I'm Not Really Sure What I Call Myself... Here's My Story.

[SoftIce]

Hi everyone. I hope that it's okay if I post in this section (I read the rules, and I'm not sure if I'm considered a Christian or not.. I'm not even sure what I am at this point.).

 

So, if this post is in anyway offensive or upsetting to anyone, please feel free to delete it or move it somewhere else. I didn't see a section for introductions, so this was the closest I could find. I hope it's okay.

 

Okay... so here goes...

 

Hiya. My name is Michelle. I'm 28 years old. I was raised in a liberal non-denominational Christian household (although technically we were Lutheran.)

 

Up until I was 18, I didn't really have any problems with my faith.

 

I was, however, passionate about gay rights. And since so many christians were against gays having the right to marry, or sighting the Bible for how they were 'abominations', I used to get into long drawn out arguments on internet forums over the infamous verses. I learned what the original words were, and the context, and many of those things. And I argued heatedly with other Christians about it. Who knows if I was even in the right. All I know is that saying gay people were evil because they loved someone of the same gender just felt morally *wrong* to me.

 

I don't think I ever really thought about 'hell'... in any depth at least. I don't think I ever believed an 'eternal' torment could exist. Maybe I wasn't looking at some parts of it logically, or I was just thinking about other things in my life at that point.At this same time period, I remember hearing that an online friend I knew had died in a car accident, and how relieved I was when I found out she had been a 'Devout Christian'.

 

Around this time (when I was 18), I got back in touch with a very good friend that I had known since I was three. Her family is Jewish, but like mine, they were pretty laid back. Anyway, both of us had gone to seperate middle and high schools, and we had lost contact over that period of years. But, we ended up at the same local community college, and with both of our respective friends leaving us behidn to go to other schools, we ended up hanging out again.

 

It didn't take long for us to become just as close as we were before. If I was going to describe her, I'd say she is more like a sister to me than a friend. Anyway, at this point I was about 20. At this time I also took a world religions class, which I enjoyed a lot. I was already very interested in Hinduism and Buddhism, and Islam and other religions, so I had a good time. I also was at a point where I found myself annoyed by a lot of Christians because of how they acted (holier than thou, they're right, you're wrong, etc).

 

So... I can't remember exactly what happened... but somehow I became more caught into the concept of hell. I might have been arguing with some of the Christians on the forum I frequented then, and maybe one of them pointed out to me that it was a supposed tenant of the Christian faith.

 

Either way, I now had a big problem on my hands. I found the idea of a higher power torturing its creations for eternity, for ANY reason morally repugant. At this time, I started visiting other sites, like the skeptics anointed bible and evilbible. I had known for a while there were morally repugant verses in the Bible. Before this point I had used them in arguments to show the dangers of just quoting a verse out of 'context' to make a point. I realized that many of these verses were morally horrid, no matter WHAT context you place them in.

 

Around this time I was about 21ish, I believe. I had learned about Pauline Christanity, and I had become very wary of the Bible as it is now, thinking that whatever religion Jesus had originally taught, probably had become so twisted and mistranslated and used for politics over the couple thousand years or so since he started it, that what was found in the modern Bible was most likely a ton of politics of the times in which the particular parts were written.

 

I was also very wary of how something came to be considered 'canon' as well. With the Counsel of Nicaea, and how basically, PEOPLE voted on what was or was not considered 'Divine'. I was also very interested in learning about how many gospels had previously been floating around, either passed down orally or now and then on paper. I had heard that were were close to 30 or so gospels, and out of all of those, only four made the cut.

 

One justification for why there should only be four canon Gospels left me completly gobsmacked. Irenaeus wrote this:

"The Gospels could not possibly be either more or less in number than they are. Since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds, while the Church is spread over all the earth, and the pillar and foundation of the Church is the gospel, and the Spirit of life, it fittingly has four pillars, everywhere breathing out incorruption and revivifying men."

 

Are you @(#*%#% KIDDING ME?? Are you actually saying that the way they decided there should be FOUR FREAKING GOSPELS was because there was FOUR DAMNED WINDS?! What in the ever loving flying f*ck kind of 'divine' inspiration is that?!!

 

So yeah, after hearing that tidbid I basically threw canon out the window and went on to decide for myself what I considered 'divinely inspired' or not. Also, because of the fact that they decided based on their OWN freaking beliefs and most likely politics had a big play in it as well. What a load of crock.

 

So at this point, I basically decided to throw out anything that wasn't attributed to Jesus himself. I had already come to dislike Paul, because he was the one that seemed to have this giant beef with sexuality, AND he was sexist on top of it (not that he was the only one at this time period that was, though). I also saw a clear cut difference between the god of the OT and the NT. Basically the god of the OT was a monster. Killing people left and right. Demanding sacrifices. What a dick.

 

At this point I was around 22ish. I started having a crisis of faith, not knowing what the hell to believe in anymore. I felt like I was floundering. I still believed in Jesus, but a ton of stuff in the Bible went against my morals. And with the fact that the gospels were all written years after Jesus died, and that we don't even know the real authors... I felt like I had no idea who this Jesus person actually was anymore. I felt like whatever he originally taught had been twisted beyond regoniztion by the church and politics and all of that.

