Pretending In Order To Maintain Influence

[TrueFreedom]

Throughout my deconversion process, I’ve thought a lot about how influential people in recent history treated their spiritual beliefs publicly. Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) kept his most irreverent beliefs to himself but wrote them down in order to publish them from the grave, 100 years after his death. He remained a popular author throughout his life. Benjamin Franklin, though a non-theist, identified as a Christian throughout his life and found that organized religion was necessary for motivating people to do good. He referred to himself as a deist AND a Christian in his autobiography. Charles Darwin continued to play a leading part in parish work at his local church after adopting an agnostic perspective. Thomas Paine, on the other hand, who authored the first draft of the Declaration of Independence, was demonized and discredited after publishing a criticism of Christianity. I don’t know of many true believers who are fond of Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins. I wonder if it might be more constructive to work with believers where they are, planting seeds of enlightenment wherever we can.

 

This is what I’m seeing in emerging Christianity: taking it slow, maintaining community, encouraging intellectual humility, and prioritizing good works. It’s not an easy proposition for me to consider, as my wife and I don’t miss church at all, and we’re really turned off by our former beliefs right now. But I wonder if serving a community that I disagree with and treating their language as allegory might make the world a better place.

 

I’m interested in hearing other opinions about this. How many ex-Christians do we have here who are still involved in a church? Have you come out about your deconversion and wished that you had taken more time and not been so open about it? Have you managed to come out with little damage to relationships and reputation?

[Guest wester]

Recommended Church readings:

Søren Kierkegaard

Fred Nietzsche

David Hume

and when they are ready

Baron D'holbach

 

Stay Strong

[TrueFreedom]

Hans Küng On Being a Christian is an interesting read.

[florduh]

I say be yourself and act accordingly. Perhaps if I were a politician I might pretend to agree with my constituency regarding their predominant religion in order to get elected. Politics relies heavily on lies by its very nature. Other than that, I see no use in lying about who I am.

 

"Uncle Tom" at one time had it better than blacks who weren't ashamed of their heritage and the majority of gays once avoided conflict by staying in the closet. Times have changed; let atheists and ex-Christians change with the times as well. By being open, I have discovered old friends who were atheists all along but were afraid to mention it.

 

But I wonder if serving a community that I disagree with and treating their language as allegory might make the world a better place.

Honesty will make the world a better place.

[ConureDelSol]

When I eventually come out I plan on still offering my help to my dad at the church every now and then. I want them to see that I'm still me and still a good person and the fact that I'm an atheist now doesn't change that. Plus, I enjoy the work I do at the church. I just don't enjoy the church. However, if I'm not welcome to come there anymore whether because my dad thinks it's ridiculous for an atheist to help a church or that all the Bible school students there try to pull the apologetics out of their asses that my DAD taught them thinking they can magically change my mind, then I just won't go anymore.

 

As it stands now though, I'm still in the closet and working for a church. Although I do have a second interview coming up with a pharmacy I applied to. I don't plan on coming out though until I have moved out and pay every single one of my bills so they can't use something like "We'll cut off your cell phone" as leverage against me. Not that I think they would actually do that, but it can't hurt to be cautious!

[TrueFreedom]

@wester: Thanks for the list of authors! Any particular texts that you had in mind? I've read a bit of Kierkegaard (not up for taking that leap). Nietzsche was an interesting fellow--brilliant, if not precise. Hume had tremendous insight. I may check out D'holbach--not familiar with him, but I enjoy German theologians.

 

@florduh: If it were only politicians who had to deal with politics... And what if I decide to go into politics later? I really do appreciate your perspective. I'm just not sure that I can be that way during this season of my life.

 

@CDS: I wish you the best in your future plans! I'm sorry that you have to go through your current "character building" experience, but it's great that you've conquered indoctrination at such a young age!

[TrueFreedom]

That was my 26th post! With that I graduated to "

Regular Member!"

[jblueep]

I am currently inclined to believe that I will miss the full experience of life if I choose to settle for relationships that do not accommodate my convictions.

 

Or maybe I'll just wind up as a pariah

 

I guess only time will tell

[Guest Xtech]

Throughout my deconversion process, I’ve thought a lot about how influential people in recent history treated their spiritual beliefs publicly. Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) kept his most irreverent beliefs to himself but wrote them down in order to publish them from the grave, 100 years after his death. He remained a popular author throughout his life. Benjamin Franklin, though a non-theist, identified as a Christian throughout his life and found that organized religion was necessary for motivating people to do good. He referred to himself as a deist AND a Christian in his autobiography. Charles Darwin continued to play a leading part in parish work at his local church after adopting an agnostic perspective. Thomas Paine, on the other hand, who authored the first draft of the Declaration of Independence, was demonized and discredited after publishing a criticism of Christianity. I don’t know of many true believers who are fond of Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins. I wonder if it might be more constructive to work with believers where they are, planting seeds of enlightenment wherever we can.

