Why Do Christians Frequent This Site When Fraternizing With Apostates Is Expressly Forbidden In The Bybul?

[norton65ca]

Why do Christians come here and debate their faith with us apostates when such behaviour is expressly forbidden in the New Testament? The Bybul clearly states that Christians are commanded to spread the gospel to every creature, but there are also clear commands to avoid, shun and keep away from apostates, them being "wayward stars" etc, teachers of false doctrine etc.

Straight answers please, God botherers, I'm not interested in playing games.

I'll try to dig out the references in the next day or so, but I get skin lesions whenever I touch that book nowadays so I avoid it.

[mymistake]

Because they pick and choose which parts of the Bible they will believe literally and which parts of the Bible will mean whatever they want to think it means.

[Guest Valk0010]

Because they pick and choose which parts of the Bible they will believe literally and which parts of the Bible will mean whatever they want to think it means.

Or in the case of thumb, ignore the obvious.

[midniterider]

I thought they got more points for reconverting an apostate?

[Ben]

Why do Christians come here and debate their faith with us apostates when such behaviour is expressly forbidden in the New Testament? The Bybul clearly states that Christians are commanded to spread the gospel to every creature, but there are also clear commands to avoid, shun and keep away from apostates, them being “wayward stars” etc, teachers of false doctrine etc.

Straight answers please, God botherers, I’m not interested in playing games.

I’ll try to dig out the references in the next day or so, but I get skin lesions whenever I touch that book nowadays so I avoid it.

 

I’m not sure what passage you mean to evoke by the phrase “wayward stars,” but the passage below may be the passage you’re thinking of. If not, then I’m glad to be corrected. (Especially relevant passages are highlighted in bold.)

 

^“And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love. I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch out that you do not lose what we have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work” (2 John 1:5-11 NIV).

 

You ask, “Why do Christians come here and debate their faith with us apostates when such behaviour is expressly forbidden in the New Testament?” I don’t think the passage I quoted above forbids talking with those who used to identify themselves as Christians.

 

Instead, the passage seems to be forbidding the act of aiding the purposes of those who are spreading false teaching about Jesus (which, in the days of the early church, included welcoming traveling teachers into one’s home).

 

Traveling teachers in the time of John would often use other people’s homes as bases for their operations. John seems to be saying that Christians should not allow false teachers to use their homes as bases of operations, lest they be guilty of sharing “in their wicked work.” In my mind, this is different from simply interacting with former Christians.

 

In 1 Corinthians 5:9-13, Paul tells the Corinthian Christians not to associate with those who claim to be Christians but lead wicked lives. And he explicitly says that he does not mean not to associate with those outside the church, as then one would have to be outside the world.

 

But if you find (or have in mind) any passages that do expressly forbid Christians from talking with or hanging around those who used to be Christians, please bring it to my attention. I am always happy to be corrected.

[GodlessX]

Ben, when you repeat Bible verses like that, it makes you look alike a mindless Bible-spouting robot.

 

So Ben -- forget about what your magic comic book says. Why do you come here to debate? Not jesus, not the Bible, not the holy cosmic bediddlythwap -- you, Ben, why do YOU come here?

[Ben]

Ben, when you repeat Bible verses like that, it makes you look alike a mindless Bible-spouting robot.

 

I quoted the 2 John passage because I thought it might be the one that the poster was referring to. My reference to 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 was simply to show that the kind of fraternization forbidden in Scripture tends to be more with those who say they are Christians but behave immorally (not with those outside the church who behave in the ways that Paul described).

 

The post was about the Bible, so I feel justified in referring to the Bible as part of my response.

 

So Ben -- forget about what your magic comic book says. Why do you come here to debate? Not jesus, not the Bible, not the holy cosmic bediddlythwap -- you, Ben, why do YOU come here?

 

I came to ex-christian.net because I'm genuinely curious about the experiences of those who have left Christianity. My first posting was not in "The Lion's Den." You can look at my history and see what my postings were. I haven't posted much, and I have been gone a year because I was busy with grad school.

