Guest sugRsuccubus Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 So, a lot of you have heard me, for a good month or so, in chat repetitively bemoaning the struggles of anxiety and depression and battles with circular thought and the return of some nagging religious thoughts, along with guilt, shame... It's been four years since my deconversion. I trust science. I trust my knowledge. I trust logic. I trust reason. I trust reality. Yet, my mind has locked on to this circular reasoning, the old conditioning. How.... how do I get myself back into place? How... I feel very alone (despite being literally alone in this, friends are few and far between and the one I have is patient, but has no understanding personally of what I'm going through). The sad thing is, what really created this depression was my anxiety disorder. I'm sure the painful occurrences that have happened over the last year and the spiraling into a deep, deep depression helped create this anxiety... and knowing all of this does help to get my mind back in order to a great degree. However, in living life the conditioned thoughts have sprung up again and I find it very difficult to enjoy life or feel like myself again. I just need some guidance... Some help, suggestions in getting through this fog. I came through a lot of it this morning, yet I still have moments of fear when a religious "feeling" or "thought" occurs and it can become very painful and distracting. Help. That is really all I can sum it up to. Can someone please help me to get through this... I know I am strong, and it is what drives me forward. I simply am in need of company.. support... encouragement... guidance... whatever you kind heathens are willing to offer. And in advance, thank you, thank you, thank you! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Gets some books on OCD. Uncontrolled thoughts are a big part of it, at least in my experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Yet, my mind has locked on to this circular reasoning, the old conditioning. How.... how do I get myself back into place? Can you describe the "circular reasoning" to which you refer? I find it difficult to offer anything unless I understand what you are going through. But even without understanding exactly to what you are referring, I did see words like depression and anxiety disorder. I know from experience that depression can have a profound impact on how one reacts to the world and the way one thinks about things. It seems to me that it is the depression that you need to focus on. I'm not sure if it is a type of situational depression or something more profound. Have you sought professional treatment? On meds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llwellyn Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I highly recommend seeing a professional therapist. Not all of them are created equal though. Talk to one who gives you homework assignments and helps you to change your thinking and behavior. Don't just pay someone to listen to you -- your stuffed animals can do that. In my moment of deepest need, my life was turned around for the good by a transgendered therapist who employed cognitive behavioral therapy. Life is good. Beyond the clouds above your head there are stars in the sky that shine. Awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sugRsuccubus Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I absolutely agree with both of you, that I should see a professional. However, I have no insurance, nor the funds to do so. By circular reasoning, I'm referring to the cycle the mind is locked in when it believes in something that is irrational. For instance, the classic christian stance that if god does not answer a prayer, it is for the best, but if god does answer a prayer it is also for the best. For instance, a christian saying basically, god did not save my son from leukemia like I prayed and prayed and prayed he would, but this must be god's divine plan. Instead of thinking, prayer doesn't work because I prayed for something reasonable and that a loving god would answer, and yet it did not come true. Does this make more sense? I hope so. I'm probably pretty confusing right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I absolutely agree with both of you, that I should see a professional. However, I have no insurance, nor the funds to do so. By circular reasoning, I'm referring to the cycle the mind is locked in when it believes in something that is irrational. For instance, the classic christian stance that if god does not answer a prayer, it is for the best, but if god does answer a prayer it is also for the best. Basically, god did not save my son from leukemia like I prayed and prayed and prayed he would, but this must be god's divine plan. Instead of thinking, prayer doesn't work because I prayed for something reasonable and that a loving god would answer, and yet it did not come true. Does this make more sense? I hope so. I'm probably pretty confusing right now. First and foremost, I am so sorry to hear of your son and leukemia. That must have been a terrible thing to go through and I offer you my sincere condolences. With the example of your son, I think I see what you mean. It seems to me that any parent who has a child suffering from a terrible disease would never want to give up hope for a cure, even if medical science had nothing to offer. I don't blame anyone in your situation if they turn to their concept of god and ask for a miracle. I can also understand why one would rationalize away god's failure to do that which was obviously something this god should want to do. That could make your son's death seem meaningless and, absent his healing, the next best thing would be for it to have some kind of deep and profound meaning. I don't think you will find meaning in his death somehow tied to the concept of god. Rather, maybe you should try not trying to find meaning in his death at all. Rather, look for meaning in his life, in the time you had together, what he meant to you and what you meant to him. That is where you will find the meaning. In other words, try leaving god out of it altogether. Once you do, then you