 

This is what I’m seeing in emerging Christianity: taking it slow, maintaining community, encouraging intellectual humility, and prioritizing good works. It’s not an easy proposition for me to consider, as my wife and I don’t miss church at all, and we’re really turned off by our former beliefs right now. But I wonder if serving a community that I disagree with and treating their language as allegory might make the world a better place.

 

I’m interested in hearing other opinions about this. How many ex-Christians do we have here who are still involved in a church? Have you come out about your deconversion and wished that you had taken more time and not been so open about it? Have you managed to come out with little damage to relationships and reputation?

 

You might want to look into Bishop John Spong. He's pretty much an atheist.

[TrueFreedom]

Xt: I appreciate Spong. I also appreciate Tony Jones, who manages to remain an evangelical, even though most of his views are liberal postmodern.

 

j: Do ALL of your relationships need to accommodate your convictions? I know a few atheists at work who just never talk about anything religious or spiritual. Actually, I don't think they ever talk about anything other than work or what to eat for lunch... :/

[blackpudd1n]

I am an atheist, I am a feminist, I have bipolar. That's just the way it is.

 

Having bipolar has taught me one thing: silence does not help anybody. Neither does innuendo, or working behind the scenes. Because I am open about my condition, others have found the courage to talk, too. Because I am open, a security guard at the hospital now understands that not all mentally ill people are violent. I put my face to my name in the paper, and a man thanked me, because his mother suffered in silence her whole life with bipolar. Because of my openness, my dad has discovered that two of his friends, who also knew each other, both have sons with bipolar. neither of them knew about the other, and they now have support in each other. Before, they, too, suffered in silence. That is just me, being open, and refusing to be silent about my condition.

 

Silence never helps anyone. Stand proud of who you are.

[TrueFreedom]

Thanks, bp. I appreciate your perspective. My goal is not to be silent, but to be intentional with accomplishing priorities. I care deeply about theists and non-theists, and I want to make life better for both! Unfortunately for us, most people are not likely to change their minds about their deeply-held religious beliefs during our lifetimes. We have to make decisions about how to get along with our neighbors and their current belief systems. When I figure out my message I will speak out and stand strong. In the meantime, it might be best to focus on common ground and appreciate what everyone has to offer, even the morsels of wisdom which my superstitious neighbors may have to offer.

[jblueep]

j: Do ALL of your relationships need to accommodate your convictions? I know a few atheists at work who just never talk about anything religious or spiritual. Actually, I don't think they ever talk about anything other than work or what to eat for lunch... :/

 

It's an evolving theory for sure. I certainly don't think it's important for clients or people I only peripherally know. For real friends and family, I can't see keeping it a secret. Time will tell if this is the correct theory

[Galien]

I always thought pretending was the same as lying.....and if not an outright lie it still reeks of some kind of deception....

[blackpudd1n]

Thanks, bp. I appreciate your perspective. My goal is not to be silent, but to be intentional with accomplishing priorities. I care deeply about theists and non-theists, and I want to make life better for both! Unfortunately for us, most people are not likely to change their minds about their deeply-held religious beliefs during our lifetimes. We have to make decisions about how to get along with our neighbors and their current belief systems. When I figure out my message I will speak out and stand strong. In the meantime, it might be best to focus on common ground and appreciate what everyone has to offer, even the morsels of wisdom which my superstitious neighbors may have to offer.

 

Would I be right in thinking you are referring to tolerance here? The best post I've seen on this forum in regards to the limits of tolerance was by norton65ca, which I'll post here:

 

"tolerance only goes so far, and has limits, and so it should.

In times gone by, there was no tolerance of dissent, no tolerance of unorthodox opinions. For example, in 15th century England, if you deviated from the theological norms, you were likely to end your life on the block or gallows. A protestant, in Mary Tudors England, would certainly be burnt at the stake for expressing opinions which varied from the position of Rome. In turn, the protestant regime of the successors of Elizabeth I had little mercy for popish plots. I have read much about the reformation and the religious wars of that time, and I used to own very old books about the trials and bloody executions of dissenters and the Scottish Covenanters and so on.