 

That most recent post was my first in a long time. If you mean why did I come to "The Lion's Den" specifically, the answer is that I'm curious.

 

I have no intention to "re-convert" anyone here or attempt to convince anyone that they should be Christians again. I am fully aware that many people on this board have been hurt by Christians before (especially those that say "you were never Christians to begin with"), and I suppose I have come not so much to "debate" as to learn from others here. (Of course, I will inevitably express my disagreements from time to time, but that's what humans do, so given that I am one, that's what I'll do.)

[blackpudd1n]

I came to ex-christian.net because I'm genuinely curious about the experiences of those who have left Christianity.

 

Why are you curious about us?

[blackpudd1n]

I came to ex-christian.net because I'm genuinely curious about the experiences of those who have left Christianity.

 

Why are you curious about us?

 

And I mean that as just a question, not trying to set you up for some big argument or anything. Just curious as to why you're curious.

[mymistake]

I have no intention to "re-convert" anyone here or attempt to convince anyone that they should be Christians again.

 

Excellent! I don't have a problem with you being Christian and I have no desire to de-convert you. We should get along just fine.

 

I am fully aware that many people on this board have been hurt by Christians before (especially those that say "you were never Christians to begin with"), and I suppose I have come not so much to "debate" as to learn from others here. (Of course, I will inevitably express my disagreements from time to time, but that's what humans do, so given that I am one, that's what I'll do.)

 

Nothing wrong with that.

[♦ ficino ♦]

I am fully aware that many people on this board have been hurt by Christians before (especially those that say "you were never Christians to begin with"), and I suppose I have come not so much to "debate" as to learn from others here.

 

Hello Ben, welcome back. You may have noticed already that, although many people on here have been hurt by Christians, they and most others would say that the real issue that led them out of Christianity was its mixture of false, immoral and/or incoherent beliefs.

[owen652]

this guy seems pretty cool compared to some others we could mention. to be fair, the question was bible-related, so quoting the bible is fair enough.

Matthew 18:15 has Jesus saying that if your brother or sister (fellow church members) sin, and their behaviour can't be changed by an intervention, they should be ostracized. true that he's not talking about apostates, but it raises the question, what does he mean exactly by 'sin', considering everyone, christian or not, 'sins'. Did Jesus not think that this could be open to some interpretation? And that is exactly what has happened over the years; church leadership casting someone as a 'sinner' according to their own definitions, and then treating them like shit because that's what Jesus told them to do.

[Vigile]

I have no intention to "re-convert" anyone here or attempt to convince anyone that they should be Christians again. I am fully aware that many people on this board have been hurt by Christians before (especially those that say "you were never Christians to begin with"), and I suppose I have come not so much to "debate" as to learn from others here. (Of course, I will inevitably express my disagreements from time to time, but that's what humans do, so given that I am one, that's what I'll do.)

 

I applaud your curiosity and desire to understand. Just a quick hint though, it's a bit of a pet peeve around here when we are accused of leaving the faith because we were hurt. Many have been hurt, not all -- including myself, but the primary reason we leave is because we don't believe it. When we are accused of leaving because we are hurt, it makes us appear emotionally fragile and it discounts the real reasons we left. In fact, most of us left for reasons of personal integrity, which does not allow us to continue believing something that is intellectually unsupportable from our perspective. This is something that few of us approached lightly and many times involved years of soul searching and study.

[Margee]

Ben, when you repeat Bible verses like that, it makes you look alike a mindless Bible-spouting robot.

 

I quoted the 2 John passage because I thought it might be the one that the poster was referring to. My reference to 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 was simply to show that the kind of fraternization forbidden in Scripture tends to be more with those who say they are Christians but behave immorally (not with those outside the church who behave in the ways that Paul described).

 

The post was about the Bible, so I feel justified in referring to the Bible as part of my response.

