jackbauer Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 The idea that God owes no one forgiveness, and is under no obligation to save anyone from his own punishment. Since apparently we all deserve to burn in hell forever, God is doing more than enough by choosing to let anyone get away with their sins. For this post, I'm completely ignoring the horrible idea that everyone deserves to burn in hell for not reaching an impossible standard. Because what I really hate is the wording in the arguement. "Obligation" "Owe". As if it would be a big deal for God to forgive us for things which in no way affects him. When I think of someone doing something they have no obligation to do, I think of parents saving up money to buy their kid a car. They wouldn't be bad parents for not buying the car, but they did it anyway, even if the kid didn't necessarly do anything to earn it. They put their money into making sure Jimmy had a car so he isn't justified in complaining that it's a used car. But lets come up with another example. Let's say that Jimmy and Sarah, normally good kids, both come home with Ds on their report card. Jimmy is kicked out of the house, forced to live on his own despite being only 15. Sarah sticks up for Jimmy, claiming that it's not fair that Jimmy is kicked out of the house for something so minor. The parents then say that if they were fair, Sarah would have been kicked out too. Infact, they both would have been kicked out a long time ago. Parents proceed to list all of the kids mistakes and offenses, claiming that they gave them more chances then owed and are still being generous in allowing Sarah a chance to turn her grades around. Sarah would probably spend the rest of her childhood on edge feeling unloved and more like a burden to her parents. And I'm not even getting into Jimmy. As far as God not being obligated to forgive us, I think it's obvious which example is a more accurate analogy. One involves parents sacrificing money to buy their kid a car and another involved parents kicking their kid out of their house for failing to reach a standard. The kid's basic eccentials to living (their parents love and support) is something they cannot even take for granted. Yet when you're a Christian (particularly a Calvinist), you're made to feel that your basic living eccentials are something that can be taken away and you would have no right to complain. Just like the second parenting example, it's an abusive horrific concept that should be treated with much contempt. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Like lots of christian arguments, it boils down to "might makes right". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 "eccentials"!! You're not from the states I gather? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyanaprajna0 Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 It is a horrible wording to an even more horrible argument. And if you want to get real technical about it, since god knew what would happen, but allowed it anyway, it is his fault. If he's supposedly all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving, then he could have stopped it at any time, even before it happened, and if he loved us as much as he's said to, then he most certainly would have. But you're analogy is better, and it's similar to one I've used against xtians. As a father myself, I find it interesting when xtians use their arguments like that, as I've never felt that way about my kids. I'd protect them and take care of them to the best of my ability, and even further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivingLife Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 There are no perfect parents but I think most parents love is unconditional - no matter how bad kids screw up. I always dread the thought something might happen to them, really have no idea how I would deal with something like that. then the fundies worship this dickhead of a father who has no compunction whatsoever of tossing the majority of his kids into a lake of fire and suggest this is what true love is about. I am not a perfect father, nor was my dad, but neither of us were so fucked up like yahwe, even in our weakest moments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 As far as God not being obligated to forgive us Of course he's not, but it shows his character and personality, and it stinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherJosh Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 I find it offensive because simply by existing...something we didn't choose, we automatically deserve hell. Imagine the thought process of a being that creates a self aware autonomous being and decides to torture it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackbauer Posted March 29, 2012 Author Share Posted March 29, 2012 "eccentials"!! You're not from the states I gather? I am, but my spelling sucks. It didn't help that it was 1 in the morning when I posted this rant. It is a horrible wording to an even more horrible argument. And if you want to get real technical about it, since god knew what would happen, but allowed it anyway, it is his fault. If he's supposedly all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving, then he could have stopped it at any time, even before it happened, and if he loved us as much as he's said to, then he most certainly would have. But you're analogy is better, and it's similar to one I've used against xtians. As a father myself, I find it interesting when xtians use their arguments like that, as I've never felt that way about my kids. I'd protect them and take care of them to the best of my ability, and even further. Yeah arguements such as that gives me the feeling that God resents us as his children and any chance he gives us, he does grumply. Kind of like a kid begging his stubborn parents for something and them caving in only to shut him up. There's obviously no love there. God feels we deserve the worst, and thus anything less than that is some great act of mercy. That's