The Thing That Started The Process

[blackpudd1n]

Something that I have been trying to work out lately has been what event, series of events, etc., started me on my deconversion process. Roughly when, exactly, did it start, and why? It bothered me, simply because other things that other people have mentioned, like why does a "good" god allow suffering, never once came up for me as an issue. I always just blamed human nature and free will. When it came to natural disasters, I just always believed that they were a part of god's plan and that he would make good come out of evil. There was a reason for everything. So what caused me to start thinking? What caused the brainwashing to come unstuck with me?

 

I have been reading and reading, looking for clues to answer these questions. My dad, when I was talking to him about it tonight, said that I was too smart to continue believing and I was bound to start questioning at some point. But I disagreed, saying that there were heaps of people far smarter than I am, with far more knowledge than I who still believe, so what makes me different?

 

After much thinking, I recently worked out when the process began: around two and a half years ago, so that takes me back to late 2009 to early 2010. That's when I realised that my deconversion tied in with when I was finally diagnosed with bipolar and had started getting better (I was diagnosed in February 2010).

 

Thinking back, I can now see how the process came about. In order to accept that I had a mental illness, I had to accept what that illness was capable of making me think, feel, and believe when in the grips of mania/delusion. How was I meant to distinguish positively between mania/delusion and a religious/spiritual experience? I knew what my mind was capable of doing in the throes of mania/delusion, and I couldn't distinguish between the two. It was the same feeling, the same experience, essentially. Eventually, the only logical conclusion that I could come up with was that both my manic/delusion and religious/spiritual experiences were all in my head.

 

And if all of my religious/spiritual experiences were in my head... What about the rest of it? Was god real? Was the bible true? And thus began the researching.

 

So that is what led me here. And I am now an atheist because I reject all religious/spiritual experiences that can be recreated by my own sick mind. What would convince me that there is a god out there, something guiding the universe? Proof that it wasn't all in my mind, proof that my own mind, when sick, cannot create those experiences (and better, I must add. Religious experiences are tame compared to what my mind is capable of!). Miracles mean nothing to me, as do gaps in scientific understanding. If christians want this atheist, they need to prove that it wasn't all a product of my imagination. And I really doubt that they will ever be able to do so. I won't be holding my breath. And faith is just not enough, christians.

[freeasabird]

Since deconverting and hearing about the true meaning behind The Matrix I just had to go back and re-watch it, which I did a few months after I was fully deconverted. In fact I should probably do that once more this weekend if I get the chance.

 

But anyway back on subject, there is so much about that movie that is true about religion/deconversion.

• First of all, the idea that for many if not most of us, this has been brewing in the back of our mind for our whole life. You feel like something is just not right about the world around you but you can't quite place it.
  
• Second, you have to be willing to seek the truth above everything else. I actually just got done reading some book reviews for a book called "Why I Believed" that was recommended in another thread. I noted how many reviewers who were still believers could not argue against anything in the book, but essentially landed with "atheism has nothing to offer so I will continue to believe". To hell with what the truth actually is.
  
• It's much more common for people to abandon their faith early in life than later. You know the whole talk about freeing a mind past a certain age.
  
• It's much easier to walk away when you are already backsliding. Note how Neo is a societal recluse.
  
• The agents are apologists and societal norms which hold atheists and free thinkers back from truly opening up about our apostacy.
  
• Atheism holds the intellectual and factual high ground and cannot be defeated. This is expressed in how Neo eventually becomes immune to the agents.
  
• Freethought movements come and go over time, just like how Zion and the Matrix have been created and destroyed 6 or 7 times (I forget exactly how many - need to rewatch ). Someday, once and for all we hope to defeat the 'machines' for good.
  
• People and 'grown' into religion as they are 'grown' so unnaturally in the future.
  
• Not everyone who leaves religion is happy with their choice of the red pill; some even get reinserted.
  

I'm sure there is much more, I'm just scratching the surface here.

