Poking And Prodding

[Noggy]

This would be the best forum to ask this question I would think.

 

How do you get someone who is intensely against spirituality to open themselves to the idea?

 

A good example would be a Christian, or even an militant Ex-Christian, or even someone who just has always thought these things were hogwash. Of course, it is very difficult to be able to take the first step of the journey towards self-discovery for someone, but there has to be techniques to poke and prod one into thinking about taking that first step.

 

Is the best way to lead by example? Or have you all found another way? I know most spirituality is not evangelical, but if you believe what you have is Good, and you want to help others, do you not also want to teach?

 

Thanks

[Vigile]

Not everyone wants or needs it.

[Noggy]

Not everyone wants or needs it.

 

I agree. But there are some people who were in situations that were very similar to me, I can see it in their eyes, and I can see it in their actions. I too was once opposed to spiritual practices, and it has helped me a great deal. I definitely don't want to FORCE someone to do anything they don't want to do, but how would one go about opening someones mind to the idea that it might be a good one?

[norton65ca]

why on earth (after having been through what i am assuming all of us here on this site have been through) would you want to?

Maybe I'm misinterpreting something here but anyone who comes to me to lead me into a spirituality is going to get an icy welcome, to be honest, whether that spirituality is norse gods, wicca, reading tea leaves or buddhism. I've had enough of being convinced by others about things ultimately none of us can know.

I really think everyone on this feckin' planet should leave everyone elses "spirituality" to everyone else. just my 2c.

[Noggy]

why on earth (after having been through what i am assuming all of us here on this site have been through) would you want to?

Maybe I'm misinterpreting something here but anyone who comes to me to lead me into a spirituality is going to get an icy welcome, to be honest, whether that spirituality is norse gods, wicca, reading tea leaves or buddhism. I've had enough of being convinced by others about things ultimately none of us can know.

I really think everyone on this feckin' planet should leave everyone elses "spirituality" to everyone else. just my 2c.

 

This is why I asked this question! Because people, especially people that have been harmed by a certain form of religion (in this case Christianity) naturally shirk away from all other faiths. They just ASSUME that they are bad. What do you have against Wicca? Or tea leaves? Or Buddhism? Do you actually think that they are harmful? Or are you just judging them based on your encounter with Christianity... It is this automatic shirking of spiritual practices that I am talking about.

 

What could someone like me do to get you to decide to look into an alternative practice? Keep in mind, that I too have been down the same path you have and have found it to be good.

[norton65ca]

ok, here goes.

If there was any real evidence for spiritual things being REAL, then I might be interested.

shirking? That has negative connotations.

All "revealed" religions are bunk. ALL of them, the same rules apply when we are talking about anything put forth doctrinally in any old book. Pure hocum, hogwash, bogswirl. there is ZERO evidence.

What are we left with? New Age mysticism? Been there, done that, more hocum. Astrology? Pure superstition. Reincarnation? No evidence but hearsay.

Yes, I'm shirking spiritual practices, gives me pleasure to do so as now I will not ever fall into the illogical trap of believing fairy stories and superstitious rubbish.

Present some clear evidence for life beyond what we see then I may consider it but for the time being I see an evangelist with too much time on his hands... sorry.

just my 2c. Have to fly, work calls, I'll look in later. No offense bud but no one is shirking anything of any worth.

[Noggy]

ok, here goes.

If there was any real evidence for spiritual things being REAL, then I might be interested.

shirking? That has negative connotations.

All "revealed" religions are bunk. ALL of them, the same rules apply when we are talking about anything put forth doctrinally in any old book. Pure hocum, hogwash, bogswirl. there is ZERO evidence.

What are we left with? New Age mysticism? Been there, done that, more hocum. Astrology? Pure superstition. Reincarnation? No evidence but hearsay.

Yes, I'm shirking spiritual practices, gives me pleasure to do so as now I will not ever fall into the illogical trap of believing fairy stories and superstitious rubbish.

Present some clear evidence for life beyond what we see then I may consider it but for the time being I see an evangelist with too much time on his hands... sorry.

just my 2c. Have to fly, work calls, I'll look in later. No offense bud but no one is shirking anything of any worth.