pretty much the basic teachings of the faith. Only God couldn't just forgive us, he had to let himself to crucified in human form just for his own twisted sense of justice to be satisfied. When I looked at it that way, I felt horribly guilty and unworthy. Here I was being let off easy and all I do is screw it up. Other Christians can say "oh that's not how it works", but when they believe the same stuff, it's hard to get around those feelings. My parents, mere sinful humans (according to Christian dogma), have been infinately more loving and caring then the fundie God. Fundie God demands that we feel like dirty rotten sinners so that any good thing that happens feels like a big deal. But my mom and dad actually care about my self worth and emotional health, unlike "God" who can only make himself understood through some wierd dogma. Unfortunately, I have also known people who have been emotionally blackmailed by their parents, who are usually pretty conservative and religious... It's pretty telling... As far as God not being obligated to forgive us Of course he's not, but it shows his character and personality, and it stinks. So true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 It's like all the sheeple thanking god they survived the tornado. Why did he send the fucker in the first place, idiots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 I think they've got to know that God didn't send the tornadoes any more than he saved them from its predations, or they'd have shot bigger and just prayed for him to not send tornadoes ever again at all. Now wouldn't that be a hell of a lot more impressive than a stupid parking spot on Christmas Eve? I'm making myself giggle here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholiKitty Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 I think they've got to know that God didn't send the tornadoes any more than he saved them from its predations, or they'd have shot bigger and just prayed for him to not send tornadoes ever again at all. Now wouldn't that be a hell of a lot more impressive than a stupid parking spot on Christmas Eve? I'm making myself giggle here. I swear that I'm not trolling and super swear that I don't endorse the thought I'm about to present. I'm just playing "Devil's" Advocate because I had a thought that was fascinating: **What about all the terrible things he hasn't done to us? There's probably things much worse than tornadoes/hurricanes/earthquakes/tsunamis/lost-car-keys that we don't even know about because he protects us from them. Things like being spontaneously turning into salt by explosions in spite of the human body's large carbon content. He only lets the minorly terrible things happen to keep heathens on their toes, give Fox news something else to be indignant about, and inspire people with the way he took the time to not kill everyone. The parents could have just shot Jimmy, but they didn't.** I hope that doesn't hurt as much to read as it hurt to write. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackbauer Posted March 29, 2012 Author Share Posted March 29, 2012 I think they've got to know that God didn't send the tornadoes any more than he saved them from its predations, or they'd have shot bigger and just prayed for him to not send tornadoes ever again at all. Now wouldn't that be a hell of a lot more impressive than a stupid parking spot on Christmas Eve? I'm making myself giggle here. I swear that I'm not trolling and super swear that I don't endorse the thought I'm about to present. I'm just playing "Devil's" Advocate because I had a thought that was fascinating: **What about all the terrible things he hasn't done to us? There's probably things much worse than tornadoes/hurricanes/earthquakes/tsunamis/lost-car-keys that we don't even know about because he protects us from them. Things like being spontaneously turning into salt by explosions in spite of the human body's large carbon content. He only lets the minorly terrible things happen to keep heathens on their toes, give Fox news something else to be indignant about, and inspire people with the way he took the time to not kill everyone. The parents could have just shot Jimmy, but they didn't.** I hope that doesn't hurt as much to read as it hurt to write. Or "my spouse could have broken every bone in my body, but he/she choose to only break my arms. Isn't he amazing!!" I've heard another variation that we don't thank God for the good things in life and only blame him for the bad. My counters. -The good things are hard to enjoy with the threat of hellfire hanging over my head. -It's also emotional blackmail. Kind of like a parent buying their kid a piano, but expecting them to master it. The gift of salvation is very much like that. It's not much of a gift when it becomes something you *have* to do, especially when the alternative is eternal hellfire. -Also, the good things do not negate the bad. The spouse example: "Sure he beats me and calls me a dirty whore, but he also buys me diamond rings". Ironically, the fundies use a similar arguement with regard to the "good person" test. Claiming that we automatically deserve punishment for the bad we do and no good can make up for it (only the brutal death of a God figure). As if our petty mistakes justify all the horrible thing God threatens us with if we don't comply. Again, I point to my second parent example in the OP. I guess when you believe that god's willing to condemn someone to an eternity of torture, what's a few tornado's? The whole system claims that god is loving and merciful just because he doesn't kill us and send us to hell right away. But I guess the same could be said for mob bosses who are not going to put a bullet in your head instantly for a late payment. Or even better, they pay the debt themselves, but demand that you be their errand boy for the next several years. Either way, you're still have to have to pay up in one way or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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