[blackpudd1n]

Since deconverting and hearing about the true meaning behind The Matrix I just had to go back and re-watch it, which I did a few months after I was fully deconverted. In fact I should probably do that once more this weekend if I get the chance.

 

But anyway back on subject, there is so much about that movie that is true about religion/deconversion.

• First of all, the idea that for many if not most of us, this has been brewing in the back of our mind for our whole life. You feel like something is just not right about the world around you but you can't quite place it.
  
• Second, you have to be willing to seek the truth above everything else. I actually just got done reading some book reviews for a book called "Why I Believed" that was recommended in another thread. I noted how many reviewers who were still believers could not argue against anything in the book, but essentially landed with "atheism has nothing to offer so I will continue to believe". To hell with what the truth actually is.
  
• It's much more common for people to abandon their faith early in life than later. You know the whole talk about freeing a mind past a certain age.
  
• It's much easier to walk away when you are already backsliding. Note how Neo is a societal recluse.
  
• The agents are apologists and societal norms which hold atheists and free thinkers back from truly opening up about our apostacy.
  
• Atheism holds the intellectual and factual high ground and cannot be defeated. This is expressed in how Neo eventually becomes immune to the agents.
  
• Freethought movements come and go over time, just like how Zion and the Matrix have been created and destroyed 6 or 7 times (I forget exactly how many - need to rewatch ). Someday, once and for all we hope to defeat the 'machines' for good.
  
• People and 'grown' into religion as they are 'grown' so unnaturally in the future.
  
• Not everyone who leaves religion is happy with their choice of the red pill; some even get reinserted.
  

I'm sure there is much more, I'm just scratching the surface here.

 

Wow, that's really interesting, Free. I never actually understood the metaphor involved in The Matrix, I was a fundy when I watched it, and only watched it once.

 

I only came to have a vague idea about it being about religion and rejecting it when I first got together with my partner. We'd met once through a mutual friend a year before we got together and had added each other on facebook. Anyway, a little while before we got together, he'd put up a status about the red pill and the blue pill, and I hadn't realised he was referring to The Matrix. I thought he was talking about drugs, and nearly defriended him over it. So when we started hanging out, I questioned him about it, because he'd told me that he'd quit pot around the time we initially met, and I was like, but what about that status?

 

Anyway, I'll have to watch it again now, because I'm really curious to see the parallels.

[Spectrox]

Since deconverting and hearing about the true meaning behind The Matrix I just had to go back and re-watch it, which I did a few months after I was fully deconverted. In fact I should probably do that once more this weekend if I get the chance.

 

But anyway back on subject, there is so much about that movie that is true about religion/deconversion.

• First of all, the idea that for many if not most of us, this has been brewing in the back of our mind for our whole life. You feel like something is just not right about the world around you but you can't quite place it.
  
• Second, you have to be willing to seek the truth above everything else. I actually just got done reading some book reviews for a book called "Why I Believed" that was recommended in another thread. I noted how many reviewers who were still believers could not argue against anything in the book, but essentially landed with "atheism has nothing to offer so I will continue to believe". To hell with what the truth actually is.
  
• It's much more common for people to abandon their faith early in life than later. You know the whole talk about freeing a mind past a certain age.
  
• It's much easier to walk away when you are already backsliding. Note how Neo is a societal recluse.
  
• The agents are apologists and societal norms which hold atheists and free thinkers back from truly opening up about our apostacy.
  
• Atheism holds the intellectual and factual high ground and cannot be defeated. This is expressed in how Neo eventually becomes immune to the agents.
  
• Freethought movements come and go over time, just like how Zion and the Matrix have been created and destroyed 6 or 7 times (I forget exactly how many - need to rewatch ). Someday, once and for all we hope to defeat the 'machines' for good.
  
• People and 'grown' into religion as they are 'grown' so unnaturally in the future.
  
• Not everyone who leaves religion is happy with their choice of the red pill; some even get reinserted.
  

I'm sure there is much more, I'm just scratching the surface here.

 

For me it was talking to a friend of mine who was an ex-christian. He pointed out stuff that didn't make sense.