We, even in an enlightened society, are asked to tolerate much, in order that we not offend. This is an impossibility. I cannot tolerate all religions, and I will not. I don't tolerate gay people being referred to as sodomites. I don't wish to tolerate the medieval concept that all who don't worship a certain deity are worthless vessels of dishonour that are destined from birth to be burned as an offering for a god for all eternity. I will not tolerate a "God" who commands his followers through his prophets to disembowel pregnant women and dash the foetuses heads against rocks (Book of Hosea if you're wondering) or the same god ordering the mass slaughter of all men, women and children in a city, leaving the virgin girls to be raped by their conquerors. (Deuteronomy or Leviticus, can't quite remember which) This is disgusting, barbaric and loathsome and no civilized society should be "tolerating" this medieval belief system, in my opinion.. I don't tolerate Islamic scriptural references to infidels and what should be done with them. I despise the writings in the Talmud that refer to non jews as Goyim and advocates killing them both without mercy and without guilt, it is sanctioned by Yahweh. The same book condones child rape as well, so does the bible. I cannot admit tolerance for animist religions in Africa that advocate genital mutilation of virgin girls.

 

What I am compelled to do by this mixed up society we live in is tolerate anyone's desire to follow these sick and twisted theologies. And this I do, to a point. But when society tells me I must respect religions of all stripes, I cry foul. There is nothing in this world that will cause me to tolerate these ancient, destructive and divisive fantasy religions, and I would like nothing more than to see them ALL eradicated forever from the face of the earth. But I do RESPECT the RIGHT (which we as humans have bestowed, not some god) of anyone to believe whatever rubbish they choose to believe, this is my duty as someone who lives in a pluralistic society. I respect the mans right to believe and worship his god as he or she sees fit, but don't ask me to respect their religion, as I would rather spit on it. As for anyone who attempts to indoctrinate me of any of my family into these barbaric bronze age belief systems, they will not receive much of a welcome by me. This includes idiots in the public forum who attempt through disingenuous lies to convince society at large to rescind tolerance for all who don't believe as they suggest (Rick Santorum and his various attacks on liberty for example.) keep the rilijun to yerself Rickky boy.

That's my take on tolerance and compromise. There is no meeting ground in the middle, it would be lovely world if there were but there isn't. I, according to all my old Christian friends (I was one for decades) am firmly destined for the fires of hell for all eternity, and that's fine, but if they come anywhere near my grandson and try to convince him of the merits of this belief system, I'll blacken their self righteous eyes so fast it'll make your head spin."

 

(originally posted here: http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/50775-investigating-dawkins/ post 65)

[florduh]

blackpudd1n, I'm really starting to like you a lot!

[TrueFreedom]

j: I hope that your decision only makes your family relationships that much better.

 

bp: It's not about tolerating bad behavior. It's about being strategic in influencing change, patiently, respectfully, honoring people who disagree with you. It's about standing on the shoulders of our ancestors, rather than discrediting their hard work which was meant for good and has been responsible for much good. It's about re-defining terms and disarming barbaric ideas from a position of mutual trust. I realize that using "trust" might sound shady, since we're talking about dishonesty in certain areas, and I'm not sure that I can actually live this way, but you can be honest about what's important without representing every opinion openly.

 

We all lie about many things everyday. If we didn't our society would be a mess. When you are sad but still put a smile on your face and tell someone good morning you're lying. When you die your hair you're lying. I'm glad that I played the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and Tooth Fairy games with my kids. I think it helped them to get beyond Christian indoctrination. I wonder if I might be able to play the same game with kids in older bodies who haven't moved beyond their Super-Santa yet (I consider myself a child as well, btw, even in my 40s--I mean no disrespect in this comparison).

[florduh]

We have to make decisions about how to get along with our neighbors and their current belief systems.

Yes, how do we 'get along' with neighbors who may be racist, delusional, homophobic and generally intolerant? Pretending to agree with them doesn't seem a viable solution to me. Maybe 'getting along' shouldn't be the goal. Almost everyone has some fear and reservations about 'coming out' from the dominant beliefs that surround them. We get that, but many of us have realized you can't lie forever and the value of leaving religion is personal freedom and the chance to live a genuine life.

[TrueFreedom]

Yes, how do we 'get along' with neighbors who may be racist, delusional, homophobic and generally intolerant?