 

I would agree with you that most "revealed" religions are generally useless to the people that they arent revealed to. But what about other practices? Practices that are more about cultivating yourself and your place in this world? You seem to not have a very good understanding about what is out there. Again, this is why I asked the question. People have bad experiences and they toss it all out as "rubbish". I'm trying to figure out how I can help people get beyond this mindset. All it is is a mindset of fundamentalism, except instead of going "I BELIEVE IN JESUS AND NOTHING WILL CHANGE MY MIND" you're going "I BELIEVE IN NOTHING AND NOTHING WILL CHANGE MY MIND". Don't be so quick to disregard what you have no experience with.

[Ouroboros]

Not everyone wants or needs it.

 

I agree. But there are some people who were in situations that were very similar to me, I can see it in their eyes, and I can see it in their actions. I too was once opposed to spiritual practices, and it has helped me a great deal. I definitely don't want to FORCE someone to do anything they don't want to do, but how would one go about opening someones mind to the idea that it might be a good one?

When someone is ready, they will open their eyes. My view is that you can't open someone's mind. It has to come from themselves. But talking about the topics will help a person to realize it themselves. My analogy is like this: You and your friend are walking in a dark forest. You're both walking on two different paths, next to each other. You find a flashlight. You can light your path to make it easier to walk, and you can use the light to light up your friend's path as well. But in the end, you walk your path, and he walks his path. You just share the light.

[Noggy]

Not everyone wants or needs it.

 

I agree. But there are some people who were in situations that were very similar to me, I can see it in their eyes, and I can see it in their actions. I too was once opposed to spiritual practices, and it has helped me a great deal. I definitely don't want to FORCE someone to do anything they don't want to do, but how would one go about opening someones mind to the idea that it might be a good one?

When someone is ready, they will open their eyes. My view is that you can't open someone's mind. It has to come from themselves. But talking about the topics will help a person to realize it themselves. My analogy is like this: You and your friend are walking in a dark forest. You're both walking on two different paths, next to each other. You find a flashlight. You can light your path to make it easier to walk, and you can use the light to light up your friend's path as well. But in the end, you walk your path, and he walks his path. You just share the light.

 

This is what I'm talking about. I think I'm looking for more concrete ways, and maybe examples of people having "shared the light".

[Ouroboros]

This is what I'm talking about. I think I'm looking for more concrete ways, and maybe examples of people having "shared the light".

I'm most definitely not an expert in it. But I've learned that patience, willingness to listen, and suggesting things rather than telling, are some of the methods you have to use. For a person to listen to another person's ideas and input, there has to be trust. You have to listen first, and here's a list of good advice how to be a good listener: http://www.sklatch.net/thoughtlets/listen.html

 

Then by leading by example, hopefully, you'll make the other person act the same way and learn how to listen to you.

[ConureDelSol]

I think that just showing any benefits you have received by opening up is probably best. As much as I hate to use the analogy "Planting a seed" is true. It will at least get them curious. They will either embrace it or be further repulsed by it on their own time.

[blackpudd1n]

Noggy, maybe this will help.

 

My dad is a pagan. He does not believe in proselytising. He would say in response to your question: a person only ever finds themselves on the path that they should be on. When they need a teacher, a teacher will come, and teach however much the person needs to learn at that time. Then the person will move on and find a new teacher. The student must ask the questions. The student will only ask the questions if the student is ready to. Don't be offended if the student does not accept something; they may not be ready for it. Not everyone is made for a particular path, and at the end of the day, it is their journey to commence. Let the student lead you.

[norton65ca]

I guess what I was attempting (Poorly, I was actually about to head out the door to work) to say was that once one rejects "revealed" relijun, everything else which can't be nailed down logically and with clear evidence is merely subjective speculation, and cannot be proven. To be honest, I see many benefits of things such as meditation, contemplation etc. During my 29 years of Xtianity, I did look at "other" practices a bit, I DID spend six months of my life in India for example and looked into eastern spirituality a fair bit (Cosmic meditation & multi dimensional consciousness by Lama Anagarika Govinda anyone?), but at the end of the day I suppose, since my deconversion is recent, I am nowhere near ready to be prodded ;-)

I wouldn't go any farther down the spiritual road than to say we cannot know and are unlikely to find out. I think things like meditiation are therapeutic and beneficial but all the new age stuff I've encountered is (to me) pure mumbojumbo and I've seen the dangers of cultic types of eastern mysticism as well. (Baghwan Sri Rajneesh??) I guess I'm not willing to open my mind for things which are so utterly subjective and feeling-centric. I always looked for truth with a capital T, esoteric mysticism doesn't cuut it for me but that's probably just the way my mind operates.

[norton65ca]

the definition of what "spirituality" means is a massive part of this question.

[stryper]

true norton it is.