 

I started trying to find some way to link some sort of evidence with my beliefs. I needed something more than just faith. It was at this point that I got into near death experiences and out of body experiences. I found a site called near-death.com and spent hours reading over accounts others had had. Although I still didn't consider this evidence, it was something that I could hold onto, that was more than just vapors. I also found the accounts of out of body experiences, and of people seeing things that were happening while they were being opperated on, and stuff like that, to help further my belief that there was something after death. I know none of this could be considered evidence at all, but to me it is comforting.

 

So anyway, near-death.com has many sections on different topics, like Jesus, Buddha, pre-birth, hell, etc. Reading many of the accounts of people that experienced what they believed to be some of these topics, helped to cement my own beliefs on those subjects.

 

I also had done some digging on hell, and the original words that were used, and came to my own conclusions on it.

 

So basically, I had now formed my own beliefs. They had a basic very loose underlying about Jesus, based mostly on what he seemed to emphasize, such as loving each other. I still feel that Jesus became a speakerhead for other people's political views and own beliefs, so I have come to base what I think Jesus was like from sources outside of the canon gospels, because I feel like they can't be trusted and are full of people's own words being put in jesus's mouth. (I know my views are really contradictary... yay welcome to my life. on one hand, I believe in some form of Jesus, on the other hand, I hardly trust anything written about him.)

 

So anyway, because I was so distrustful of canon resources, I went after anything deemed uncanon and also people's near death accounts and such. With what I learned based on those, I lined up with what parts of what Jesus supposedly said in the canon gospels, and sort of ended up forming my own view on what he was trying to teach people.

 

I had stopped going to church a while ago at this point also, but I decided that I wanted to see if I could find any church that had views that were similar to my own. I found out about Unitarian Universalists, but it still felt like it was a bit too far from what I was comfortable with... and then I found Unity, and it totally clicked with a lot of my own views.

 

So... things were going along good for me. And then my aunt happened. My aunt is a conservative Christian. One day, she called my house, and found out that I was home alone. She then proceeded to come over, and corner me, and tell me that I was 'wrong' and that what I believed in was totally different from 'Real Christianity ' and blah blah blah. She tried to give me a pamphlet produced by some Evangelical Christian company on Christian 'Cults' but I politly refused it. So then she left.

 

This totally riled me up though, and had me all unsettled. I don't know why, but for some reason it brought on this fear of hell that I had never had before. I unfortantly stumbled onto a book written by someone that claimed to have been to hell, and it was the typical fire and brimestone type, and all that fun stuff.

 

For like, a few months, I felt totally paralized with fear. I started becoming afraid of being alone, and I'd always try to sit out with my family members, or be by someone whenever I could. Everything else in my life fell away for a while, because I was so consumed with this fear of the afterlife and hell, that everything paled in comparison. Funny enough, one thing that comforted me was watching law and order, special victims unit... I have no idea why. But it did.

 

Then... one day when I was surfing the net, I came across something called the rational responce squad. I clicked and went and looked around their forums. I found myself laughing at a lot of hte stories of crazy Christians that were posted, and agreeing with a lot of what people said on there (not on there being no God, but just on how loony so many religious people can be.) I then found youtube athiests, like Thunderf00t, and ZomgitsChris who I adore. (Shhhh... I totally have a crush on TF00t. he has a super sexy voice, ZomgitsChris has a sexy voice too... yeah unrelated and off topic there... ahem.)

 

And for some reason.... I still don't know why. I suddenly had this ephiphany or a-hah! moment. I realized that, with me, and all of my fucked-up-ness in regard to religion, i would STILL be in a much better spot than athiests would be, if there was a hell.

 

And THEN.. that thought lead to another thought. The athiests on the forum and the youtube athiests were genuinly nice people. I thught of the idea of Tf00t or Chris going to some everlasting torment. And guess what? That TOTALLY didn't sit right with me. Now that I had overcome my paralizing fear of hell, I was finally able to rationalize and look at it logically. And then I had another emphiany...

 

I could NEVER ever EVER believe in, let alone WORSHIP, a higher power/diety/god/whatver that allowed its creations to suffer in eternal agony. It just went against the very moral fiber of my very being. THIS was the simple belief that had always been there in the back of my mind, and probably what was causing me to have this fear over hell for several months... I felt like I was forcing myself to believe in God, out of fear of hell, which I in turn found to be so morally reprehensible that it made it impossible for me to believe such a God could exist, let alone that I should 'love' it. So it was a nasty catch 22.

 

And just like that, it was like a switch went off in my brain, and my entire fear melted away. I realized that there was no possible way I could ever love a God that would send people to hell. That I could never love a God that would punish people for nothing more than not believing a certain thing. That I could never love a God that created a situation where we needed to be 'saved' from something God created in the first place.

