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Goodbye Jesus

All Authority Comes From God?


Denyoz

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I find this Bible passage a bit disturbing.

 

Romans 13:1-7

 

1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

 

So is this total bullshit? Since there is no God... where do the authorities that exist come from? Are they really serving us for our good or serving themselves?

 

No wonder that the established authorities love christianity and churches are tax-exempt. With teachings like this, they can get away with almost anything. They were appointed by God himself!

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yes, haven't you often heard Christians demanding of the non-believer, "where do you get your authority for right and wrong?" "What's your authority for saying that?" etc.

 

I always thought that since the Enlightenment (Locke et al.) "we" (i.e. the so-called West) have had a social contract theory of government. And the founding fathers of the US talked about how many scoundrels will worm their way into govt. Winston Churchill said something like democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.

 

It certainly looks to me as though many of the authorities are serving themselves, and elected officials serving the monied interests that got them into office. What else would I prefer, though? A serious monarchy would be great if there were really a good king who would choose good ministers, but.... tried many times. I won't run through all the possibilities. Many anarchy would be good if Nivek lived closer!

 

I do agree that many politicians love religion because it organizes people, makes them easier to manipulate, and gives the politicos cover so they can get away with stuff.

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I find this Bible passage a bit disturbing.

 

Romans 13:1-7

 

1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

 

So is this total bullshit? Since there is no God... where do the authorities that exist come from?

 

They come from conflict between humans. The passage you quoted shows how Paul was trying to carve out a niche for his private religion. He wants it to be legal in the Roman world.

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Guest wester

This tripe is useful for whatever gangster regime happens to be on top of the social totem pole at this particular time.

 

The Chinese have a similar concept called "The Mandate of Heaven" (translates literally as the mandate of the sky since they don't really have a western idea of heaven). Same sort of BS. It is a self-referential justification for whatever is happening now.

 

Real authority should come from yourself, but we are trapped in these social constructs built on collectively accepted and enforced logical fallacies so we need to develop ability to see outside this kind of perceptual prison.

 

Good Luck

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This is the debate that was resolved with the Enlightenment. God's authority gave way to man's authority. Authority is today theoretically established via the social contract. I say theoretically, because I don't think the social contract includes undue influence by corporate elites in the realm of public policy.

 

That passage in Romans should keep xians from taking an offensive approach to politics btw, but since the vast majority seem to have reading comprehension problems and xianity isn't truly a reflection of the book they worship, it doesn't stop them.

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I find this Bible passage a bit disturbing.

 

Romans 13:1-7

 

1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

 

So is this total bullshit? Since there is no God... where do the authorities that exist come from? Are they really serving us for our good or serving themselves?

 

No wonder that the established authorities love christianity and churches are tax-exempt. With teachings like this, they can get away with almost anything. They were appointed by God himself!

 

I find a lot bibles passages between genesis and revelation a bit disturbing. :-) Is it disturbing because you feel that god (who flooded the earth, killed entire races, etc) should be in charge? Or because there is no central authority? Or some other reason?

 

No need to worry about the infrastructure, imho. Just enjoy life from moment to moment. The authorities that exist supposedly come from what the people want (or so they say in America). Are they serving the public good or themselves? The answer is Yes! lol. But in my neck of the woods I see order and peace 99% of the time so even though there is surely corruption in places of power, I generally feel safe and if I call the cops they will come help me. The news people like to highlight the numerous bad things going on in the world because, well , nobody wants to watch good news. Yet, I can walk down the street without fear of being robbed or killed.So the partially corrupt organizations of authority are doing a pretty good job.

 

When you stop believing in god, civilization stays about the same. Only your thinking changes. Lots of people of different beliefs manage to interact everyday and provide the kind of life you experience. Some believe god is in charge. Others dont. Those beliefs and non-beliefs are all going on at the same time.

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For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong.

Wrong when it was written and wrong today. People are ruled by force and they always were. Some masters are less obvious about it; that's the only difference between the various seats of authority. Every despot, king and president claims to have God on his side (save the rare atheistic regime).

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The divine right of kings: "the doctrine in defense of monarchical absolutism, which asserted that kings derived their authority from God and could not therefore be held accountable for their actions by any earthly authority such as a parliament. Originating in Europe, the divine-right theory can be traced to the medieval conception of God’s award of temporal power to the political ruler, paralleling the award of spiritual power to the church". (Excerpt from Encyclopedia Britannica, online)

 

The Reader's Digest version of the 'divine right of kings' is here: http://faculty.histo.../367/367-04.htm

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  • 10 months later...

The person who wrote Romans 13 was later beheaded by the state. Thanks God!  God's "only begotten son" was also murdered by the state.  Thanks God!