 

and that would help.

 

I think the best option is to just offer to answer questions. Maybe have a discussion about it. I would avoid being like a street preacher chasing people down the street.

 

If they are curious, then they will eventually ask questions.

[Noggy]

In response to the replies that were talking about how it shouldn't be evangelical, I agree with you. I'm not looking to go on the streets and teach from a box. But there are people out there that are looking, but do not know what they are looking for.

 

It's not about making someone come to a spiritual experience, its more of just opening peoples minds to the ideas of it. There are people out there that are looking for something that a good spiritual experience can give them, but they dont even CONSIDER it because of bad experiences with past religions, or militant atheism or whatever. This question is less about trying to convince people that my "Way" is right, and more about how to get people who are close minded to these type of things to open their minds.

 

To recent deconverts, like you norton, I would agree. I don't think I would push or even suggest any kind of spirituality. Mixing those experiences when the pain of recent deconversion is there would be more harmful than helpful, but eventually the pain will pass. Some people at this time experience an emptiness, but because of hardline stances and painful deconversions won't look to a spiritual path to satisfy that emptiness because of the preconceptions that you speak of here. I don't believe that spirituality is for everyone, but I believe that there are many people who would have good experiences with it that avoid it because of false preconceptions from earlier trauma. However, in your case, and in perhaps Vigile's case that he made earlier, some people dont want or need spirituality. That is fine. For some people they don't want or need it. I'm just concerned about the people who want/need it and don't get it because their minds are closed because of previous experience.

 

Make sense?

 

As to the definition of "spirituality" I would use the definition of "inner path to allow someone to discover the essence of his/her being". I'm mainly concerned with people who go from one sort of fundamentalism to another (such as Christianity to ReasonTruth). People who tout reason and logic as being the only path to truth are missing a huge part of the human experience, and they may FEEL that, but because of the culture we live in, and past experiences they had they will keep that closed. I'm just looking for ways and methods to open their hearts.

[Rev R]

Going by my experience, utility is key. It has to function in the midst of everyday shit.

[Deva]

IAs to the definition of "spirituality" I would use the definition of "inner path to allow someone to discover the essence of his/her being".

 

I think that is a fine definition of spirituality, Noggy.

 

I don't know, I can only speak for myself. I would not ever try to persuade anyone. I am not qualified to teach, but would answer some simple questions if I am pretty sure of the answers.

 

If someone were to says something like "oh, you are so calm, how do you do it?" or "Oh, you are so (insert good quality) whatever, I might say something.

 

I often feel I am walking a razor's edge converting to another religion, especially a rather hierarchical one with gurus, and I would not recommend it for everyone. Absolutely not.

 

For MYSELF, I will say that the idea of nihilism - of believing in nothing except what science is in its stumbling way can establish - would be closing my mind off to possibilities and I can't do that. I feel stifled; and. in a way, dead.

 

Our mental attitude, in one sense, makes our world. If you only see in a limited fashion, then that is what you will receive. I am not saying this to condemn or judge anyone. That is just how it seems to me.

[Antlerman]

It's not about making someone come to a spiritual experience, its more of just opening peoples minds to the ideas of it. There are people out there that are looking for something that a good spiritual experience can give them, but they dont even CONSIDER it because of bad experiences with past religions, or militant atheism or whatever. This question is less about trying to convince people that my "Way" is right, and more about how to get people who are close minded to these type of things to open their minds.

I think Rev R hit on something in saying it has to have utility. It has to function in a daily world. Dreams of some afterlife are like taking a drug to pacify our fears and anxieties of life and dying, and as they creep in you have to clutch to that drug to try to tell yourself everything will be alright. That is minimally effective and invites a host of other unhealthy neuroses to manifest themselves. The utility is the fact of clear thinking, reason and rationality, with a fully functional depth that integrates the totality of our lives.

 

It can't just be words and theories, but actual experience. To me to demonstrate that speaks for itself. If people are drawn towards developing their spiritual natures, then first integrating it in yourself in a modern world will be the biggest way to show it's possible (which of course it is). Of course you can never impart or convince what that is to them, as for everyone it is their own path they have to walk to realize it for themselves. Just simply speak from your own experience. If you can do it without compromising your mind of reason, then it demonstrates it's possible, and that it has actual results rather than just pie-in-the-sky metaphysics.

[SaraMWHB]

No offense, Noggy, but don't you feel it rather presumptuous that, because you think something is good, it's what the other person needs or wants?