 

Suddenly I felt free to inquire and decide for myself just what I wanted to believe, without the fear of punishment looming over my head. I came to a decision. If a God did create me, then there is no possible way I can believe in that God being petty and evil enough to punish its creations for just beliving or not beliving in something. That only leaves teh option that any God that does exist has to be benevolent and not punish us for something as stupid as belief. That is the only option I can fit within my moral structure for a god existing.

 

And... if by some chance I happen to be wrong, and the fire and brimstone God that fundamentalist Christians believe in does exist. Well... I would rather go to hell than spend eternity worshping such a horrid and morally evil creature. I would rather be with my best friend, who is Jewish, than with a monster God like that.

 

And just like that.. there goes my fear of hell.

 

 

So... where does that leave me now, at 28? Well. I'm a whole lot more cynical than I was in my younger years, but I can't completly leave Christianity behind me either. On some level I still do have that fear of punishment, but it's so faint and beaten down by my own views of morality that it can hardly stand on its own anymore. I also have added beleifs of things like reincarnation, NDE's and out of body experiences. I also think that most religions that have the common theme of doing good to others, are just worshping the same higher power/diety/whatever but just giving it a different name.

 

I still believe in Jesus. I'm not exactly sure what I believe about him. I just know I'm not ready to leave him totally behind. I still flip flop over if I think he is a 'savior' or not... and when I do think of him as a 'savior', it's not of saving people from hell, it's more of being a guide or a teacher.

 

I have a lot of problems with the state of the world, and the fact that there are people starving to death, and born into horrible situations, for seemingly no reason whatsoever. That and that alone is probably the one thing that makes it seem that somedays there simply can't be a God, or if there is a God, he must be one gigantic sadistic prick. But on other days I try to rationalize what's happening on earth.

 

One of the themes I've seen in NDE's you go through a birth/death cycle again and again, and that this earth dimension is a school of sorts. That we are reborn again and again to learn certain lessons, and when we learned those lessons, we move onto different lessons. Or, the idea that we are reborn again and again in different enviorments, to teach us something. Sometimes I can use this idea to rationalize why the world is the way it is. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

 

So, I guess that concludes my story. I'm sorry that it's not really a de-conversion story. It's more of a 'shifting of beliefs' story... But, at this point I feel so alienated and far removed from what modern Christianity is, I don't feel like I can even call myself one anymore, or even want to call myself one.

 

Somedays I border on agnostic (something else I went through for a while in my early 20's)... but I guess in the end I still want to believe in something, whatever that ends up being.

 

Anyways, thanks for reading, and sorry if my post was rambling or incoherant. It was pretty much a stream of thought type of post.

[Margee]

Wellcome Softice. So glad to have you here at EX-c! I related so much to your post. You have done your share of investigating. Many of us here have. You sound very smart. I love some of the points you have brought up! But trying to discover what you really believe can leave one in the 'dark night of the sou'l!! It seems as if we get comfortable with a certain concept and then one more website draws us to more information. It can almost at make you crazy.

 

If you stay with us here, you'll find so much information. I can really relate to what you're saying about Jesus. At the very end stages of my deconverting from christianity , I took one of my bibles and destroyed every page and only left the four gospels. I was going to depend on only what Jesus said. He was my hero and I wasn't about to let go of him. Then I continued to investigate and found more alarming news! I will allow you to continue your own investigation.

 

Read, read, and read some more...... this website is full of knowledge and I know that you'll enjoy all the posts, because it sounds to me that you are hungry for more information.

 

As time goes by, you will find something that resonates in your heart. We will be here for you if you have any concerns or fears.

 

I am really looking forward to hearing more from you. Thank you so much for sharing your story with me today.

 

Sincerely, Margee.

[artist103]

I related as well. It mirrors my story. I no longer believe the bible to be the inspired works of God but even for those that do the Hell thing is a sham and mistaken at best. There is no concept of it in the old testament and the new testament has hell only 13 times but that is only in the translation. The Greek had 3 different words that were translated hell that just meant either the grave or destruction. Those fundamentalists don't even know the bible they claim to revere.

[♦ ficino ♦]

dear SoftIce, welcome to this site. I hope you stick around because you have a lot to offer, both what you've learned and how you see things. I loved reading your story. This is great:

 

"One justification for why there should only be four canon Gospels left me completly gobsmacked. Irenaeus wrote this:

"The Gospels could not possibly be either more or less in number than they are. Since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds, while the Church is spread over all the earth, and the pillar and foundation of the Church is the gospel, and the Spirit of life, it fittingly has four pillars, everywhere breathing out incorruption and revivifying men."

 

Are you @(#*%#% KIDDING ME?? Are you actually saying that the way they decided there should be FOUR FREAKING GOSPELS was because there was FOUR DAMNED WINDS?! What in the ever loving flying f*ck kind of 'divine' inspiration is that?!!"

 

 

Love it!

 

I also love the way your moral sense gives you such a center of your vision. Have you ever had a fundy demand to know "by what authority" you have your sense of right and wrong? I've heard that strategy a lot - it's an attempt to confuse the person so in the end they give up and accept the bible as their "authority." It's such a crock of an argument.