may come to see that there was no involvement by any divine being. But there was a relationship between a parent and son which lasted your son's whole short but wonderful and quite meaningful life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sugRsuccubus Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Oh OvercameFaith!!! *hugs* I'm so sorry! That was a hypothetical example... And I realize now the way I wrote it, it looked as if I were writing about my own experience! *big hugs* You are so sweet, I'm sorry I misled you with my terrible writing skills!!!! Wow, I was not paying attention when I wrote that. I'm embarrassed I edited my above post to prevent further confusion. I'm sorry guys. My mind is not 100% right now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Oh OvercameFaith!!! *hugs* I'm so sorry! That was a hypothetical example... And I realize now the way I wrote it, it looked as if I were writing about my own experience! *big hugs* You are so sweet, I'm sorry I misled you with my terrible writing skills!!!! Wow, I was not paying attention when I wrote that. I'm embarrassed I edited my above post to prevent further confusion. I'm sorry guys. My mind is not 100% right now... No problem. I actually feel better now!!!! Okay, then take what I said as me responding to your hypothetical because it still fits. Meaning is not found in god, but in our lives. Try finding meaning in your life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 So, a lot of you have heard me, for a good month or so, in chat repetitively bemoaning the struggles of anxiety and depression and battles with circular thought and the return of some nagging religious thoughts, along with guilt, shame... I must of logged on at the wrong times because whenever I see you in chant you seem like a nice, well-adjusted and normal person. It's been four years since my deconversion. I trust science. I trust my knowledge. I trust logic. I trust reason. I trust reality. Yet, my mind has locked on to this circular reasoning, the old conditioning. How.... how do I get myself back into place? How... I feel very alone (despite being literally alone in this, friends are few and far between and the one I have is patient, but has no understanding personally of what I'm going through). The sad thing is, what really created this depression was my anxiety disorder. I'm sure the painful occurrences that have happened over the last year and the spiraling into a deep, deep depression helped create this anxiety... and knowing all of this does help to get my mind back in order to a great degree. However, in living life the conditioned thoughts have sprung up again and I find it very difficult to enjoy life or feel like myself again. I just need some guidance... Some help, suggestions in getting through this fog. I came through a lot of it this morning, yet I still have moments of fear when a religious "feeling" or "thought" occurs and it can become very painful and distracting. Help. That is really all I can sum it up to. Can someone please help me to get through this... I know I am strong, and it is what drives me forward. I simply am in need of company.. support... encouragement... guidance... whatever you kind heathens are willing to offer. And in advance, thank you, thank you, thank you! All I can give you is someone who will listen. I'm going to be taking notes on the replies you get. I might try some of that myself. Hang in there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblueep Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Are your parents believers? I think you need to hang around some people of like (rational) mind. Perhaps there is a local humanist/freethinking group. 2honest and I are going to start attending local meetups with these types of groups here. Going it alone is certainly not going to help you break out of old thought patterns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wester Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 See "Cognitive Bahavior Therapy" - make and keep yourself aware of thought patterns. Supress the negative patterns, but you might also want to spend some time concentrating at least briefly on some odd or destructive thoughts to really take them apart and try to get to the bottom of what when who where how and why. Try to look at or experience them objectively. This might dissipate them or take the edge off them. Cognitive Therapy is not the be all and end all, but it is a way. Read Bruce Levine's Blog for an interesting perspective on this: http://brucelevine.n...ce-levine-blog/ Get out and talk to others. New people can give you new ideas about how to orient yourself and create new, more positive thought patterns. Try music, dancing (i like salsa) or some other low pressure social activity. Interaction with other humans who are not religion-driven can be quite wonderful if you've been living in a mental black box like my family did for years. You might also just go to a local college and audit a psychology class, or a philosophy class or a neuroscience class. Talk informally to professors, psychologists, and doctors. Once you drop into that doctor/patient relationship, certain dynamics can result that may or may not be beneficial. Keep things light and in the spirit of exploration and understanding and things will progress as your awareness grows. I used to go hang out at the college bookstore and just look at and read and sometimes buy the books sectioned off into different classes - like the Psych 401 graduate texts, the various 600 page hard core Science books, Philosophy, Poetry, Sociology and on and on...It was very useful for me without having to pay tuition. My mom went through a rather serious period because she more or less was plagued by deep, passionate philosophical thoughts and probably needed to attend and write long papers in a graduate level course in Philosophy or Psychology. But she was always intimidated by big universities as they might be somehow satanic. So she stuck herself in Bible studies with a bunch of redneck patriachal religio-yahoos who filled her head with a lot of circular apologetics and self-hating useless crap that sent her into crippling bouts of anxiety and depression. Don't get stuck too deeply in a rut. There are lots of helpful points of view out there. The world can and will take care of you if keep your mind open and keep seeking. Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dory Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 hi hun, i know where you're coming from. I've just crawled out of a serious bout of depressions, caused by trying to stay Christian and gay while the majority of the religious population puts me down. And I'm still recovering from the effects, mainly in the form of anxiety. It DOES get better, I'm still not there, but knowing the reasons surely helps and you'll start to move forward from there (slowly but surely). My doc gave me some free CBT material which I plan on looking into when I really need it, because a lot of the time now, I'll be anxious and not completely sure of the cause (more like a conditioned reaction of my body I think), and even that is starting to fade bit by bit. I'm also on citalopram, which helps, and I notice the difference when I forget to take it. I think you can do CBT stuff in your time for free, there's a lot of stuff online, and once i go through all the resources, I'll post them somewhere on here so you can use them. I guess a counsellor will help, and I would recommend it, but its not everything since I think the problem is just you trying to get out of a cycle. (My dad calls it 'stinking thinking!') And I know exactly how that feels like. Sometimes, however difficult, you just need to say to yourself that this is a load of bollocks and think about something else for a while. It's hard, and its taken me a long time, but I'm beginning to focus on other areas of my life that I've neglected in the course of the past few months of anxiety and depression, such as uni, career and meeting new people. I wish you all the best, and it WILL GET BETTER. Just keep believing that I hope my comment helps, but message me if you want to talk and rant ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Hi SugR! I agree with wester: cognitive behavioural therapy is really good for changing how you think. There is also a great little book out there by Dr. David Burns, The Feeling Good Handbook. There are lots of great nuggets in there. Here is something that may help you: 10 distorted thinking patterns (an excerpt can be found at http://powerstates.com/10-cognitive-thinking-errors - I am not endorsing the site, I'm just saying they captured the essence of one small part of the book). I highly recommend the book. Those with obsessive compulsive thinking may find that those thought patterns increase with stress--in which case it's a good time to think to yourself, "What is bugging me right now? What is stressing me out particularly right now?" and then deal with the underlying stress. I hope that helps! Keep us posted. We're all rooting for you! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chikirin Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 I learned in church that feelings are bad. "Faith, not feelings!" was what I was taught. I'm learning to value my feelings more, and not apologize for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traveller2 Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 sugRsuccubus your post struck a chord with me.I have had depression on an off since my teens.Just before my deconversion started I was diagnosed with anxiety.I now see how much that anxiety has affected my life inc my christian walk( i swear to god I still use those fecking expressions).I begin to wonder how much my anxiety affected my decision to get born again.I know see the anxiety as the major componant of my previous mental health states.I belive anxiety and anger caused all of my depressions. I agree with others,find a good therapist.I am not ashamed to say that I have seen therapists for much of my adult life begining at 19.I always knew when I needed to go see one again.i think I am now at the point of freedom and self actualisation where I am probably ok but if some big transistion came along I may return to one.You do get what you pay for with them. I used various meds for anxiety but settled on one here in the uk called Buspirone.No sure what they called it over there.I thought it was really good.It showed me what it was like to live day to day without anxiety.tho i am not on it now that expereince opened my eyes and helped me deal with the anxiety but its hard to explain how that process worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traveller2 Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 I learned in church that feelings are bad. "Faith, not feelings!" was what I was taught. I'm learning to value my feelings more, and not apologize for them. oh god yeah 'faith not feelings' crap fucking destroyed me back in the 1990's when I was hearing that shit spouted from pulpits.i sometime wonder where its practionioners who preached it ended up.probably deconverted too!I am learnignt o feel again and value them too my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 I learned in church that feelings are bad. "Faith, not feelings!" was what I was taught. I'm learning to value my feelings more, and not apologize for them. oh god yeah 'faith not feelings' crap fucking destroyed me back in the 1990's ......I am learnignt o feel again and value them too..... The stuff they told us to do is outrageous. Telling us to have "faith, not feelings" is not only bullshit but dangerous. It's like amputating a natural part of yourself that has developed over millions of years to benefit you in the world. To deny this is akin to plugging your ears or walking around blindfolded. I can't believe I bought into this garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VacuumFlux Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 CBT and a good therapist are great. But if affording medical care is an issue, here's some things that have helped me. Be more aware of your body. When I get stressed, by body responds with muscle aches, usually in my shoulders. When my body is sore or sick, sometimes that makes me feel stressed and then my brain makes