 

So Ben -- forget about what your magic comic book says. Why do you come here to debate? Not jesus, not the Bible, not the holy cosmic bediddlythwap -- you, Ben, why do YOU come here?

 

I came to ex-christian.net because I'm genuinely curious about the experiences of those who have left Christianity. My first posting was not in "The Lion's Den." You can look at my history and see what my postings were. I haven't posted much, and I have been gone a year because I was busy with grad school.

 

That most recent post was my first in a long time. If you mean why did I come to "The Lion's Den" specifically, the answer is that I'm curious.

 

I have no intention to "re-convert" anyone here or attempt to convince anyone that they should be Christians again. I am fully aware that many people on this board have been hurt by Christians before (especially those that say "you were never Christians to begin with"), and I suppose I have come not so much to "debate" as to learn from others here. (Of course, I will inevitably express my disagreements from time to time, but that's what humans do, so given that I am one, that's what I'll do.)

 

Ben, I actually gave you a point on your post because it looks to me as if you have sincerely read the horrible threads that were written by christians that hurt us even further. And you did answer the above post honestly (in my opinion) referenced from the OP.

 

My dream would have been for a christian (not using scripture because as you already know - we do not believe the bible is the spoken word of god) to convince me back into the fold, by some other means or history references. Or even to help convince me of the god who refuses to show his face to us.I didn't choose to lose my faith....Why is it that you can continue to close your eyes to the simple facts we write about. Why do christians end up behaving badly towards us when they know in their hearts that what we argue about is true? Non-believers are also very smart people. We know our bibles.We don't skip over verses. We have studied verse for verse.

 

If you are really reading and opening your mind - you KNOW that lots of points we post about make sense. This was a letter I wrote about how I would have loved my christians friends to re-act when I told them I was losing my faith:

 

http://www.ex-christ...__fromsearch__1

 

 

Thanks for sounding like a caring person in your post. Maybe, this could be a happy thread that really considers both sides.I have never seen that on EX-c before.. Most of the time,I leave the argument because they get so ridiculous. I can't stand the fighting. I don't want to fight anymore....I just want to be heard and have someone validate the knowledge I have. Most of the time, christians won't be bothered giving me the answers I want....because they can't........ so they skip over my posts (and many others) Maybe, you'll be different?

 

Sincerely, Margee

[riddick]

The Bybul clearly states that Christians are commanded to spread the gospel to every creature, but there are also clear commands to avoid, shun and keep away from apostates, them being "wayward stars" etc, teachers of false doctrine etc.

 

I wish they would.

 

 

Because they pick and choose which parts of the Bible they will believe literally and which parts of the Bible will mean whatever they want to think it means.

 

And there's your answer.

[Ouroboros]

I have no intention to "re-convert" anyone here or attempt to convince anyone that they should be Christians again. I am fully aware that many people on this board have been hurt by Christians before (especially those that say "you were never Christians to begin with"), and I suppose I have come not so much to "debate" as to learn from others here. (Of course, I will inevitably express my disagreements from time to time, but that's what humans do, so given that I am one, that's what I'll do.)

Welcome back. I think you're a good guy Ben. But as others have said here, don't make that leap that "many people on this board have been hurt by Christians" is the reason to why people lost their faith. The other thread you started was about the reasons and reading the first page, most answers have to do with reasons, logic, lack of evidence, experience, and so on, and not people being hurt. However, after de-conversion, members on this site encounter Christians now, as non-Christians, and they are hurt by how they are treated. Which is a totally different thing.

[mcdaddy]

Why do Christians come here and debate their faith with us apostates when such behaviour is expressly forbidden in the New Testament? The Bybul clearly states that Christians are commanded to spread the gospel to every creature, but there are also clear commands to avoid, shun and keep away from apostates, them being “wayward stars” etc, teachers of false doctrine etc.

Straight answers please, God botherers, I’m not interested in playing games.