 

Peace, Ficino

[buffettphan]

Those fundamentalists don't even know the bible they claim to revere.

 

That's for sure!!!

 

Welcome to Ex-C.

[buffettphan]

Welcome to Ex-C, SoftIce. I think a lot of us can relate to your story. I bet, collectively, we've spent thousands of years researching and investigating before coming to the conclusion that whatever god may or may not be out there -- IT SURE ISN'T BIBLEGOD!

[Paine]

"...I still want to believe in something, whatever that ends up being."

 

You can.

 

Its called YOURSELF and the HERE AND NOW.

 

Why do you torture yourself to want anything "bigger"? Are YOU not good enough to believe in?

 

"Wanting" to believe is the natural state of humanity that has come together to civilize itself. Religion is a stabilizing and civilizing factor. ANd unfortunately, a corrupting factor, as well.

[LivingLife]

Welcome soft ice

[AlwaysNow]

Instead of trying to figure out what you believe in why not investigate the entity who seeks to hold onto a belief? In other words, ask "Who am I really?" and then look. It seems to me that that's the most important thing to discover. You've been told all your life who and what you are, and you no doubt have used that as the basis for your identity (most people do this), but is any of that actually true? Are you actually what you've been taught to believe about yourself? Once you discover what you actually are then questions about what to believe in take care of themselves.

 

Without using any previous "idea about me" that has been absorbed into your mind (usually given by others) who/what are you in reality? Do you see what this forces you to do? It forces you to be totally present now with "what is" rather than being distracted by thoughts about what is. All "ideas of me" are based on past thinking and all ideas about what might happen in the future are based on imagination. So without holding onto any idea about the past or future what exists right now? What remains when all ideas have dropped away? Whatever that is is what you are. Experiencing just one moment of clarity is enough to help you drop the shackles of belief that have been pounded into you since you were an infant, and it opens up the possibility of experiencing the world in a whole new way.

[jblueep]

Welcome SoftIce. I would definitely call you an EX-C

 

I consider myself an atheist (after 33 years of christianity), but I tend to believe that there is more than this life, whatever than dimension may be. IMO, it's fine to hold on to that as long as you live in the present.

 

Stick around and make some friends, and welcome again!

[SoftIce]

Thanks for all the welcomes!

 

Margee I've seen you around the forum, and you sound like a doll. You sound a lot like how I feel. There's still a bunch of unknowns in my life retarding my beliefs, and I've also learned about how so many early religions mirrored many of the concepts of Jesus as well (virgin birth, rose after 3 days, etc etc.).

 

I am really glad that I was born in an age where information is freely available, unlike the people that were born during the dark ages. I'm always craving more, and the internet is practically boundless with it.

 

I've never gotten into an argument over what I base my morals on with a fundie (yet), but I always thought the idea that you get your morals from the Bible or from any religion to be a steaming pile of bullcrap, even back when I WAS an Authentic Christian . It especially doesn't make sense because you have religious people doing horrible things and non religious people doing very moral things. Also, there's the fact that there's a ton of atrocities in the bible itself... so yeah, not the best moral guide out there. But.. there are some comon themes that I see in many religions, like the golden rule, even if other parts of the very religions that express it sometimes contradict it! Religion clearly was not creator of morals! If anything, religion only reflects what humanity has come to see as being the basic moral tenants that most cultures have (eg: treat others like you want to be treated.) But it in no way invented it.

 

Paine, I suppose I should say I wanted to believe in something 'bigger', and not just 'believe'. I DO try to believe in myself, but I struggle with depression and anxiety and self esteem issues. In that respect, I find my Unity faith to help me a lot. Although I don't believe everything that Unity does, I find that a lot of Unity people seem to fall into the same category as I do. We're a real missmass pot of people at my unity chuch. lol. For now, it's the community and the support that helps me a lot, because the people i've met through unity accept me just as I am. I also frequent a forum for people with mental issues, and I have a lot of support there as well.

 

I think it's interesting how humans cling to the concept of wanting to be something bigger than themselves. I can understand why though, and I think on some level it's related to the ego concept of self, of humans wanting to be more than they are. Or, it could be loneliness. The idea of being part of something that's more than just yourself makes you feel as if you aren't alone in the world, or universe.

 

Of course, I don't think that can only be something restricted to religion or spirituality! Something larger than yourself can be humanity itself! Or it could be the pillars of knowledge that all the people who have gone before us have left for us! Or, even the universe itself, on an atomic level! I especially love the last concept. The idea that we're all really made from star stuff! That just blows my mind! I also like the idea that we are connected to this earth. That after we die, after everything dies, it should go back into the earth, and become nutrients for future life.

 

Just a side note, on the pillars of knowledge thing, Thunderf00t made an AMAZING video based on this very concept. He called it the 'Ivory Tower'. (Has anyone guessed I have a small crush on Thunderf00t... lol. Knowledge is dead sexy! And he has a ton of it.)