 

For myself, I wouldn't offer anything to anyone who didn't ask.

 

...just sayin'

[Blue elephant]

Your friend probably needs a holiday from spiritual thinking if they have been damaged by christianity. How long does the holiday need to be?

 

For some, the holiday may need to be for the rest of their lives.

 

When your friend feels that some spirituality adds something to their life, they may get around to thinking about it. The more you carry on about it, the more the resistance to the concept will grow!

[Thought2Much]

How do you get someone who is intensely against spirituality to open themselves to the idea?

 

Do you have objective, documented, repeatable, testable evidence for your spirituality? (I'm not addressing this question to you in particular, Noggy, but toward people who are "spiritual" in general, and feel it is somehow necessary to try to convince others how wonderful their spirituality is.)

 

If you have no objective, documented, repeatable, testable evidence for what you believe, then I don't want to hear about it. Ever. Because I really just don't care. I simply can't bring myself to care about things that can't be proven to exist. I spent enough time worshiping something else that doesn't exist. I'm not doing that again. Ever.

 

And the burden is on those who believe what they believe to convince me. If they don't have evidence, I am under no obligation to be "open minded," because there is no actual information to be open-minded about. I don't care about your happy, warm fuzzy experiences, your lucid dreams, your feelings of oneness with earth mother/Gaia/the universe/yourself/whatever. If you enjoy that sort of thing, congratulations. I'm just not in the least bit interested. I can enjoy a walk in a forest, or a beautiful sunset just for what it is. I can feel myself becoming lost in the stars when I look up at a clear night sky without any spiritual implications. To me, the stars and nature simply are.

 

We're all just big, soggy bags of chemical reactions. Sometimes we can convince ourselves we're enjoying our existence when these chemicals function in the right way. People that have a need for their happy warm fuzzy spiritual feelings may see this point of view as deficient. To me, it just is.

[Noggy]

How do you get someone who is intensely against spirituality to open themselves to the idea?

 

Do you have objective, documented, repeatable, testable evidence for your spirituality? (I'm not addressing this question to you in particular, Noggy, but toward people who are "spiritual" in general, and feel it is somehow necessary to try to convince others how wonderful their spirituality is.)

 

If you have no objective, documented, repeatable, testable evidence for what you believe, then I don't want to hear about it. Ever. Because I really just don't care. I simply can't bring myself to care about things that can't be proven to exist. I spent enough time worshiping something else that doesn't exist. I'm not doing that again. Ever.

 

And the burden is on those who believe what they believe to convince me. If they don't have evidence, I am under no obligation to be "open minded," because there is no actual information to be open-minded about. I don't care about your happy, warm fuzzy experiences, your lucid dreams, your feelings of oneness with earth mother/Gaia/the universe/yourself/whatever. If you enjoy that sort of thing, congratulations. I'm just not in the least bit interested. I can enjoy a walk in a forest, or a beautiful sunset just for what it is. I can feel myself becoming lost in the stars when I look up at a clear night sky without any spiritual implications. To me, the stars and nature simply are.

 

We're all just big, soggy bags of chemical reactions. Sometimes we can convince ourselves we're enjoying our existence when these chemicals function in the right way. People that have a need for their happy warm fuzzy spiritual feelings may see this point of view as deficient. To me, it just is.

 

Thats fine with me, bro. You type of people are not the people I am looking to talk to, anyway. You're secure in your non belief. Its the people who aren't, the people who feel something missing, but feel pressured by society to feel your way instead, that I am interested in reaching.

[Antlerman]

How do you get someone who is intensely against spirituality to open themselves to the idea?

 

Do you have objective, documented, repeatable, testable evidence for your spirituality? (I'm not addressing this question to you in particular, Noggy, but toward people who are "spiritual" in general, and feel it is somehow necessary to try to convince others how wonderful their spirituality is.)

Aside from the qualification of feeling its necessary to convince others to seek to enrich their spiritual experiences of life, the rest of this would be a question to me. First, your demand for evidence is entirely misplaced. Spiritual experience, like the experience of love, doesn't have these demands attached to it. Take everything you just demanded and say those to your girlfriend next time she says "I love you".

