The Birth Date of Jeus

[Heimdall]

Here is a thread that I posted elsewere, but is still valid here:

 

It’s a subject that Beowulf broached originally and is much more important than it seems at first glance. The question is – “Exactly when was Jesus born?” We have only two of the gospels giving any information about the birth of Jesus, Matthew and Luke. Mark, the oldest of the canonical gospels (between 85 and 105 CE) makes no mention of it at all and neither does the “youngest” gospel John (probably 124 CE or later). Matthew has Jesus born during the reign of Herod the Great (73 – 4 BCE) and Luke has his birth during the Syrian governorship of “Cyrenius” (real name – Publius Sulpicius Quirinius) (6 – 9 CE), at least a 10 year difference exists between the dates reported by the two.

 

This discrepancy is aggravated by the reports of two later Bishops of the early church, Irenaeus and Epiphanius. In Against Heresies, Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons (125-202 CE) stated: "From the 40th and 50th year a man begins to decline towards old age, which our Lord possessed while He still fulfilled the office of a Teacher, even as the Gospel and all the elders testify; those who were conversant in Asia with John, the disciple of the Lord, affirming that John conveyed to them that information. And he remained among them up to the times of Trajan. (reigned 98 to 117 CE)" This statement does several things, it shows a lack of knowledge of the gospels at a period they supposedly were being circulated, it intimates that Jesus lived well past middle age (and if you use the “accepted” year of birth, would have been over 100 years old when he died) and it shows a singular lack of knowledge of the physical existence of Jesus. Living less than a century after the supposed time of Jesus, you would think that a Bishop of the Church would be cognizant with the basic facts of the personage that he extolled as the Savior of the World, instead we find a gentleman that flies in the face of the gospels and reports a long life, no mention of crucifixion or resurrection, and journeys in Asia in the presence of the Apostle John!

 

The second bishop, Epiphanius of Salamis (310-403 CE) reported in Haer 29.3: “For with the advent of the Christ, the succession of the princes from Judah, who reigned until the Christ Himself, ceased. The order failed and stopped at the time when He was born in Bethlehem of Judaea, in the days of Alexander, who was of high-priestly and royal race …And this Alexander, one of the anointed and ruling princes placed the crown on his own head ...After this a foreign king, Herod, and those who were no longer of the family of David, assumed the crown." Now we have a bishop of a later period that would lead us to believe that Jesus was born at least 66 years prior to the “accepted” date. It seems at that late a date the personal information on Jesus is not readily available, even to members of the hierarchy of the church! Since Salamis (an island just off the coast of Athens) was well inside the area supposedly evangelized by the Apostles, it would seem that this information would be readily available to laity and clergy alike! With these last two reports and that of the gospels of Luke and Matthews, the period of discrepancy has been opened from 10 years to well over a century or nearly 2 centuries, depending on how you look at it (Alexander Janneus ruled Judea from 103 to 76 BCE and Trajan ruled Rome from 98 to 117 CE)!

 

Now what does all this have to do with the “price of tea”? Good question! Have you ever noticed that one of the arguments for the validity of the gospels is that they came out so soon after the crucifixion. If you can’t pin point the date of birth and date of death of a character that is only reported in a small collection of theistic literature, with no supporting contemporary secular material, you can by no means state how soon after the execution these gospels were written. You might possibly be able to pinpoint when they were actually written (this is not possible at present, although evidence for a date later than most Christians want is strong), but you can’t say how close in time they were to the actual events! There were several Jesus characters in the preceding years before the currently held period of Jesus’ life that could be the very model or models that his persona was built on. One, Jesus ben Pandira is believed to have been the “Great Teacher” of the Essene sect of Judaism. It is entirely possible that Christianity is a mere spin off of the Essene sect, sanitized and modified for Gentiles and perpetrated by Paul and Peter.