 

AlwaysNow you bring up some very interesting points. Luckily, I was encouraged to discover what I thought and believed for myself as a kid, but then again, as a kid you usually just go with the flow and believe what your parents do, since at that age (for me at least) you think they know everything there is to know in the universe. And since we were Christian, I did do the Sunday School and Pioneer Girls as a kid. I always hated sunday school because it was boring beyond belief, but I did have a ton of fun at pioneer girls, and ironically enough, I don't remember any of the religious-y bits from it, just the bits where I was having a blast with the other girls and running around. We hopped around different churches, because I was always bored. But, I hated sunday school because it has the word 'school' in it, so I wanted to stay with my mom. I would bring coloring books and other crap to keep myself occupied.

 

I do have a few funny stories I can tell you guys about when I was a kid in church. One time, the priest was sprinkling holy water, and I ran and climbed under the pew to avoid getting wet. I was around five or so. Another time I remember screaming 'HI BECKY!!!11' at the top of my voice, from the upper level of a huge sanctuary, to my friend who was below. During the service. Heh. I was around 9 at that time.

 

Anyway, I think that what you brought up can go into philosophical areas too. I think it runs into the whole concept of the ego part of the self. Often I've wondered exactly what it is that makes us who we are. Is it our beliefs? Our personalities? A combo of both? I think it's something more than that. I'm not sure what though. I've always liked psychology, and the whole id, ego, and super-ego concepts. And since I still have.. uh... what you could call more spiritual beliefs as well, it ties into that too. (Like the concept of chakras, your higher self, etc.)

 

Anyway, I'm happy to be here, and I'll be sure to stick around and chime in now and again!

 

Oh, and on a totally random note, I love the Boogie Down Jesus emoticon.

[SoftIce]

Oh, and this is retarded, but how do you edit posts? I wanted to say sorry for my above post degenerating into a giant rambling mess... but I can't figure out how to edit it. *facepalm*

[hereticzero]

Welcome.

Any type of a deity responsible for creating the universe and everything in it, would be over itself by now and not be an emotional wreck of desire, pettiness, or jealousy, such as the god we find in religion, particularly Christianity. If a high power exists, it is delighted in its own power, having already proven its capability, so I would not envision this type of entity killing all of us off because of our unbelief in its existence. Sometimes I write of a divine power that resides in all of us. I believe this is so because we all have the ability to forgive, save, help, care for, all the attributes Christians give their god, we already have within us. A god is not required to be our moral compass. We are responsible for our own misery and we are responsible for our own happiness. I call myself an 'atheist' because I deny the existence of the Christo-Judaic god or gods. All of the rewritings of the babble are not going to prove anything other than that their doctrines are based upon mythological people existing with mythological creatures. Their opinions of themselves and their religion doesn't mean much to most people but many of us who were once in the Christian religion perceive them as a threat to humanity. If you understand the church's doctrine, world domination and crushing the human spirit with Christian doctrine is their agenda. To make all things subjective under Christ

[jblueep]

Oh, and this is retarded, but how do you edit posts? I wanted to say sorry for my above post degenerating into a giant rambling mess... but I can't figure out how to edit it. *facepalm*

 

I think you have to have 25 posts before you can edit.

[SoftIce]

Interesting post HereticZero!

 

A lot of your ideas are very similar to my own. While I still believe in some kind of external higher power, I also have a lot of beliefs similar yours, like the idea that we have some kind of devine core, or part of ourselves, that's within all of us. Then of course we can get into how someone defines 'devine'.

 

I also agree with the idea that a lot of religions put humans and even the earth in SUCH high regard, that it is absurd. If you think about the universe, and how many galaxies there are, with how many billions of stars, it's just absurd to think that we're the ONLY life out there. (That's just my own belief though. I don't think we're alone in the universe and I think there's other intelligent life that exists out there. Yes, I'll just put on my trusty tinfoil hat now. Whoot. They Are Out There!)

 

So the idea that the creator of the entire universe, which is just... bigger than we can even comprehend almost, chose OUR planet, and picked some random REMOTE spot on OUR TINY INSIGNIFICANT SPECK OF DUST to reveal itself to some random dudes.. it's just absurd.

 

Because really, in comparison to the entire universe, the earth IS a speck of dust.

 

It reminds me of this quote on fundamentalism that went something like this:

 

Fundamentalism: The idea that an all powerful God that created the entire Universe and the billions of stars and galaxies in it, is deeply concerned with our sex lives.

 

If anyone knows what quote I'm talking about, could they post it? I know I worded it all wrong and my google-fu is weak today.

 

One idea that I toy with now and then, is the thought that this higher power, or this thing that consists of everything, reveals itself to multiple life forms on multiple planets, and in multiple forms that the inhabitents of that planet would be able to recognize. Yeah I know that's totally out there and unfounded, but eh... I still love stuff like that.

 

Oh, and jblueep, thanks for letting me know about the point number. I was wondering if I was just missing some huge button or something.

