RintrahRoars Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 I've been a closet nonbeliever for a few years now and have never really had to explain to Christians why I lost faith. Of course I've simulated scenarios in my head many times of what I would say, but it seems like most explanations would lead to arguments rather than understanding (one of the problems being that they don't want to understand). One explanation that I've thought of is saying that Christianity was not satisfactory. If they ask what I mean by that I elaborate it into 1. it's spiritually unsatisfactory, and 2. it's intellectually unsatisfactory. I like this because rather than declaring Christianity objectively wrong (which will piss them off) it makes it about my own subjective decision, leaving little space for them to attack you. If Christianity is spiritually and intellectually satisfying for them, great. I actually got this idea from William Lane Craig If you're trying to deconvert them then of course this isn't the best strategy, but it does seem good for peace making. If I was explaining to a non-Christian I could get away with any sort of explanation - such as my exploration of literal criticism of the Bible leading to conclude that the Bible is the product of man - and it may lead to further interesting and meaningful discussions. But with Christians... I feel like I need to be more cautious. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Sounds great- until they throw "you weren't doing it right/you need to try my church" at you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 I suspect the very existance of apostates is a threat to their belief system. If so, then it doesn't really matter why you discarded it. They'll still likely consider you with great suspicion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeCoastie Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 I think your problem is that the reasons you left are far too complex and numerous to give in a nice quick elevator pitch. I know I could talk for hours on why I lost faith. I usually sum it up to me learning more about the world, religion, and science. Sounds great- until they throw "you weren't doing it right/you need to try my church" at you. That often is a follow up. When they ask which sect I was with, I never answer. I just say I was a Christian. I believed Christ died for my sins period. They have no business in telling me that I was doing it wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted May 25, 2012 Super Moderator Share Posted May 25, 2012 First, no believer really cares about your reasons for leaving their faith; they just want you to 'come to your senses' and return to validating their own beliefs. They will find no reason acceptable. By way of explanation I might just say, "I could just as easily ask why you are not a Muslim. Our reasons are probably very similar." 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted May 25, 2012 Moderator Share Posted May 25, 2012 My answer is very short now when I do get asked (as i did the other day) Here is what I say: 1. I do not believe that the bible is the spoken word of god. This eliminates ALL the arguments they want to have about the bible, fallin' man... etc... 2. I do not see any evidence for god. None. This normally stops the discussion. they cannot even discuss 'jesus coming back' to build a new earth because i already told them in the first sentance that I do not believe the bible is the word of god. good luck my friend!! It's not easy.................... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exevolt Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Best way is just to inform them you no longer believe. Why do you no longer believe? Because to you the religion is not truth. Simple as that. To a child they believe santa is real. Adults do not believe santa is real. You know why? Because to the adult santa isn't truth. I've never understood why christians couldn't understand what non-belief was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 My answer is very short now when I do get asked (as i did the other day) Here is what I say: 1. I do not believe that the bible is the spoken word of god. This eliminates ALL the arguments they want to have about the bible, fallin' man... etc... 2. I do not see any evidence for god. None. This normally stops the discussion. they cannot even discuss 'jesus coming back' to build a new earth because i already told them in the first sentance that I do not believe the bible is the word of god. good luck my friend!! It's not easy.................... When u tell em u see no evidence for god, what do you say when they come back with " look at the stars, the you-nee-verse, how did that all juz hapeen"? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riddick Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 When u tell em u see no evidence for god, what do you say when they come back with " look at the stars, the you-nee-verse, how did that all juz hapeen"? Just come back with the old, "Cause i don't know how the Stars and universe came into existence, that's not evidence that some God created it." That's just an argument of ignorance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurari Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 I'm having this exact discussion with someone right now. I told her about all the studying I did and she's baffled that I could be so learned in Christianity and that I lost my faith rather than strengthened it. It's a civil discussion, so I don't mind having it. One thing she's doing and Christians will do a LOT is do a "topic slide." Still the same general topic, but they ignore responses/questions and move on to a different section. Like for example, she tried to tell me that Jesus is the way to the truth, and when I reminded her that I specifically went looking to Jesus for the truth and lost my faith, she started talking about Near Death Experiences. So, it won't get anywhere. These conversations never do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 I think it's fun to just tell them that religion is a delusion and borderline mental illness. You can point out to them that sane people don't have invisible friends, hear voices in their heads or talk to people who don't exist, nor do sane people believe absurdities like talking animals and plants, zombies coming back to life, etc. Sure they might get pissed, but if they do just tell them you're concerned they have anger management issues and if they don't calm down you may need to report them to social services as a possible danger to themselves and others. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riddick Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 I think it's fun to just tell them that religion is a delusion and borderline mental illness. You can point out to them that sane people don't have invisible friends, hear voices in their heads or talk to people who don't exist, nor do sane people believe absurdities like talking animals and plants, zombies coming back to life, etc. Sure they might get pissed, but if they do just tell them you're concerned they have anger management issues and if they don't calm down you may need to report them to social services as a possible danger to themselves and others. Haha, awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 My answer is very short now when I do get asked (as i did the other day) Here is what I say: 1. I do not believe that the bible is the spoken word of god. This eliminates ALL the arguments they want to have about the bible, fallin' man... etc... 2. I do not see any evidence for god. None. This normally stops the discussion. they cannot even discuss 'jesus coming back' to build a new earth because i already told them in the first sentance that I do not believe the bible is the word of god. good luck my friend!! It's not easy.................... When u tell em u see no evidence for god, what do you say when they come back with " look at the stars, the you-nee-verse, how did that all juz hapeen"? One does not have to provide a response that answers the opponent's question. You could say something like, "It's private" or "I choose not to believe any of that" or when you're really tired of the discussion, "Christianity is total and unequivocal bullshit." Repeat as necessary to any xian poking and prodding. Why do xians think it is any of their business? "Hey, Bob, tell you what, you tell me how many times a day you give it to the misses there and I will share my deeply personal religious beliefs, ok?" Xians assume that a deeply emotional thing like religion is public record. It's not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherJosh Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 One thing she's doing and Christians will do a LOT is do a "topic slide." Still the same general topic, but they ignore responses/questions and move on to a different section. Like for example, she tried to tell me that Jesus is the way to the truth, and when I reminded her that I specifically went looking to Jesus for the truth and lost my faith, she started talking about Near Death Experiences. Since you are having a genial discussion, I wouldn't recommend this approach. But when I've found myself in a hostile, or unfriendly discussion like this, I've found the best approach is to find one single statement or "fact" they state and zero in on it. A common tactic among the religious (especially apologists) is to just throw so much BS out there it's nearly impossible to argue. Focusing on one single thing will force the conversation to focus on one topic, and one that you can drill into them until they throw in the towel. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 (Please excuse some vile language) I personally would only do this as a last resort; it would be highly offensive to some folks. Show 'em pics of a Nazi rally, ask 'em to note the glazed zombie look on many of the faces. Show 'em pics of a mega church with some hugely popular preacher in the pulpit, ask 'em to note the same glazed zombie look. Now ask 'em if they know what "cunt-struck" means. Casey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurari Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 I'll add one more thing here: True believers cannot and will not accept what you tell them about your loss of faith. Only those who are questioning themselves will take you at your word. To accept that you did not find Christianity stimulating, moving, truthful, guiding, or desirable is to admit that the religion and God has faults and failures. As we all know, Christianity isn't set up for a scenario where God and Jesus failed to come to a sincere believer. It HAS to be your fault. You must have misunderstood signs given to you. You had to have been mislead by Satan. You had to have not been trying hard enough. You have to be deliberately denying God since God is real. It's to accept that you are being genuine about why you lost faith is to admit that Christianity isn't always true or The Way, and God is a failure. So, you will never be able to explain things plainly enough to get your point across. You will probably find some interesting material to post in this forum though. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToonForever Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 First, no believer really cares about your reasons for leaving their faith; they just want you to 'come to your senses' and return to validating their own beliefs. They will find no reason acceptable. By way of explanation I might just say, "I could just as easily ask why you are not a Muslim. Our reasons are probably very similar." So. Fucking. True. A request for an explanation is a search for an opening, a chink in the armor, a rabbit trail of scripture to run you down. They're looking for the "a-ha," that one obvious little turning point where you turned away from the path - proof that it's not Christianity with the problem, but you. I now look at such requests for an explanation as an opportunity to anti-proselytize. For the first six months or so, I was sure I didn't want to deconvert anyone, just live my own life. That's no longer the case. Exclusionary religious thought, particularly of the Abrahamic sort, are a disease. They hold humanity back. Anything I can do to lessen that, however little, would be a step forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 I can hardly envision a development that would make me think any of them were entitled to an explanation. The only exception might be my parents, and they would never understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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