[Positivist]

...thinking...

The unforgivable sin!

[blackpudd1n]

...thinking...

The unforgivable sin!

 

Yes, it always is lol.

[sarahinprogress]

Since deconverting and hearing about the true meaning behind The Matrix I just had to go back and re-watch it, which I did a few months after I was fully deconverted. In fact I should probably do that once more this weekend if I get the chance. But anyway back on subject, there is so much about that movie that is true about religion/deconversion.

• First of all, the idea that for many if not most of us, this has been brewing in the back of our mind for our whole life. You feel like something is just not right about the world around you but you can't quite place it.
• Second, you have to be willing to seek the truth above everything else. I actually just got done reading some book reviews for a book called "Why I Believed" that was recommended in another thread. I noted how many reviewers who were still believers could not argue against anything in the book, but essentially landed with "atheism has nothing to offer so I will continue to believe". To hell with what the truth actually is.
• It's much more common for people to abandon their faith early in life than later. You know the whole talk about freeing a mind past a certain age.
• It's much easier to walk away when you are already backsliding. Note how Neo is a societal recluse.
• The agents are apologists and societal norms which hold atheists and free thinkers back from truly opening up about our apostacy.
• Atheism holds the intellectual and factual high ground and cannot be defeated. This is expressed in how Neo eventually becomes immune to the agents.
• Freethought movements come and go over time, just like how Zion and the Matrix have been created and destroyed 6 or 7 times (I forget exactly how many - need to rewatch ). Someday, once and for all we hope to defeat the 'machines' for good.
• People and 'grown' into religion as they are 'grown' so unnaturally in the future.
• Not everyone who leaves religion is happy with their choice of the red pill; some even get reinserted.

I'm sure there is much more, I'm just scratching the surface here.

 

 

OMG!!!!!

 

 

this is amazing.

where can i get more information about this?

the hilarious thing is (if you've read my extimony thread) MY DAD *LOVES* THE MATRIX!!!

 

omg trying not to fall out of my chair laughing in psych class.

[sarahinprogress]

Something that I have been trying to work out lately has been what event, series of events, etc., started me on my deconversion process. Roughly when, exactly, did it start, and why?

 

I've been going through this same thing recently, Pudd. Like, i know I havent really believed for a long time, but i cant pinpoint when it really started or what questions i had that started it.

[mcdaddy]

Yeah. the Matrix is totally a spoof on religion. There's SO many parallels, motifs, etc etc. Trinity, Zion, it goes on forever.

 

Of course when I was still a fundy I just threw all that out and called the writers/producers dumb atheistic heathens.

 

Now I think they're genius.

[mcdaddy]

[stryper]

Actually it isn't a spoof on religion.

 

It actually has many eastern philosophies in it.

 

The primary theme of the Matrix is based off the philosophies of this guy.

 

Marx once said that religion is the opiate of the masses. A Calvin and hobbes strip had a TV say Marx hadn't seen anything yet.

 

If you think about it, then you would probably see that many people you know and love spend most of their lives just going through the motions. They do what they do because it's what they do. They never question it. 9/11/2001 as a point in time when EVERYONE woke up for a time. Now most are more concerned with Bradjelina get engaged, or who's getting kicked off american Idol or not as the case was.

 

The point being very few people are "awake" in the live. Few consciencely recognizes that power they have to create their own life.

 

Religion for many allows them to sleep. It doesn't ask or require you to be responsible for their decisions. Since God is in control it doesn't matter what you do. Besides if you do bad your covered.

[blackpudd1n]

Something that I have been trying to work out lately has been what event, series of events, etc., started me on my deconversion process. Roughly when, exactly, did it start, and why?

 

I've been going through this same thing recently, Pudd. Like, i know I havent really believed for a long time, but i cant pinpoint when it really started or what questions i had that started it.

 

Yeah, I had difficulty separating the time of questioning from the deconversion process, because questioning was something that I always did. I thought questioning would bring me closer to god.