[Mitzer]

Hi SoftIce. I much enjoyed reading what all you had to say. Welcome, and thanks! Pretty close to my experiences as far as questioning about just what all is really involved concerning our existence. I'm one of those who's had a NDE (a somewhat watered down version is in the Spirituality section if you'd like to read it)(Lol...I'm QUITE wary of those who claim that their NDE gives them the right to make any claims about any dieties or messages from beyond!). What I've come away with and learned from it caused me to do much research. What makes sense to me is much of what you've said, what HereticZero said and a couple others. As for myself, I feel there is no God or gods but there is a consciousness that drives physics. We incarnate into physical existence...we're here...the "ethereal" is there...it's eternal back and forward in time and happens over and over again and again...and that's just the way it is. However, this is my personal take, and I have no right to try to convince or influence others. I trust in the (likely distant) future that physics will show us if there is any truth concerning consciousness (and I'm about 99% comfortable there is without the blessing or condemnation of physicists...not that I'm that intellectual...lol).

That said, sure is interesting to discuss it!

[JadedAtheist]

Good luck on your journey, there is no need for a label if you do not want one. With time you will find where you feel the most comfortable, and that's what matters not the label you choose to identify yourself with.

[Akheia]

Hi and welcome! Agreed, you don't have to call yourself anything at all until you want to. Labels define us; when someone assumes a label, it can define them, which is both a good and a potentially bad thing. So don't feel compelled to do anything at all until you feel ready.

 

I'm a huge Thunderf00t fan too I find his voice simply hypnotic.

 

Welcome, and don't be a stranger

[Mitzer]

Hi, SoftIce...one of your posts seems to have vanished...the one where you suggested Rupert Sheldrake and Bruce Lipton's YouTube vid. I'd never heard of them. I went to YouTube and listened to the first part (of ten). Fascinating! I'll be viewing the whole thing when I have more time. So, thanks so much for that link!

It's funny...being a creative person and one who's worked in the creative field for decades, it's funny that we creatives learn to "think out of the box" (some of my absolute best projects have come from the craziest ideas and daydreaming...lol). Yet both science (through acadamia and government funding) and religion seem to forbid this. I find that very strange especially for science. Science seems to be saying "we don't know everything, but we're damned smart enough to know what isn't right". Not at all scientific, IMO.

[SoftIce]

lols. I totally forgot about this thread. Which is sad considering I started it. Anyways...

 

Any type of a deity responsible for creating the universe and everything in it, would be over itself by now and not be an emotional wreck of desire, pettiness, or jealousy, such as the god we find in religion, particularly Christianity.

 

Hi HeriticZero, I've seen you around the forums and you seem like a pretty cool and wise person.

 

I totally agree with you. It just makes absolutely no sense. I mean, think about it. An all powerful being, that created the entire universe, happens to be deeply concerned about what a random species a spec of dust in the entire universe, happens to worship and what their sex practices or what they happen to eat and on what day. And that this diety would require offerings and such.

 

That makes absolutely NO SENSE WHAT SO EVER. The only way it would make sense is 2000 or so years ago, because humans knew that we're about the size of an electron in comparison to the entire universe. We're a spec. (don't quote me on size comparisons. I'm not a scientist!)

 

... Pretty close to my experiences as far as questioning about just what all is really involved concerning our existence. I'm QUITE wary of those who claim that their NDE gives them the right to make any claims about any dieties or messages from beyond!As for myself, I feel there is no God or gods but there is a consciousness that drives physics. We incarnate into physical existence...we're here...the "ethereal" is there...it's eternal back and forward in time and happens over and over again and again...and that's just the way it is.

 

Hi Mitzer. You're thoughts on physics are very interesting! I too don't think someone can use NDES or OBEs to 'prove' an afterlife or whatnot, but in my own mind they do prove (to myself) the idea at least that we have some kind of soul or consciousness. Again, not saying I can prove such a thing, it's just my own take on it. I read your NDE and I got a lot out of it. Thanks so much for sharing something so personal to you.

 

I think such a notion as an afterlife will always be unprovable, just because of the nature of it. Well then again, who knows what the science of 1,000 years will look like (as long as we manage to not blow ourselves up before that.) They've already managed to grow a rat brain in a petri dish, starting with some neurons, and then the neurons made connections inside the dish, and they were able to hook this up to a machine and the petri dish rat brain was able to control the movements of it. That's pretty wild to me. I also think the petri-brain had a memory of like 30 seconds or something. Could be wrong on that though.

 

I find your take on a consciousness driving physics to be quite interesting. I never really thought about it in those words, but I think I too have a similar belief. Although I still to believe there is a higher power, I also think that people call it different things.

 

In a way, I could almost say one interpretation of a higher power, that doesn't rest on spirituality, could be the based on a the conversation of mass; that matter cannot be destroyed, only changed. (Although I think quantum physics throws a nice little wrench into this law. But then again quantum physics seems to make things complicated on many levels.)