up reasons to feel stressed instead of noticing that it's physical. As you might guess, the combination of those two points makes for quite a vicious circle (real but minor stress -> muscle aches -> brain making up more serious stress, repeat with increasing stress levels). When you start to feel upset about something, try focusing on your posture instead of your thoughts. Look for muscle aches, indigestion, scrunched up forehead, etc that could be triggering your negative thoughts. Or maybe there's a stressor in the recent past that you thought you'd gotten over, but you've still got the side effects from it in your body that need cleaned up. The other thing I've been trying to do lately when I find myself trapped in recurring negative thinking is to try to reprogram myself. I'll set aside a few minutes during which I make an effort to think happy thoughts, look at pretty pictures, do something constructive, whatever. If that's really hard to do, then I tell my negative thoughts that I'm just making myself strong enough to deal with all the very real negative things they're talking about, and that I'll be back in 5 minutes. If there is a real issue I need to deal with, it will still be there after I spend time not being unhappy but I'll be in a more positive mindset that can think of solutions. If it was an irrational bad mood, it may not come back at all. But one important point when trying to fight off negative emotions is not to repress them using guilt; you have to acknowledge them first, show them respect (that you take them seriously; a lot of my anxious thoughts come with "and no one will believe me or help me if I tell them"), and only then can you make them go away without them coming back stronger later. Oh, and don't be upset when you can't just will yourself happier. Be proud of yourself for trying and for small successes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryper Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Others have stated some very good suggestions. I would like to add to things. When you catch yourself, doing that. Stop! Second, You always have a choice. You can choose to stop and control the thoughts, or you can choose to let habit take over. Take control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sugRsuccubus Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 I just wanted to say, everyone has wonderful input I am mostly past it, feeling much more myself today. I still have the occurrence of these thoughts, but they are fading and have lost much of their strength. I think a dozen passion flower pills with 10mg of klonopin and a good night's rest did wonders for my weary mind. Now, it's just the quick ending recovery. Does anyone else here have ocd? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sugRsuccubus Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Are your parents believers? I think you need to hang around some people of like (rational) mind. Perhaps there is a local humanist/freethinking group. 2honest and I are going to start attending local meetups with these types of groups here. Going it alone is certainly not going to help you break out of old thought patterns. I'm sorry!!! I totally missed your question. Yes, I'm living with my fundy parents. Which makes life so... hard sometimes. I hate feeling like I'm oppressing them with my presence, but it's hard for me to hear xian music or be told I can't say goddamn it. It's just reinforcing the old patterns. I hope I can find a group, but really, I hate where I live. There is literally NOTHING I need here! No free mental or medical help, no groups nearby of atheists, free thinkers, or x-christians. Nothing!!!!!!!!! It's so frustrating, it is really all miles and miles away, sometimes a state away. But I will keep searching. Who knows what will turn up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chikirin Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 I'm seeing a therapist, after several months, I beginning to notice very subtle progress. Thoughts influence your emotions, which influence your behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted April 5, 2012 Moderator Share Posted April 5, 2012 Does anyone else here have ocd? Don't you think all humans have a little OCD to some degree? I have never been treated for it - but I know that my wanting things to be perfect all the time ruins a lot of life for me.............Maybe I should be on medication?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted April 5, 2012 Moderator Share Posted April 5, 2012 I agree with wester: cognitive behavioural therapy is really good for changing how you think. There is also a great little book out there by Dr. David Burns, The Feeling Good Handbook. There are lots of great nuggets in there. Here is something that may help you: 10 distorted thinking patterns (an excerpt can be found at http://powerstates.c...thinking-errors - I am not endorsing the site, I'm just saying they captured the essence of one small part of the book). I highly recommend the book. Thank you for this reminder Positivist! This list would definitly be part of my living problems. I'm going to print this off........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 I agree with wester: cognitive behavioural therapy is really good for changing how you think. There is also a great little book out there by Dr. David Burns, The Feeling Good Handbook. There are lots of great nuggets in there. Here is something that may help you: 10 distorted thinking patterns (an excerpt can be found at http://powerstates.c...thinking-errors - I am not endorsing the site, I'm just saying they captured the essence of one small part of the book). I highly recommend the book. Thank you for this reminder Positivist! This list would definitly be part of my living problems. I'm going to print this off........... Nice to see you again, Margee! I highly recommend The Feeling Good Handbook by David Burns. It does explore not only depression and anxiety but OCD as well. I know many people who have benefited from this book! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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