Well, I'm Actually Still In Ministry...

[inorbit]

That's why I'm still "in the closet" and so anonymous about this online. I have thought about coming out, as I have a semi-popular blog. But the internet is generally not the place for rational, healthy discussion or honesty. There are sanctuaries (ironic word choice) though, like this place. I've been lurking here for a while as I've been sorting all this out in my head and my heart. I'm at the point now where merely listening isn't enough anymore. I need to get this off my chest. I need to bounce idea, concerns, and confusions off others. I need feedback, advice, encouragement, answers.

 



There is one Christian friend I've been able to talk with about this. This friend is amazing and you guys would love this person. They're a former atheist themselves and naturally very rational and skeptical... and totally non-judgmental. They were the one person I knew i could tell without having all the usual cliches, pat answers, arguments, and rejection/judgment thrown back in my face. They admitted it, too. They said, "Yeah, if this gets out you know what they're going to say. And that's not what you need to hear right now." I felt loved, respected, listened to, and challenged in a healthy way.

Sad that I only know one Christian friend like that. The rest would be clueless and say/do all the things they really should never say to someone like me. Like us. (*sigh* So great to not be alone in this here)



 

I still live with Christians, serious Christians. The kind who "hear from God" about every detail of their life and agonize over whether they "heard him" correctly, who are in ministry like myself, who have been to bible school, who speak in tongues and won't watch most R rated movies, and who are clueless about the opposite sex. They come from sheltered, fundamentalist, evangelical Christian homes. I believe they were homeschooled. They have not had much interaction with the secular world, even as adults. They are good people, but I am almost positive they would want me to move immediately if they found out. At the very least, they would try to confront me and proselytize me. Ugh. So, I pretend for now.

I also am still in ministry, as I've said. I've been a part of a major ministry organization for the past 6 years. If I told you which one, you'd die laughing. I went to bible college and so now here I am. I still enjoy the work and the people, but there is a growing rift. And even in such a "spiritual" ministry as this one, it's amazing how much you actually can have normal, healthy interactions with others without God being brought up terribly much. That helps.



 

But, there are times when the topic gets deep or unavoidable. These are generally one-on-one encounters, or in very small groups. It is usually the other person confiding in some spiritual struggle they are having. It generally has to do with them not being sure what they think God wants them to do. I try not to cringe. I give advice that seems to me to be based on a universal sense of wisdom, rather than on "God." They interpret this how they want, through their filter of "God speaking to them." Whatever. Hopefully, it helps them make the right decision.

Whenever there is group prayer for someone, I often try to find a way to wiggle out of it. I will suddenly have to go to the bathroom, or go get something in another room, or take a pretend phone call. I trade one hypocrisy to avoid another. Snort. When I can't get away, I just keep my eyes closed, or stare at the floor, and don't participate. I endure.

 

Thankfully, I have a real job, too. This has allowed me to make good non-Christian friends. In fact, the majority of my best friends in this city now have nothing to do with the ministry I moved here to join. It's been wonderful to get to enjoy other people for the first time without feeling guilty about it, or burdened with an ulterior motive of "saving their soul." I can just enjoy them and love them, no strings and no agenda. Ironically, I could never do that as a Christian.

 

So, why the shift? Why am I leaving? It's not a matter of theology, as is the most popular trend I've noticed in other ex-Christians. I totally respect that and get where they're coming from, but that wasn't what did it for me. No, for me it was not the ethereal questioning of God's character/motives, or even of his track record. No, for me it was about the evidence… or, rather, the LACK of evidence-- not to mention all the contradictory evidence. My philosophy/theology was pretty solid. I didn't wrestle with the problem of evil; I wrestled with the with the contradictions, with the science. Everything from biology to psychology. It all points out huge gaping holes that Christianity does its damnedest (intentional word choice) to cover up, explain away, or ignore.

 

Remember, I have been trained for ministry. A large part of this training centered around how to relate to other cultures, how to effectively communicate, how to learn to see the world from the eyes of someone who comes from a very different place than you do. You learn how to "read" a culture and how to fit in. All I did was use those tools and turn them against myself, my own culture, my own religion. Oh snap.

