Metroplex Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Now with the silly season (x-mas) almost upon us, I had a thought... The wise men who offered baby Jesus gifts and stuff, were astrologers... so... astrology is a sin according to the OT, as God says all who practice divination/magic/astrology are an abomination unto him... so... since Jesus IS God in human form and nothing sinful can come before his presence... how come he didn't say anything to this astrologers/magic arts practicioners!??? HELP! I'm in danger of losing the magic of christmas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilith Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Yea...I really struggled with this one too; just before my deconversion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 (As a pretend Fundy) God made the stars and the constellations to glorify Christ. The wisemen were Godly men who understood the meaning of God's creation. God put it in their heart to understand the stars so they were not really the evil Astrologers like the Bible talks about. They were glorifying Christ using God's creation which is different then what Astrology does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 The Magi part of the story is just one of the parts that show that the nativity story was pagan or borrowed from some other religion. Since, like you say, astrology is not kosher with God, but yet he uses the magi, and a celestial sign, the star to guide them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willybilly30 Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 Theirs many stories of people doing stuff like that in the bible. Winch makes me wonder why one person can do it while another cant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megistias Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 The Magi part of the story is just one of the parts that show that the nativity story was pagan or borrowed from some other religion. Since, like you say, astrology is not kosher with God, but yet he uses the magi, and a celestial sign, the star to guide them. Well, there is reason to believe it wasn't a star but a planet or planets. The ancients couldn't distinguish between stars and planets except that some stars "wandered" or moved differently gainst the backdrop of the heavens. So they would both be called stars. I read that Jupiter and Saturn appeared in the same place [conjunct] in the sky [in Pisces] three times during the year 6 or 7 B.C., but I suspect that any Christmas "star" was only observed on astrological charts - otherwise we'd expect the Chinese and other competent astronomers to have recorded a visible event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 stealing an idea... (as a pretend pentecostal word-faith type)... "Glory to God! Gloreeeeeee!! "When Jesus was born into this world, the Devil Trembled! TremmmbulllllleD!! "Why? Because he knew that Jesus was God! "Sure, God gave a sign to the church which was to come, by fulfilling the prophesies of the Law and the Prophets. But what about the world at large? Would God give a sign only to those who had the Word? How could He give revelation knowledge to only those who had the Scriptures? He came to save the whole world! He reached out to ALL of humanity in His great Love!! He had to give a sign to ALL MEN! "These three men who came from the East knew that Christ was born; by a sign that God gave. Remember in Genesis where God said the stars were for signs! Yes! Signs for God to show us that He's God! This wasn't astrology as we know it today...this was a once in a lifetime sign in the Heavens, just like Genesis says, for that season! "How do we know that the Magi saw a sign and knew that God was now on Earth? How do we know that they knew that the newborn Christ was GOD?? "Because they brought a seed-gift to Him! They brought of their riches and laid them at the feet of God... Jesus, who was so small in this world that He couldn't even talk to them yet! "But they knew from the Scriptures that if they gave God their best, that He would bless them back a hundred fold! And while they couldn't give the gifts to God Himself...they GAVE IT TO THE BODY OF CHRIST ON EARTH!!! "Well, Glory to God, we're outta time for this broacast, please listen as my anouncer comes to tell you how you to can learn more about seed-faith giving at this most Holy of times that we call Christmas..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 I read an interesting analysis of the whole star/planet thing which postulated that the "star" of Bethlehem was more likely Halley's Comet. It also argued that Jesus was closer to 50 when he was crucified, but that's neither here nor there. (I'll post the reference if anybody's interested.) In any case, my immediate answer to the OP is that the contradiction is there because the whole Bible is a conglomerate of man-made, edited, re-edited, mucked up religious writings from an obscure, aggressive sect of Judaism that should have died out long ago, and somebody just wasn't fact-checking well enough. But that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 Sure gwenmead, if you want to put it that way. Some of us here were trying to save Metroplex's magic of Christmas. Well, now that's all shot to Hell! (Is there a Smilie for 'tounge in cheek'?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted November 26, 2005 Share Posted November 26, 2005 Sure gwenmead, if you want to put it that way. Some of us here were trying to save Metroplex's magic of Christmas. Well, now that's all shot to Hell! (Is there a Smilie for 'tounge in cheek'?) Christmas is overrated anyway. It's all about Saturnalia, babee! 