I’ll try to dig out the references in the next day or so, but I get skin lesions whenever I touch that book nowadays so I avoid it.

 

I’m not sure what passage you mean to evoke by the phrase “wayward stars,” but the passage below may be the passage you’re thinking of. If not, then I’m glad to be corrected. (Especially relevant passages are highlighted in bold.)

 

^“And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love. I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch out that you do not lose what we have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work” (2 John 1:5-11 NIV).

 

You ask, “Why do Christians come here and debate their faith with us apostates when such behaviour is expressly forbidden in the New Testament?” I don’t think the passage I quoted above forbids talking with those who used to identify themselves as Christians.

 

Instead, the passage seems to be forbidding the act of aiding the purposes of those who are spreading false teaching about Jesus (which, in the days of the early church, included welcoming traveling teachers into one’s home).

 

Traveling teachers in the time of John would often use other people’s homes as bases for their operations. John seems to be saying that Christians should not allow false teachers to use their homes as bases of operations, lest they be guilty of sharing “in their wicked work.” In my mind, this is different from simply interacting with former Christians.

 

In 1 Corinthians 5:9-13, Paul tells the Corinthian Christians not to associate with those who claim to be Christians but lead wicked lives. And he explicitly says that he does not mean not to associate with those outside the church, as then one would have to be outside the world.

 

But if you find (or have in mind) any passages that do expressly forbid Christians from talking with or hanging around those who used to be Christians, please bring it to my attention. I am always happy to be corrected.

 

The passages you boldes above are referring to how In early Christianity there were rival sects, one whose members thought Jesus was a real flesh and blood person that traveled around Judea, and another group that thought he was only a spiritual/heavenly being that never actually came to earth (but was going to make his first visit soon). John didn't actually write any of the "John" books- if he really existed at all. It says on acts they were uneducated and illiterate - and obviously Jewish- so they wouldn't have written it, being unable to write, much less IN GREEK.

 

The reason the John books are in the bible is because the "Jesus was a historical dude" sect won out politically and excluded the other groups' writings. Why would there be any argument over whether someone existed "in the flesh" if he obviously traveled judea and was very famous as the gospels say? It's because he didn't exist, but people took the gospels literally When they weren't meant to be. At least mark, IMO, wasnt meant to be. Then the others just copied and pasted mark and added stuff for their own political reasons. John is in a class by himself. That Jesus is TOTALLY different than the synoptical Jesus.

[Ben]

Why are you curious about us?

 

I want to be challenged, and a place like this is conducive to that.

I am fully aware that many people on this board have been hurt by Christians before (especially those that say "you were never Christians to begin with"), and I suppose I have come not so much to "debate" as to learn from others here.

Hello Ben, welcome back. You may have noticed already that, although many people on here have been hurt by Christians, they and most others would say that the real issue that led them out of Christianity was its mixture of false, immoral and/or incoherent beliefs.

 

Yes, good to point out. You may or may not have seen this, but I've been watching "The Atheist Experience," and if I remember correctly or not, one of the hosts, Matt Dillahunty, says that he de-converted because he genuinely believed he could no longer see his faith as logically coherent. (He may not have put it exactly that way, but from what I understand, that's what I think he said.)

[Ben]

I came to ex-christian.net because I'm genuinely curious about the experiences of those who have left Christianity.

 

Why are you curious about us?

 

And I mean that as just a question, not trying to set you up for some big argument or anything. Just curious as to why you're curious.

 

No worries. I just want to have my perspective challenged, and I feel that talking to people who have left Christianity is one way I can do that. And sorry about the multiple posts. I'm trying to figure out the whole "MultiQuote" thing, and I'm not sure how to do it yet.

[Ben]

I have no intention to "re-convert" anyone here or attempt to convince anyone that they should be Christians again. I am fully aware that many people on this board have been hurt by Christians before (especially those that say "you were never Christians to begin with"), and I suppose I have come not so much to "debate" as to learn from others here. (Of course, I will inevitably express my disagreements from time to time, but that's what humans do, so given that I am one, that's what I'll do.)