 

Without a valid birth date and a valid contemporary and secularly supported date of death/execution, the very existence of Jesus is called into question. We actually know the traditional birth date of his closest competitor, Mithra. Mithra was born on Dec 25th 272 BCE of the virgin Anahita, in a cave in the Persian province of Sistan (did I get that right Mythra?). We know the basic life information (Mithra ascended into heaven in 208 BCE) on this Savior that Christians deny, yet we have no real idea of when their Savior was born or died! With a singular lack of non-contradictory information from the early Christians and two gospels that do not mention his birth (only his death) and two that disagree by at least 10 years on when he was born, one might easily draw the conclusion that the true Christianity (Gnosticism) was cut out and replaced by a copy of the Mystery Cults so popular in the Roman Empire of that period! Does anyone wish to show us a valid birth date (agreeing with both gospels and history) and clear this all up? - Heimdall

[Gnosis of Disbelief]

Christians also have another problem with their nativity story -

Bethlehem of Judaea, where Jesus was supposedly born, did

not exist during the Herodian period. See the article entitled,

"Where Was Jesus Born," by Aviram Oshri, a senior archaeologist

with the Israeli Antiquities Authority, in the November/December

issue of Archaeology.

 

Following the six-Day War in 1967, surveys in Bethlehem

showed plenty of Iron Age pottery, but excavations by several

Israeli archaeologiests revealed no artifacts at all from the Early

Roman or Herodian periods.  In fact, with the single exception of

a 50-year old Jordanian publication that mentions Herodian

pottery sherds found in a corner of the church [the Church of the

Nativity in Bethlehem, dating to the 3rd century AD], there is

surprisingly no archaeological evidence that ties Bethlehem in

Judaea to the period in which Jesus would have been born. 

Furthermore, in this time the aqueduct from Solomon's Pools to

Jerusalem ran through the area of Bethlehem.  This fact

strengthens the likelihood of an absence of settlement at the site,

as, according to the Roman architect Vitruvius, no aqueduct

passes through the heart of a city.  Only about a half-mile outside

Bethlehem in Judea have some Herodian-period remains been

found, and it may be possible that people had resettled elsewhere

nearby during this time.

 

A condensed version of this article is available

here.

 

So, not only is Jesus' date of birth in question, his place of birth

is in question, also.

[Heimdall]

Great find, I will put that on the other website, if you don't mind - Heimdall

[Gnosis of Disbelief]

Great find, I will put that on the other website, if you don't mind - Heimdall

107859[/snapback]

 

 

Not a problem, go right ahead!

[Mythra]

Mithra was born on Dec 25th 272 BCE of the virgin Anahita, in a cave in the Persian province of Sistan (did I get that right Mythra?). 

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Hmm. Not sure about this one, Heimdall. Mitra was mentioned in a treaty signed between the Mittani (an Aryan tribe) and the Hittites, signed c. 1375 BCE. That's the first mention I've ever seen of Mithra.

 

I'm not sure I've ever seen anything that references Mithra as a historical person. Only as a deity. Now, Zarathustra, I understand to be an historical prophet.

 

Where did you get the date 272 BCE?

[Mythra]

As I understand it, the December 25 date even precedes Mithra. It's based on the winter solstice, and has been celebrated by Solar cults as far back as we have any recorded history.

[Mythra]

I've read about the Irenaeus account before, and even about the supporting passage in the bible (where the Pharisees tell Jesus that "you are trying to teach us, and you are not yet 50...") why would the gospel writer say that if it was believed that Jesus died at 33?

 

But the Epiphanius account is new to me. Interesting that Jesus' "birth" was still not nailed down (not even close) by the end of the 4th century.

 

Irenaeus was so manic about stamping out the charismatic movement (lead by Montanus, Maximilla, and Priscilla) and the gnostics (Valentinus and Marcion), yet this architect of "orthodoxy" had Jesus alive at the end of the first century??

 

This shit just doesn't add up.

[Ouroboros]

As I understand it, the December 25 date even precedes Mithra.  It's based on the winter solstice, and has been celebrated by Solar cults as far back as we have any recorded history.

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I haven't studied this, but I bet it was the Sumerians that started it. Because they were the first great society with education, science, math and astrology/astronomy. It could be that they established the first calendars and star/sun/moon movements and patters in the seasons. Were they about 5-6000 years ago?