7 to 12 days of boozing, carousing, role reversals, gift-giving (and receiving), and general pagan mayhem. Woo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saxyroze Posted November 26, 2005 Share Posted November 26, 2005 What I never understood about that story is why Zoroastrian priests gave Jesus presents? The three wise men (magi) practiced Zoroastrianism, which is a completely different religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted November 27, 2005 Share Posted November 27, 2005 Gwenmead, Well, if you put it like that, 12 days of boozing, carousing, role reversals, and general mayhem might be enough to compensate for a case of Saturnalia once a year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megistias Posted November 28, 2005 Share Posted November 28, 2005 What I never understood about that story is why Zoroastrian priests gave Jesus presents? The three wise men (magi) practiced Zoroastrianism, which is a completely different religion. What exactly is the basis for claiming that there were 3 " wise men" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted November 28, 2005 Share Posted November 28, 2005 What I never understood about that story is why Zoroastrian priests gave Jesus presents? The three wise men (magi) practiced Zoroastrianism, which is a completely different religion. What exactly is the basis for claiming that there were 3 " wise men" ? I think Zoroastrianism is related to Mithraism so that would make sense. Another myth "borrowed". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saxyroze Posted November 28, 2005 Share Posted November 28, 2005 What I never understood about that story is why Zoroastrian priests gave Jesus presents? The three wise men (magi) practiced Zoroastrianism, which is a completely different religion. What exactly is the basis for claiming that there were 3 " wise men" ? Matthew 2:1 KJV Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megistias Posted November 28, 2005 Share Posted November 28, 2005 Matthew 2:1 KJV Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem Thanks, Saxyrose, but where "3" ? Is it understood that, by ancient decree or Zoroastrian collective bargaining agreement, wise men could only travelled in 3's ? Now I'm wondering what a group of traveling Zoroastrian "wise men" would be called - a Charter ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saxyroze Posted November 28, 2005 Share Posted November 28, 2005 Matthew 2:1 KJV Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem Thanks, Saxyrose, but where "3" ? Is it understood that, by ancient decree or Zoroastrian collective bargaining agreement, wise men could only travelled in 3's ? Now I'm wondering what a group of traveling Zoroastrian "wise men" would be called - a Charter ? You know what, I just put in three because that’s what had been drilled into my brain. Remember little Sunday School productions of Jesus’ birth put on every Christmas? Every year we always had three wise men. Where’s the biblical basis of “3”? Honestly, I don’t know and doubt there really is one. My guess is since only three gifts were reported (gold, frankincense, and myrrh) to of been given, it’s probably been asumed that there were only three wise men. But that’s my guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanInPA Posted November 28, 2005 Share Posted November 28, 2005 Jesus is the sun. The three magi are the three stars in Orion's belt which rise from the east after the sun sets in the west and cross the sky "looking for" him (the sun). MATTHEW 2 THE VISIT OF THE MAGI After Jesus [the Sun] was born in Bethlehem [literally "house of bread". The zodiac house of Virgo. Thus "After the sun has moved out of Virgo"] in Judea during the time of King Herod [during the night] , Magi from the east [the three stars in the belt of Orion which rise in the east] came to Jerusalem [the starry night sky] and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? [where is the Sun?] We saw his star [the Sun's "star" is the bright planet Venus, which is always seen near the Sun] when it rose in the east [the Sun and its star always rise in the east] and have come to worship him." [since Jesus is a personification of the Sun this shows the whole religion was originally about Sun worship.] When King Herod [night] heard this he was disturbed, [night is worried there is a Sun that will rise (be born) and conquer him.] and all Jerusalem with him. When he had called together all the people's chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Christ [the Sun] was to be born. From here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megistias Posted November 28, 2005 Share Posted November 28, 2005 Jesus is the sun. The three magi are the three stars in Orion's belt which rise from the east after the sun sets in the west and cross the sky "looking for" him (the sun). Interesting. But I wonder, was Orion picked just to fit with some preconceived notion of how many Magi may have been involved ? Why just the belt, why not as many stars as make up the constellation Orion ? Biblically, we only have plural - so more than 1 Magi, but whatever gifts they brought would be carried by camels and such and no one-to-one relationship between Magi and gifts is evident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanInPA Posted November 29, 2005 Share Posted November 29, 2005 Interesting. But I wonder, was Orion picked just to fit with some preconceived notion of how many Magi may have been involved ? Why just the belt, why not as many stars as make up the constellation Orion ? Biblically, we only have plural - so more than 1 Magi, but whatever gifts they brought would be carried by camels and such and no one-to-one relationship between Magi and gifts is evident. I'm certainly not an expert, but it seems to me that the three stars of Orion's belt were used because they follow the path of the sun, seeming to "follow" or "look for" the "savior" i.e. the "light that conquers darkness". The Sun, giver of light, warmth and life. For more informatinon check out the entire site: Solar Mythology and the Bible I think that many religions originally came from astronomical "secret societies" who understood the seasonal procession, and the "initiated" were held in high esteem because they could predict the coming season (when to plant, when to harvest, etc.). This is only my opinion based on what I've read. I could change my view if presented with a better explanation. So far, however, this makes the most sense. And as interesting as this stuff is, christianity is still nothing more than a bunch of BS used to control the masses (sheeple). Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted November 29, 2005 Share Posted November 29, 2005 The three gifts=three wise guys theory might have merit, and so might the astological view, I don't know. I do know that the same people who gave us our modern definative Bible--- the Catholic Church--- also gave the Magi names. I can't remember off hand what those names were, but yup... there were three of 'em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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