Welcome back. I think you're a good guy Ben. But as others have said here, don't make that leap that "many people on this board have been hurt by Christians" is the reason to why people lost their faith. The other thread you started was about the reasons and reading the first page, most answers have to do with reasons, logic, lack of evidence, experience, and so on, and not people being hurt. However, after de-conversion, members on this site encounter Christians now, as non-Christians, and they are hurt by how they are treated. Which is a totally different thing.

 

Thanks! It's good to be back. Totally fair and legitimate to point out. Yes, I didn't mean to suggest that being hurt was the only reason people leave, and I do apologize for not nuancing my statement better. Yes, the vast majority of responses I received from my other thread certainly indicated that people left because they genuinely could not see any logic to Christianity after a while. (Or perhaps for some, it happened quickly.) Thanks for commenting!

[Ben]

I have no intention to "re-convert" anyone here or attempt to convince anyone that they should be Christians again. I am fully aware that many people on this board have been hurt by Christians before (especially those that say "you were never Christians to begin with"), and I suppose I have come not so much to "debate" as to learn from others here. (Of course, I will inevitably express my disagreements from time to time, but that's what humans do, so given that I am one, that's what I'll do.)

 

I applaud your curiosity and desire to understand. Just a quick hint though, it's a bit of a pet peeve around here when we are accused of leaving the faith because we were hurt. Many have been hurt, not all -- including myself, but the primary reason we leave is because we don't believe it. When we are accused of leaving because we are hurt, it makes us appear emotionally fragile and it discounts the real reasons we left. In fact, most of us left for reasons of personal integrity, which does not allow us to continue believing something that is intellectually unsupportable from our perspective. This is something that few of us approached lightly and many times involved years of soul searching and study.

 

Yes, looking over my post again, it did sound that way, and I do apologize for not making it clear that I recognize that people frequently leave the faith for intellectual (not emotional) reasons. I certainly didn't mean to suggest that the reason most ex-Christians leave was that they were hurt.

 

Just a quick clarification. When I said that "I am fully aware that many people on this board have been hurt by Christians before," I meant that "many people have on this board have been hurt by Christians before [after they already left]," only I didn't say "after they already left."

 

Overall I should have been far more careful with my wording, and I do apologize. I'll make sure to do better. Thanks for pointing that out!

[Ben]

this guy seems pretty cool compared to some others we could mention. to be fair, the question was bible-related, so quoting the bible is fair enough.

Matthew 18:15 has Jesus saying that if your brother or sister (fellow church members) sin, and their behaviour can't be changed by an intervention, they should be ostracized. true that he's not talking about apostates, but it raises the question, what does he mean exactly by 'sin', considering everyone, christian or not, 'sins'. Did Jesus not think that this could be open to some interpretation? And that is exactly what has happened over the years; church leadership casting someone as a 'sinner' according to their own definitions, and then treating them like shit because that's what Jesus told them to do.

 

Good point. By "sin," I think Jesus meant any willful act of disobedience in which the person stubbornly persists and of which the person refuses to repent. But he doesn't elaborate much from there, and I think I see your point.

 

It's definitely fair to say that everyone "sins" anyway (and it's certainly fair to wonder why Jesus would just leave it to interpretation). It's also fair to point out that there are several examples of abuse of this passage by various church leaders. (You might have heard of the recent fiasco with Mark Driscoll's Mars Hill Church "discipline" cases in Seattle, for instance. From what I've been reading on it, those are definite cases of abuse.)

 

That's why those in church leadership need to lend themselves to accountability. No church community is perfect, of course, and some church leaders are worse (or better) than others at handling these things, but I think from the language that Jesus uses here, he seems to be suggesting that the whole community should be involved if two or three witnesses doesn't do the trick. If it turns out that the whole community finds him innocent, though, it would seem that the two or three witnesses were false witnesses, which the Bible also doesn't favor very well.