 

After all, if all authority is set it place by God, well, he's pretty much responsible for every tyrannical atrocity to have taken place.  Thanks God! 

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Guest r3alchild

I was told that scripture applys to authorities that endorse fair and justifible laws. Those goverments that do are acting under gods authority. Well thats what I was taught in the crispy christian faith.

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Yup, anything to make it sound better than it appears.

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This tripe is useful for whatever gangster regime happens to be on top of the social totem pole at this particular time.

 

The Chinese have a similar concept called "The Mandate of Heaven" (translates literally as the mandate of the sky since they don't really have a western idea of heaven). Same sort of BS. It is a self-referential justification for whatever is happening now.

 

Real authority should come from yourself, but we are trapped in these social constructs built on collectively accepted and enforced logical fallacies so we need to develop ability to see outside this kind of perceptual prison.

 

Good Luck

Aw, you got there before me. Hilariously, the Mandate of Heaven was exactly the snarky counter-example I was going to use, so I hope you don't mind if I take that ball and ramble with it. It's really interesting, because Chinese governments operate on an inverse of the European model of "God's political regent on Earth". While Europeans had political realities they have to back up with divine providence, they do so in a different way. The King was nigh-untouchable (or projected that idea) by calling himself a proxy for God's will. That's why it was such a big deal to kill a King. You even get semi-religious cults crop up when that happens. (Or at least the paranoia that they would.) Charles I of England, for example. Note the religious overtones, and use of the word martyr. They do mean that literally. Or, for francophiles, poor hapless Louis XVI. Note sacrifice angle, and trophy, or religious relic stuff. Ew. Anyway, while European Kings tried to make themselves safe by calling themselves God's authority, the Chinese were operating more on Thunderdome rules:

 

Chinese legitimation of power had more to do with after-the-fact history writing. The Mandate of Heaven worked in a different way. An Emperor's success was considered a direct gage of how much he held Heaven's Mandate to rule. His failures, from famines, to wars, to uprisings, were considered proof of his unworthiness, and, if one should break his power, then whoever took over was considered more worthy. The first order of business for a new dynasty was to make a history of the previous one (preferably making the last King or Emperor look as bad as possible, to prove why he failed). If a King's power was like a bridge, the Europeans tried to make it safe by convincing people not to drive heavy vehicles over it. If a Chinese Emperor or King failed, that was like a too-heavy vehicle breaking the bridge, at which point it was deemed too weak, and a new one was needed. The proof was in the pudding: control territory successfully, and you have the Mandate to, um, control it. Lose it, however, and whoever takes it over has the authority and ability to succeed you. If a King or Emperor sucked enough, the people had a RIGHT, actually, to overthrow and replace him (of course, he had a right to brutally suppress it, and if successful, then Heaven favoured him after all). That's why China has so many, and so vicious, uprisings, and civil wars and so on.

This whole thing is a mixed bag, for historians. While European Kings could do no wrong, to their supporters, Chinese Kings and Emperors have a boatload of personal information about them... written by their enemies. So, it usually boils down to: was Last King So-and-So really a baby-eating lecherous monstrosity? Or what? The pattern is simple: the first emperor of anything is always made up to be awesome unleaded (sometimes a spectacular a-hole, though, if he was also practically the last.) and the last is always a total disaster, with no redeeming qualifications. (He lost, after all.) The first always looks so good, to keep the Mandate of Heaven thing going. If the most competent doesn't succeed, it shoots the whole thing all to heck. That would be really bad for everyone trying to take over.

 

What happens if an Emperor or King can't control all of it? A three-way-tie, let's say? Things get face-crushingly EPIC, that's what.

 

Edit: Blargh, I had to leave, and now I'm back. I guess what this boils down to is... No. No, authority doesn't come from God, authority, in all it's massive diversity, comes from what people are willing to give that legitimacy to. On some level, we grant it. It's a sort of social quorum sensing thing: enough people on the boat? Then it's legit, to the degree you're able to enforce it. The Chinese Mandate of Heaven was all about justifying the brute-force seizure of power, after the fact. As long as your rebellion was a success, it got the stamp of approval. God only comes into it in Europe... for about the span of the fall of Rome to the fall of Absolutist Monarchism.

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Authority resides in the hands of those who want it, and take it. Became obvious to me quite early in the piece that these idiots in church who took authority took it because of ego and power plays. The behaviour of christians was what convinced me nothing supernatural was going on.

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Yup we're to know them by their fruit. Then Christians themselves day the only difference between us and then is they're forgiven and they're not perfect.

 

But yeah. You have a job opening available for a manager position? Prepare to interview a lot of the attracted to authority types.

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