 

Often I find myself comforted by the idea that our bodies, our planet, is literally made up of 'star stuff'. This concept seems to be out there and new age-y on the surface but it's actually based on pure science. Since stars are what originally produced all the elements, including the heavy ones, we all literally come from something that was created billions of years ago. (Again, rusty on my science....) I find that thought to be so comforting. The idea that although our physical body changes, we never really disappear, we just take the form of something else (unless we're stuck in a coffin, then we can't really be reabsorbed into hte earth.) Also, the fact that out of the elements produced, the heavy elements are produced on a lot smaller scale than the lighter ones, which makes me feel even more special. (Again, rusty on the science.)

 

I get the same comforting feeling from watching time lapse videos of a dead animal (I know icky), where it bloats and then decompresses, and overtime you see it slowly start to become reabsorbed into the earth, and then plants begin to poke through it, using the nutrients it emitted into the earth as their own food. So in a way, even if the animal is no more, it lives on in a way in the plants that use its body for their own growth. In a way it's allowing another new life to come into existence. I love this concept.

 

Good luck on your journey, there is no need for a label if you do not want one. With time you will find where you feel the most comfortable, and that's what matters not the label you choose to identify yourself with.

 

Hi and welcome! Agreed, you don't have to call yourself anything at all until you want to. Labels define us; when someone assumes a label, it can define them, which is both a good and a potentially bad thing. So don't feel compelled to do anything at all until you feel ready.

 

I'm a huge Thunderf00t fan too I find his voice simply hypnotic.

 

Welcome, and don't be a stranger

 

Thanks JadedAthiest and Akheia. I think that's some of the best advice someone can give. And not just pertaining to religion. This is a bit off topic, but for a long time I struggled with my sexuality. I'd go from thinking I was straight, to gay, to bi, and then back again. Then someone said just stop labeling yourself. Whatever you are is what you are. That made me feel so much better and just... relieved. Society has this knack for liking to orgnanize people and put them under labels and categories, and sometimes if you aren't sure what label you fit under, it causes a huge stress.

 

On the other hand, sometimes having a way to give a name to what you feel can help (for me at least.) I still hold onto the idea that I have some'Christian' beliefs, although I know nearly all CHristians would not consider me Christian in the least. This is probably because it's so hard to break away from something you identified with for your entire life. I finally decided on the idea of looking at what the overall message Jesus supposedly taught was, which was helping others. Of course, there's plenty of religions that have similiar ideals, and there's many passages attributed to Jesus I disagree with, and I'm wary of the Bible in general. But, another memeber said something that stuck me... just to take away from it what you think will better your life, and that's what I've decided to do, for that area of my life anyway.

 

Oh and Akheia, YAY so glad to find another TF00t lover. I feel in love with his videos (and his voice... *cough*. I just find his sheer amount of knowledge to be sooooo impressive, and the way he talks, so composed and intricate. Ah I love him to bits.

 

 

Hi, SoftIce...one of your posts seems to have vanished...the one where you suggested Rupert Sheldrake and Bruce Lipton's YouTube vid. I'd never heard of them. I went to YouTube and listened to the first part (of ten). Fascinating! I'll be viewing the whole thing when I have more time. So, thanks so much for that link!

It's funny...being a creative person and one who's worked in the creative field for decades, it's funny that we creatives learn to "think out of the box" (some of my absolute best projects have come from the craziest ideas and daydreaming...lol). Yet both science (through acadamia and government funding) and religion seem to forbid this. I find that very strange especially for science. Science seems to be saying "we don't know everything, but we're damned smart enough to know what isn't right". Not at all scientific, IMO.

 

Hey Mitzer. I THINK that was Lightfoot who posted Rupert Sheldrake and Bruce Lipton's YouTube vid. (And Lightfoot - I AM SO SORRY if I got your name wrong, i'm going on memory! I know it was 'Light' something...DX )

 

Oh, that's awesome that you're creative!! I love finding other creative people! What kind of art do you do? I do a lot of computer graphics, but when I have time I love to paint with acrylics (cheapest lol and no toxic fumes.. yay). I also love sketching with graphic, and also using watercolor pencils (I'd use water colors but I don't have the money to get the good paper and all that.)

love video editing in general really.

 

I've always had a love of science. I always did really good in my classes. Too bad my math is fail, though. lol. I love watching Nova, Nat Geo, Discovery, and the Science Channel (THE HOLY GRAIL OF AWESOME). Too bad I don't get the science channel though. I have to mooch it off my friend's digital cable when I'm at her house. Well maybe it's better that way, otherwise I'd be watching that channel all day long. I also love any shows that have to do with space. Space has always held a HUGE fascination for me.

 

Sorry, this turned into a rambling post. Once again. Thanks for all the replies you guys!

[mcdaddy]

Your story is EERILY similiar to mine. Only major difference being I don't believe Jesus ever actually existed. If you watch Truthsurge's videos, excavating the empty tomb, and his other series about Mark being written as intentional fiction, you'll see why. I may be wrong, maybe he existed, but he definitely ain't Yahweh in the flesh or whatever.