 

I found it help to look at the last four years, because I knew it had happened in that time, and just think about the conversations I was having and the reactions I was having to stuff. Basically, my deconversion started when I started listening to what christians would say, and looking at them differently. When I started feeling like a bit of an outsider, started thinking, 'well, you might say that, but other people say this'.

[Tealeaf]

I am very, very pleased with all the Matrix references I'm seeing here. I've even got a copy of the DVD in my field of vision as I type this.

 

I use anologies from this movie in damn near every conversation I've had about religion! It's just so perfect for it. Though I've never been religious and thus I suppose you'd say "pure, old-fashioned, home-grown human", I do have my own personal sort of 'waking-up' to how awesome this movie is. I never saw it in theatres or noticed its release at the time. Then in grade 6 it started coming on The Movie Network when I would come home for lunch break. I'd see brief sections here and there and always wonder what the hell was going on, and how these chunks were all the same movie. Then around late age 11 I finally watched the whole thing at once and was like, HOLY SHIT! This is and always will be my favourite movie.

 

My angle is to propose the Red Pill to people hoping if they've seen this movie, they'll understand the symbol. I supoose my biggest case study with this has been on-and-off encounters with this girl as well as a full out relationship for over a year at one point. I knew from day one what kind of fucked up shit to expect with religious people of this particular flavour, but damn it if I can't resist a good challenge and an opportunity to experiment in a unique fashion. Plus the whole love thing that eventually came to be realized.... It's a modest attempt, would any of you say? All I'm offering is the truth with the Red Pill. It's been sort of a fundemental project I didn't realize I was carrying out until a couple years in.

 

Which brings me to you blackpudd1n. You remind me the most of this girl, right down to the behaviour attributed to your particular mental illness. Before undertaking any Red Pill proposals I of course did my research which quickly led me here. There is hope I found. People of ALL backgrounds make it out. Your experience is most inspiring because of all the similarities to my 'project.' And I don't feel the Red Pill is dangerous. It hasn't appeared to kill anyone. And if one really wants to be re-inserted into religion they can. What are you going to do when you realize religion and thus heaven/hell/afterlife is all bullshit? Kill yourself? It's self-saving grace.

 

The Red Pill is different for everyone and I don't think it should be shyed away from in discussion. There is no good reason anyone's mind has to be stuck in the Faithtrix. Same way there is no reason someone has to be addicted to drugs. There is a cause for it: childhood exposure, traumatic events, other mental illness, etc. But they are all catalysts. They create a need. Brainwashing creates a need for religion that isn't there when you are born. Those that adopt it later on tend to have a void....but we all know that adopting religion is not actually fixing anything, it's just an attempt to escape reality. I find the Blue Pill to be a very selfish and ultimatley pointless waste of life. Why waste the one and only life you know you have trying to block out reality and hoping for death so you can collect your promised million dollars..... This is a toxic approach to precious life any way you look at it. Even if your life is hell, better to actually do something about it than to just wish it away.

 

Again, I am quite pleased to see this thread

[freeasabird]

Yeah. the Matrix is totally a spoof on religion. There's SO many parallels, motifs, etc etc. Trinity, Zion, it goes on forever.

 

Of course when I was still a fundy I just threw all that out and called the writers/producers dumb atheistic heathens.

 

Now I think they're genius.

 

McDaddy, your comment has been swirling in my head and I wanted to ask you about it. Are you saying that when you first saw the movie as a fundy you already knew they were talking about religion as if it were a lie? Please elaborate; I'm purplexed at how your mind works and must know more.

[mcdaddy]

Well, when I said it was a spoof that wasn't really the best word to use, as Stryper pointed out. It wasn't so much making fun of religion, as much as it calls it out for being a system that blinds people from reality and controls those under its influence.

 

I definitely didn't pick up on it at first. But some of the themes are more obvious than others. The first time it was all over my head. But the more I watched it the more I started to pick up on little things. Then I looked up stuff online and read what others were saying about it and I feel like I mostly get where they're coming from.