 

But aside from that, do I have "objective, documented, repeatable, testable evidence for your spirituality"? Yes. Let's started with objective. I experience it. It has a measurable effect on my life that is observable objectively by not only myself, but others outside of me. The practices of enhancing spiritual experience in my life have objective evidence, let alone direct first-hand experience. Documented? Yes. I keep a daily journal record of these experiences and their effects. I can also compare this collected data with others who record their experiences, and you can see a pattern emerge. Repeatable? Oh hell yes! Every single day I practice meditation the results are of the same nature. I will enter into a place where profound experiences that surpass any mental cognitive/emotional experience. It is also repeatable by those who perform the same experiment as qualified researchers. Testable? Yes. Learn the practice, perform the experiment. Discuss with those who are qualified with the direct data in hand. Compare notes, theorize about the findings.

 

If you have no objective, documented, repeatable, testable evidence for what you believe, then I don't want to hear about it.

 

Ever. Because I really just don't care. I simply can't bring myself to care about things that can't be proven to exist. I spent enough time worshiping something else that doesn't exist. I'm not doing that again. Ever.

You don't see a flaw in this? I got burned by believing in fairy tales, so therefore unless it looks like the natural sciences where we can prove a rock exists, then I'm closed off to it? You do have to ask yourself if life itself, aside from the spiritual, can in fact be reduced down to that incredibly overly simplistic mode of knowing. You do know that science doesn't even ask questions it doesn't think it can offer some answer to? You know that's how it works? Then enter philosophy, psychology, sociology, and the other 'fuzzy' disciplines, let alone the contemplative practices which can even less concrete as the natural sciences. The methods and means change when you move up that ladder from the material world, up into the mental, and up further into the spiritual domains. That's just the way it is, much to the chagrin of many who prefer a "facts" based reality - which is a much a myth as the god Jehovah as an actual god in the sky with a literal throne and book of life in his hand.

 

I don't care about your happy, warm fuzzy experiences, your lucid dreams, your feelings of oneness with earth mother/Gaia/the universe/yourself/whatever.

Nice dismissal of something you clearly have no understanding of. Warm fuzzy experiences? Hardly. They can be quite terrifying and rattling to everything you assume about reality, in fact. The end result is probably better described as clarity. And through that clarity, is peace, centeredness, grounded sense of being, calm, etc. They are not emotional highs, or fuzzies. They are conditions of being. Those are realistic descriptions from someone with actual, first-hand experience. There is no self-delusion involved whatsoever, no whipping up of emotions or pacifying existential angst with fuzzy bunny beliefs. This doesn't sound a thing like how you describe it, does it? You must be talking about something else.

 

I can enjoy a walk in a forest, or a beautiful sunset just for what it is. I can feel myself becoming lost in the stars when I look up at a clear night sky without any spiritual implications. To me, the stars and nature simply are.

And spirituality simply is, as well. What you describe is the spiritual experience. What do you imagine spirituality is? Take what you say about 'becoming lost in the stars". Describe the experience of that to me. Where do you go inside yourself when that happens? Do you feel yourself move beyond the world that defines your life for you? Do you feel yourself for a moment connected in a way that you can't quite describe? That is beginning of the spiritual experience. Imagine yourself seeing that night sky in your very soul, where the sky ends and you begin is dissolved. This is the spiritual.

 

Again, what on earth do you imagine spirituality to be? Dancing angles on golden books in some child's mythology?

 

We're all just big, soggy bags of chemical reactions.

Except of course for our experience of life. Truthfully, when I hear this sort of mad reductionist rhetoric, I hear the Christian saying we're all nothing but sinful creatures. Bullshit to both statements. Plotinus said it best I believe, "Mankind is poised midway between the Gods and the beasts". We are far more than just a bag of chemicals. We have mind, and more.

 

Sometimes we can convince ourselves we're enjoying our existence when these chemicals function in the right way. People that have a need for their happy warm fuzzy spiritual feelings may see this point of view as deficient. To me, it just is.

Yes yes yes, that's all cognitive junk. That sounds like what your experience in religion has been. This is not that. So, still choose to be closed-minded?

[norton65ca]

no disrespect Antlerman, but that DOES sound like the touchy feely subjective bs that Christianity in some ways supported and that I am steering well clear of. I'm not a total reductionist, but after what I've been through, the "invisible", Now, Had better have better credentials than " I've EXPERIENCED IT, therefore it it is real." I experienced Gawd's love quite vividly at times and it was a pile of horseshit. I am as skeptical now about all relijun, whether eastern mysticism or western or whatever. For the time being, unless someone interrupts, I'll stick with science thanks. The LAST Thing I need is another relijun. I respect your practices but for me having rattling and terrifying "spiritual" experiences aren't on the cards. The universe, even at face value is pretty amazing as it is.