 

Those are my thoughts, anyway. Thanks for your thoughtful reply!

[Ben]

Ben, I actually gave you a point on your post because it looks to me as if you have sincerely read the horrible threads that were written by christians that hurt us even further. And you did answer the above post honestly (in my opinion) referenced from the OP.

 

Thank you, Margee! Also, others have pointed out that perhaps I sounded as though I was assuming that all (or most) people leave Christianity because of emotional hurts (as opposed to intellectual doubts), and I just want to be clear that I affirm that people often leave Christianity due to intellectual doubts.

 

My dream would have been for a christian (not using scripture because as you already know - we do not believe the bible is the spoken word of god) to convince me back into the fold, by some other means or history references. Or even to help convince me of the god who refuses to show his face to us.I didn't choose to lose my faith....Why is it that you can continue to close your eyes to the simple facts we write about. Why do christians end up behaving badly towards us when they know in their hearts that what we argue about is true? Non-believers are also very smart people. We know our bibles.We don't skip over verses. We have studied verse for verse.

 

I totally agree. I think that many non-believers read their Bibles better than many Christians. This has propelled me into study, and the more I study, the more I realize how little I really know. So thank you for what you are writing.

 

If you are really reading and opening your mind - you KNOW that lots of points we post about make sense. This was a letter I wrote about how I would have loved my christians friends to re-act when I told them I was losing my faith:

 

http://www.ex-christ...__fromsearch__1

 

 

Thanks for sounding like a caring person in your post. Maybe, this could be a happy thread that really considers both sides.I have never seen that on EX-c before.. Most of the time,I leave the argument because they get so ridiculous. I can't stand the fighting. I don't want to fight anymore....I just want to be heard and have someone validate the knowledge I have. Most of the time, christians won't be bothered giving me the answers I want....because they can't........ so they skip over my posts (and many others) Maybe, you'll be different?

 

Thank you for the link. I appreciate it! I read the "letter from 'Christian'" you wrote, and I long for real posts like that too on message boards like these. I certainly think that we as Christians could stand to be more charitable in actually just hearing you.

 

I'm also tired of all the fighting. I feel like people tend to be better at talking past one another than to each other, and it's ultimately a failure to treat the other person like a human being when that happens. Thanks again for your kind words!

[LivingLife]

It's definitely fair to say that everyone "sins" anyway (and it's certainly fair to wonder why Jesus would just leave it to interpretation). It's also fair to point out that there are several examples of abuse of this passage by various church leaders. (You might have heard of the recent fiasco with Mark Driscoll's Mars Hill Church "discipline" cases in Seattle, for instance. From what I've been reading on it, those are definite cases of abuse.)

Have to disagree here as sin has to be defined. Every discussion with a theist on this premise, it always comes down to sex or sexual thoughts. Not one of them could tell me what "sins" I commit.

 

The concept of the word "sin" is simply an archaic archery term of missing the mark. Really has no relevance in today's reality as folk that shoot shit at targets seldom miss.

 

You have sadly bought into the false belief that you as a person are not good enough. This sis how xianity does a mind fuck on folk, then you spend the rest of your life trying to meet a standard that is not even clearly defined.

 

Anything that brings pleasure is supposed to be a sin. They want you to be miserable.

[London]

I'm trying to figure out the whole "MultiQuote" thing, and I'm not sure how to do it yet.

 

Ben, if you click on the "MultiQuote" button in each post you want to quote, a black box will appear at the bottom right of your screen. In the black box it should say "Reply to (number) of quoted post(s)". When you are done using the "multiQuote" button on each post, click the black box and all the posts will appear in your reply box.

 

Now the real hard part is editing everything out and keeping the original "tree" of posts that you wanted to quote. Knowing a little HTML and nesting really helps.

 

I hope that helped you. And did not confuse you more.