Btw, I was funds but not bat shit crazy fundy.

[mcdaddy]

Stupid iPhone autocorrect. I wasn't "funds" obviously lol

 

I think for a long long time people will look back and say the Matrix was a brilliant movie, ahead of its time. It's easy to watch it and just get lost in the special effects and not pay attention to the storyline and completely miss what the movie is telling you. Now the 2nd and 3rd parts of the series I haven't watched as many times, or done as much research on, so I'm not as clued in to what every little thing represents or means in those. I just didn't feel they were nearly as god as the original, I felt each one got progressively worse. It just seemed like there was less "meaning" in each one and more special effects for the sake of special effects.

 

The thing I loved most about the video I posted above was a part that was meant to be funny, but also sums it all up perfectly: when Neo frees his mind and understands that the harm the agents are trying to inflict can't "really" harm him, when he realizes he doesn't have to be part of their system, he has the ability to dodge "bullshit". He understands how the world really is and that the agents, representing power hungry theists, cannot control him any longer since he has come to a clearer understanding of reality.

 

 

[Akheia]

I loved the Matrix, but made the mistake of watching it while I was right in the thick of my PTSD hallucinations (this was some five years after my deconversion). I remember getting that super-prickly glittering feeling across my upper chest as I watched Neo consider jumping off that building, and I remember thinking with a sudden shock of existential angst, "I could totally do that. I could jump off that building. I might just fly." It was a real struggle not to have a breakdown right there in the theater! I was left with a profound respect for the cosmology the movie's writers had created.

 

I still like the movie and can get through it without having an existential meltdown, and even have a book of philosophy exploring its worldview. But I'll never forget how freaked out I got at it.

[2Honest]

Ok, I hesitated to post this b/c I feel like such an idiot now when I think of where I was in my head not so long ago. When we first watched The Matrix we actually saw it as a metaphor about being a Christian. To us, Neo was a type of Jesus, or a representation of a True Believer^TM. We believed that WE were the ones who had woken up and the "world" was all still hooked up to machines and just going through the motions. We believed that if we could only fully believe the "truth" (that we lived in this world but operated from another realm), we'd have abilities like Neo. So to us, taking the Red Pill meant waking up to the "Kingdom reality" and believing our "true identity" as Christians.

 

I know it sounds crazy, but it made so much sense at the time! In our brand of Christianity, it translated perfectly. And we weren't the only ones who thought this - there are tons of Christians out there who think the same thing.

 

I'm so glad we woke up! I think it is time to watch that movie again...

[mcdaddy]

You should. I don't know if it was written to have double meaning but a lot of people thought that. Like the bible, it can be taken many different ways. That's the mark of good fiction.

[freeasabird]

It's funny you mention that 2H because in my neck of the woods everyone knew it had something to do with religion because of some of the names like Nebucanedzar and others I can't remember or spell either, but the closest they could get to tying it together was that it was end times something or another because of the way Neo flew off at the end like Jebus flying off to heaven. Noone seemed to be able to really place the religious significance other than that, butit never really fit the motif very well so I guess I knew there was something major I was missing, but in all honestly I blamed it on my lack of biblical knowledge.

[freeasabird]

Just stumbled across something that also eluded to The Truman Show having similar themes of awakening from religion. Now I guess I have another movie I need to add to the playlist lol.

[blackpudd1n]

Just stumbled across something that also eluded to The Truman Show having similar themes of awakening from religion. Now I guess I have another movie I need to add to the playlist lol.

 

I never even thought of that. Hmm. Guess I'll have to watch it again- one of the few Jim Carey movies I actually like.

[TrueFreedom]

I felt the same way about "The Island." I don't think I can explain without spoiling the end.

[blackpudd1n]

I felt the same way about "The Island." I don't think I can explain without spoiling the end.

 

Don't think I have ever watched that one.

[mcdaddy]

I felt the same way about "The Island." I don't think I can explain without spoiling the end.

 

GREAT GREAT flick.