At that point, it fell apart. For the first time, I truly considered nothing "sacred." That is, nothing was off limits. I tested everything. And most (almost all) didn't hold water. I could no longer say with confidence that I "knew the truth." It's been liberating. I don't have to be right. I can be honest. It's much better. I don't have to have all the answers. Not being so convinced has also made me way more open minded, more compassionate, more accepting. I no longer believe the Bible to be infallible. I can't. It just doesn't add up. And if you take that away, the only thing left is experience. Experience is subjective and non-communicable. So…

 

Anyway, I wouldn't say I'm an atheist. But I am certainly not a mainstream evangelical anymore. I just serve with a mainstream evangelical ministry. Honestly, I'm not sure how to classify myself. I cannot wrap up this story, because it's constantly evolving as I'm learning new things, meeting new people, having new experiences. And it's partly like going through stages of grief. It's partly like losing your mind. There is still residual doubt, and certainly confusion. I am so done with religion, though. Ugh.

 

Well, that's off my chest. Hi, everyone!

[Legion]

Welcome to ex-C Inorbit. I like your Sisyphus avatar.

 

You say you're done with religion, but it seems to me that you are immersed in it by being so involved with ministry. It seems to me that you may be in a rough spot.

 

I can't help but think of one thing here, and that is the moment before our death. I've read in psychology that people tend to die with a sense of integrity or despair. My hope for you is that you will find yourself free of this hypocrisy and therefore enable yourself to one day die with a sense of integrity, because that seems to me to be your essence.

[mcdaddy]

Hey!! I'll respond later in more detail, but for now let me just give you a great big welcome and a bro-hug (you are a guy right?). It's hard realizing it's all basically bull droppings- but in the end it's extremely liberating. Because you don't have to fit square pegs into round holes anymore. Things are as they are. Good luck as you try to disengage from the ministry.

[Darklady]

it takes time, for me one really helpful thing I did was move away from where I had been in ministry, (I had to move for work) once i moved I just never went back to a church...... but seriously it took years to move from being a' born again, spirit filled' etc christian, through stages of theism to where I am now, a atheist. Just keep reading and talking to normal people..... you will get there

[buffettphan]

Welcome to Ex-C! IMO, you've come to the best place on the net for feedback, advice, encouragement, answers, and bouncing ideas around. Many of us often refer to this place as our sanctuary and many of us live with/are married to christians -- so we know where you're coming from in that regard too! Peace and best wishes as you fully work your way out of christinsanity!

[Positivist]

Welcome, inorbit! Well, thank goodness you have a day job!!! Soooo many folks on here are in ministry and have nothing else to fall back on for work, which is awkward for them, to say the least!

 

Glad you signed up and joined us. We have a pretty good group of folks here and I look forward to hearing more from you!!

 

Oh, and for me it was the lack of evidence as well. Why does my life and the world unfold just as if God does not exist? Well. Nothing like an answer to that question!

 

Welcome, and make yourself at home!

[mcdaddy]

Welcome, inorbit! Well, thank goodness you have a day job!!! Soooo many folks on here are in ministry and have nothing else to fall back on for work, which is awkward for them, to say the least!

 

Glad you signed up and joined us. We have a pretty good group of folks here and I look forward to hearing more from you!!

 

Oh, and for me it was the lack of evidence as well. Why does my life and the world unfold just as if God does not exist? Well. Nothing like an answer to that question!

 

Welcome, and make yourself at home!

 

"pretty good", Pos?

 

Well I know I'm awesome. Not 100% sure about everyone else though.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Hello Inorbit, I very much appreciate your post, and second those above in welcoming you here. There have been a lot of new members, it seems to me, recently. I like your reasons for reevaluating your faith.

 

I used to have all Christian roommates, etc. As a gay person I was pretty scared about letting them know. Eventually I did to my best friend among them. It turned out later that two others were also closeted gay! Anyway, the reason I mention it is because from what you say you are going through a lot of cognitive dissonance right now (as I did at the time I refer to). I know how tough that is. Since you have a real job and are making new friends, and you sound relatively young, I wonder if you can't either be open with those you live with or else get into the place of not having cognitive dissonance. I'm not sure why you have to continue with the ministry if it's not your main job. I do have to say that I second Legion's very humane response.

 

I am also intrigued about your one good Christian friend who used to be an atheist. Why did that person become Christian, and what sort of Christian doctrinally is s/he?

 

Hope to hear more from you on this site!

[Overcame Faith]

Hi, inorbit, and welcome to ExC. You might be surprised to know that there are a fair number of people who are actively in the ministry who have come to understand that Christianity is not the truth. Some have become members here. From what I have read on the subject, it is especially difficult for the active minister to make the move away from the religion and that is for a large number of reasons. This all seems to be new to you. My advice for the immediate future is maybe you should maintain the status quo for now until you have had time to come to terms with what you have learned and then make decisions about what you do with the ministry of which you are a part. Just don't lead people astray (meaning deeper into the religion) which, from what I read, you are being careful not to do - good for you.