[SoftIce]

Your story is EERILY similiar to mine. Only major difference being I don't believe Jesus ever actually existed. If you watch Truthsurge's videos, excavating the empty tomb, and his other series about Mark being written as intentional fiction, you'll see why. I may be wrong, maybe he existed, but he definitely ain't Yahweh in the flesh or whatever.

 

It's funny how so many of us seem to go through the similar phases in reevaluating our beliefs, and what not. I'm still not sure where I stand on the whole Jesus thing. Like I said, letting go of that last remnant of something you believed for your entire life is.. well... pretty hard to do. Then again, coming from a family that encouraged you to think about your beliefs, I also don't feel the guilt/fear that many probably do feel. Although, there was a period where I did and was almost paralyzed by it.

 

Jesus is such a strange and odd term for me, and that name conjures up a lot of conflicting thoughts, feelings, beliefs and ideas.

 

One thing that I've always had is beliefs that lined up more with what people would consider 'new age-y', although I'm not sure how 'new-age' they actually are. Stuff like reincarnation, out of body experiences, astral travel. It probably is because I'm drawn to 'mysterious' ideas such as those to begin with. I do think it is a form of compartmentalizing, at least the part about still incorporating any of the religions here on earth into my belief structure. This is because the concept that a higher power only paid attention to a spec of dust in the entire universe is absurd to me.

 

So, my beliefs have been put through the ringer, and have rearranged themselves many times. Eventually, I've settled on my own set, they incorperate some religious ideas from religions, very loosely, but are also supplemented by NDEs, OBEs and perhaps reincarnation. I'm still not exactly sure what I believe, but I like having this safe environment where I'm able to play in my mental and spiritual sandbox without worrying that someone is going to start shouting 'NO! You're wrong!!11"

 

I think that's why I often find myself the most comfortable on agnostic or atheist boards, despite my not being an atheist and believing in some kind of higher power. Although, I might fall under 'agnostic' since I don't think we can prove there is such a thing, or that we can't prove such a thing. It gets kind of complicated though. I like being able to express my feelings and my beliefs and being able to admit that I don't know for sure. I also like the fact that people on these types of boards often don't tout their specific beliefs as the absolute truth, which is something I abhor. Sure, some people can say I know for a fact God/a higher power/etc doesn't exist. But that doesn't get on my nerves nearly as much as someone that says i KNOW this specific idea of God exists, or I know reincarnation exists, or I know yada yada exists.

[mcdaddy]

Your story is EERILY similiar to mine. Only major difference being I don't believe Jesus ever actually existed. If you watch Truthsurge's videos, excavating the empty tomb, and his other series about Mark being written as intentional fiction, you'll see why. I may be wrong, maybe he existed, but he definitely ain't Yahweh in the flesh or whatever.

 

It's funny how so many of us seem to go through the similar phases in reevaluating our beliefs, and what not. I'm still not sure where I stand on the whole Jesus thing. Like I said, letting go of that last remnant of something you believed for your entire life is.. well... pretty hard to do. Then again, coming from a family that encouraged you to think about your beliefs, I also don't feel the guilt/fear that many probably do feel. Although, there was a period where I did and was almost paralyzed by it.

 

Jesus is such a strange and odd term for me, and that name conjures up a lot of conflicting thoughts, feelings, beliefs and ideas.

 

One thing that I've always had is beliefs that lined up more with what people would consider 'new age-y', although I'm not sure how 'new-age' they actually are. Stuff like reincarnation, out of body experiences, astral travel. It probably is because I'm drawn to 'mysterious' ideas such as those to begin with. I do think it is a form of compartmentalizing, at least the part about still incorporating any of the religions here on earth into my belief structure. This is because the concept that a higher power only paid attention to a spec of dust in the entire universe is absurd to me.

 

So, my beliefs have been put through the ringer, and have rearranged themselves many times. Eventually, I've settled on my own set, they incorperate some religious ideas from religions, very loosely, but are also supplemented by NDEs, OBEs and perhaps reincarnation. I'm still not exactly sure what I believe, but I like having this safe environment where I'm able to play in my mental and spiritual sandbox without worrying that someone is going to start shouting 'NO! You're wrong!!11"

 

I think that's why I often find myself the most comfortable on agnostic or atheist boards, despite my not being an atheist and believing in some kind of higher power. Although, I might fall under 'agnostic' since I don't think we can prove there is such a thing, or that we can't prove such a thing. It gets kind of complicated though. I like being able to express my feelings and my beliefs and being able to admit that I don't know for sure. I also like the fact that people on these types of boards often don't tout their specific beliefs as the absolute truth, which is something I abhor. Sure, some people can say I know for a fact God/a higher power/etc doesn't exist. But that doesn't get on my nerves nearly as much as someone that says i KNOW this specific idea of God exists, or I know reincarnation exists, or I know yada yada exists.

 

You're an agnostic. I'm an agnostic. Everyone is an agnostic. Because noone REALLY KNOWS.

[SoftIce]

Too true.