[Mythra]

You know, I read that book "A History of God", and in it they talked quite a bit about the early solar religions. You might be right, Hans. It might have started with the Sumerians (although - who knows what people were doing 5,000 years or more before that)

 

I should have better retention of that book, but I have CRAFT disease.

 

(can't remember a fuckin thing)

[Taphophilia]

You know, I read that book "A History of God", and in it they talked quite a bit about the early solar religions. You might be right, Hans.  It might have started with the Sumerians (although - who knows what people were doing 5,000 years or more before that)

 

I should have better retention of that book, but I have CRAFT disease.

 

(can't remember a fuckin thing)

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Mythra,

 

I read that book too and I don't remember a lot of it. Though, I have to admit it took my right leaning brain forever to get through. I kept having to re-read everything to fully understand it. If I remember correctly. It had a page of footnotes for every two paragraphs.

[Ouroboros]

You know, I read that book "A History of God", and in it they talked quite a bit about the early solar religions. You might be right, Hans.  It might have started with the Sumerians (although - who knows what people were doing 5,000 years or more before that)

 

I should have better retention of that book, but I have CRAFT disease.

 

(can't remember a fuckin thing)

108122[/snapback]

CRAFT? Never heard of before. I'm borderline ADD. Part of why I'm talking so frigging much, and often, and can't concentrate that well. And I can't remember things either. But I'm fairly good in analyzing and doing abstract thinking. So math, science and computers works well for me, but history and language... not that good.

 

Anyway, not to spin of in a side venue here, I'm sure sun worship and all that stuff existed before the Sumerians, but it's very likely they collected it and made an official "orthodoxy" of those ideas.

 

(Now my curiosity got awaken here.)

[Mythra]

CRAFT (can't remember a fuckin thing) disease starts out as CRS (can't remember shit) disorder. It progresses until you end up with IAGNS (it's all gone now syndrome)

[Ouroboros]

CRAFT (can't remember a fuckin thing) disease starts out as CRS (can't remember shit) disorder.  It progresses until you end up with IAGNS (it's all gone now syndrome)

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I guess I'm at the CRS level then!

[Ouroboros]

But I should remember more about the SUMmerians since I'm ADD!

[Mythra]

Here's an interesting article about Anahita and the "mother goddesses" that preceded christianity by a couple thousand years.

[Gnosis of Disbelief]

As I understand it, the December 25 date even precedes Mithra.  It's based on the winter solstice, and has been celebrated by Solar cults as far back as we have any recorded history.

108112[/snapback]

I haven't studied this, but I bet it was the Sumerians that started it. Because they were the first great society with education, science, math and astrology/astronomy. It could be that they established the first calendars and star/sun/moon movements and patters in the seasons. Were they about 5-6000 years ago?

108120[/snapback]

 

 

Hans, I think your date is about right. IIRC, the Sumerian civilization

is usually thought to have begun around 3000 BCE. As to who started

revering the winter solstice, that is an interesting question indeed. I

wouldn't be surprised if the practice goes deep into pre-history, so that

no attribution could ever really be made.

[Megistias]

As I understand it, the December 25 date even precedes Mithra.  It's based on the winter solstice, and has been celebrated by Solar cults as far back as we have any recorded history.

108112[/snapback]

 

 

Indeed, that is as soon as someone could be expected to notice a change in the Sun's perceived movement through the sky.

 

It would seem tied to the introduction of agriculture and permanent dwellings.

[MQTA]

As I understand it, the December 25 date even precedes Mithra.  It's based on the winter solstice, and has been celebrated by Solar cults as far back as we have any recorded history.

108112[/snapback]

I haven't studied this, but I bet it was the Sumerians that started it. Because they were the first great society with education, science, math and astrology/astronomy. It could be that they established the first calendars and star/sun/moon movements and patters in the seasons. Were they about 5-6000 years ago?

 

After reading halexandria.org I guess the start of the Hebrew calendar goes back to the Sumerians, too.