Many of us were once the same way and were unable to be influenced by those who had left the church and become intolerant of our beliefs. When I first saw Richard Dawkins in a video I thought he was an arrogant liar. I couldn't consider a single argument from him. I'm glad you've found freedom after coming out, but I'm trying to take my time to figure out what's most important long-term.

[florduh]

Yes, how do we 'get along' with neighbors who may be racist, delusional, homophobic and generally intolerant?

Many of us were once the same way and were unable to be influenced by those who had left the church and become intolerant of our beliefs. When I first saw Richard Dawkins in a video I thought he was an arrogant liar. I couldn't consider a single argument from him. I'm glad you've found freedom after coming out, but I'm trying to take my time to figure out what's most important long-term.

I don't think it is my role to influence Christians or show them the error of their ways. My priority is not to refrain from rocking the boat at all costs including my own integrity. It is my role to be me, to be honest, and take any shit that comes my way for being in the minority. It takes guts to come out of the closet, but eventually it's the only option.

[2Honest]

Interesting thread, TF. I think for us, keeping quiet is not an option. We sincerely love our Christian friends and family members. But we're the type of people who go "all in" when we believe in something. We put our time, resources and even devotion into things that are important to us. That's how it was for us in the church. It was our conviction to totally live what we believed. So when we had serious doubts we couldn't stomach leading small groups and worshiping in church services.

 

I'd literally hide in the bathroom before leading our small group so I could try to pull myself together before facing anyone - it felt horrible. I avoided getting into conversations with people before and after church. It was too hard to just smile and pretend when they shared what "god was doing in their lives". It was especially difficult to hide how I felt around people I knew were struggling b/c of their faith like I had been. I loved them and could see how deceived they were and it broke my heart. There was no way I could have stayed and tried to plant "seeds of doubt".

 

Now that we are free-thinkers we must live what we truly believe and NOT live what we don't believe. While we do still recognize that some people can find a sense of peace & well-being in Christianity, we can't get past the big picture. We see so starkly now the injustices being done to people in the name of faith/religion. We've realized that even the grace/love oriented versions of Christianity are harmful to people. We experienced that first-hand and have watched many others who've been hurt (even if they don't yet realize it).

 

I agree that there does need to be a better platform for Christians and non-Christians to have a dialogue. It saddens me that the moment a person becomes an unbeliever their Christian friends won't listen to them. But I don't know if allowing people to assume you still believe is the answer. I think their indoctrination is so deep that it may be pointless to come at it that way.

 

I guess I agree w/Florduh - I don't feel like it is my job to show Christians the error of their ways. When I was a believer I wouldn't have listened to a non-believer, either. Like I said, it's a big picture issue. The whole culture needs to change. I think the more people like us are real and honest about who we are, the more that change will happen. If we don't "come out", the misconceptions and misunderstandings about freethinkers/atheists/unbelievers will only continue. People must see that we are real, loving and GOOD people. We have nothing to hide!

 

This is precisely why J and I are thinking of starting a website and possibly a documentary. I think we can do much more good in this world by being open and "living large".

[TrueFreedom]

Thanks, 2H. I appreciate your perspective. I've been encouraged by recent belief trends, as well as by the behavior of educated, secular/progressive societies. My opinion on the matter has changed a few times over the past few years. I would have outed myself a long time ago if I'd had my wife's agreement on the decision. We manage to avoid the subject and the need to pretend with family and friends most of the time, but they worry about us. It would be nice to just get it all out in the open. They know that we haven't attended church in years, and we used to be in leadership. I've also never been one to keep my thoughts and opinions to myself. So I probably couldn't pull off what I've been talking about in this thread anyway. But many philosophers and theologians have been able to make a positive impact on how people think. Hopefully our time has come, and society will accept us if we are vocal. Perhaps our family will be able to join yours in the open disdain of fundamentalists when the time is right. I certainly support you (and I hope that the fundies that you care about won't hate or disrespect you).

[blackpudd1n]

Yes, how do we 'get along' with neighbors who may be racist, delusional, homophobic and generally intolerant?

Many of us were once the same way and were unable to be influenced by those who had left the church and become intolerant of our beliefs. When I first saw Richard Dawkins in a video I thought he was an arrogant liar. I couldn't consider a single argument from him. I'm glad you've found freedom after coming out, but I'm trying to take my time to figure out what's most important long-term.

I don't think it is my role to influence Christians or show them the error of their ways. My priority is not to refrain from rocking the boat at all costs including my own integrity. It is my role to be me, to be honest, and take any shit that comes my way for being in the minority. It takes guts to come out of the closet, but eventually it's the only option.

 

The thing that I keep in mind, is that we never know who is watching us from the sidelines. Usually, the people observing us the most, are children. Children see, hear, and think more than we usually give them credit for. They will be the judges of our actions, not some man in the sky. At this point in time, I only have to be able to look myself in the eye. But the day will come when I have to face my darling nephew, and not only explain the circumstances of my falling out with his mother (I exposed her drug use to the family), but also tell him that I was wrong, and explain to him why I was wrong about god, and ask him to forgive me for taking him to Sunday School and allowing him to be indoctrinated. And he will expect nothing but the truth, because he knows that his aunt tells him the truth.

 

And that goes for every other child in my life. They are the ones who watch me, and they are the ones that I will have to look in the eye. To hell with the adults- they're big enough and ugly enough to deal with it.

[buffettphan]

The thing that I keep in mind, is that we never know who is watching us from the sidelines. Usually, the people observing us the most, are children. Children see, hear, and think more than we usually give them credit for. They will be the judges of our actions, not some man in the sky. At this point in time, I only have to be able to look myself in the eye. But the day will come when I have to face my darling nephew, and not only explain the circumstances of my falling out with his mother (I exposed her drug use to the family), but also tell him that I was wrong, and explain to him why I was wrong about god, and ask him to forgive me for taking him to Sunday School and allowing him to be indoctrinated. And he will expect nothing but the truth, because he knows that his aunt tells him the truth.

 

And that goes for every other child in my life. They are the ones who watch me, and they are the ones that I will have to look in the eye. To hell with the adults- they're big enough and ugly enough to deal with it.

 

I agree. One set of my grandchildren is being raised fundy-xtian. One of the worst days of my life was the day my then five-year old grandson burst into tears one morning during breakfast because he was upset that I -- his most favorite person on earth -- am going to hell. I was livid that he had been taught such shit, but I have to be careful what I say around him for fear of being banned from his life. I don't pretend to believe, but I also don't "preach" (for lack of a better word). When I have the opportunity, I point out christian hypocrisy among his teachers, classmates, and in the news. When he comes to my house, he devours my kids' books and dvds on science, evolution, and other secular topics. He's 13 now and has been indoctrinated in christian schools his entire life. But he is a thinker. I picked him up from preschool on one of his first days when he was four years old. That day they had a lesson on the creation story. When she said that god created Adam and Eve and the whole earth, he asked "Who made god?" I grinned and said "Good for him!" His teacher whined saying that he asks too many questions and that some things are simply mysterious.

 

I am the only ex-christian in his life -- or in any of my family's life for that matter.

 

I just read a powerful comment by Ocean on the main blog that speaks to this. So I thought I'd post part of it here.

 

I am still amazed at the range of bizarre behavior that goes on in some Christian minds, and I believe it is important to illuminate this behavior at every opportunity.

 

 

 

You are generous to excuse this letter-writer because the person is "parroting mainstream Christian concept." I am not so generous and feel that such people should be held accountable. I know this is a complicated issue. People have the legal right to spout this, despite the fact that it harms some people, especially children. You say that your children will never have to fear a nonexistent being that hates them.... the fact is that the damaging Christian memes reach non-Christian children. We brought our son up with no religion (we did celebrate a secular Christmas, but I doubt he knew anything of the religious context). In fact, I portrayed any god that there may be as completely kind and loving. In middle school, a proselytizing young girl targeted him. I didn't find out about this for several years, and then I learned that, although he was then a mature, analytical person, pretty much an evolutionist, the fear she had instilled in him in middle school was not yet completely gone. I was furious to hear this (though I talked about it calmly and logically). The Christian memes are potent because of their frightening threats. While it rarely is of use to confront these people, diplomatic statements can be made to blunt the effect their memes have on those in earshot. And, I do believe that their message should be countered privately with any children that have been exposed to it.

 

http://new.exchristi...mment-513097090

[TrueFreedom]

Even before I lost all belief I was planting seeds of doubt in the minds of children and teaching them to question. I got my wife to agree never to put the fear of hell into our kids before we had them, since that tormented me throughout my childhood, and I considered them "saved" from they day they were conceived. Whenever I noticed hypocrisy in a lesson I would bring up scripture that contradicted that idea.

 

The method that I have in mind is to allegorize and change the meaning of these beliefs so that the cherished teachings of the church become a romantic description of relationships with other people, ourselves, and our world (only the cherished teachings--everybody ignores or explains away the teachings that they can't stomach anyway).