[Spectrox]

Hi Inorbit - glad you finally made it back to Earth. It's tough letting go and re-evaluating everything. Truth hurts sometimes. For some people, life as an ex-christian isn't better than life as a christian. Everyone's situation is different. But to me it's like comparing a drunk man with a sober man.

 

Life as an ex-christian is better for me - because now I don't have to worry about my friends and family (who I thought would be going to Hell). I didn't have to believe that God was sexist and homophobic. And I could stop lying to myself about everything in the Bible that I just knew made no sense.

 

Keep asking the tough questions of yourself - What do I really believe? Why do I believe it? What evidence is there that my beliefs are true? Is this Biblical statement necessarily morally correct?

 

Be honest and you won't go far wrong.

[marmot]

Hello, inorbit. I am one of the individuals mentioned that still works at a Christian workplace (a school). I think the most important thing is that you identify a plan of action/timeline for extricating yourself from that environment. I felt very alone at work for many months while I was questioning so I really empathize with you there.

 

I try to do the same strategies about giving people "universal advice" and they can interpret it any way they would like. I am a teacher so I often phrase things as "many Christians believe.." rather than saying I believe.

 

I enjoyed your story and I think I have a lot in common (it was the scientific evidence and the textual criticism that led me to marginalize and finally discard Christianity).

 

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions or want to vent.

[Positivist]

We have a pretty good group of folks here and I look forward to hearing more from you!!

"pretty good", Pos?

Well I know I'm awesome. Not 100% sure about everyone else though.

LOL! No, just speaking for myself being "pretty good". You are pretty terrific!

[YellowJacket]

Inorbit, have you watched Evid3nce youtube series? I think he came to his logic in much the same path you did. Check it out - long but really well done.

[Guest Xtech]

Just want to say welcome and I hope the transitions in your life will go as smoothly as possible. I know several people who have moved down the same path you are on. One became a Unitarian minister, one a teacher, one an IT guy. Sales? There are probably other talents you have, time to explore them and get away from your 'old' life.

 

All the best to you.

[merck]

Anyway, I wouldn't say I'm an atheist. But I am certainly not a mainstream evangelical anymore. I just serve with a mainstream evangelical ministry. Honestly, I'm not sure how to classify myself. I cannot wrap up this story, because it's constantly evolving as I'm learning new things, meeting new people, having new experiences. And it's partly like going through stages of grief. It's partly like losing your mind. There is still residual doubt, and certainly confusion. I am so done with religion, though. Ugh.

 

I can relate to this. I used to be pretty die-hard evangelical and it was very hard letting go of all those feelings and that mind set. It definitely is like going through grief. I remember the first time I realized that the God and religion I had always believed was a lie. It was nearly 4AM before I could fall asleep and when I finally did I just experienced horrible night terrors. It does get better though! I can honestly say I have never been happier with the way my life is. No more fear and guilt over thought crimes or reading about astrophysics or evolution! And this is a great place to express doubts, vent, or just read about others' experiences. Welcome!

[Guest SpicyDance]

Welcome! I'm glad to know there are those out there even in leadership in christianity that have seen reality. Good luck on your journey!

[Thackerie]

... I am also intrigued about your one good Christian friend who used to be an atheist. Why did that person become Christian, and what sort of Christian doctrinally is s/he?

 

Hope to hear more from you on this site!

 

I, too, would like to know more about this person's alleged conversion.

 

Have to admit, I'm extremely suspicious of christians claiming to have been former atheists. I suppose they might be referring to a time in their lives before they embraced christianity full tilt, when god and all that stuff wasn't a part of their everyday thinking. I guess, in looking back on it, they could construe their former selves as atheistic. But, to my way of thinking, they were only previously atheists in the same sense that we are all atheists at birth — i.e., we all start out as a clean slate until we're indoctrinated, one way or another, into a belief.

 

I doubt if the "former atheist" was an atheist who had come to that position from education and research. It took a lot of hard work on my part to arrive at my position. (I'm proud of how far I've come, so I do get offended by faux former atheists trying to claim street creds they never earned.)

 

However, my point is, after studying the bible and the history of christianity, I could never be convinced to go back to believing unless I discovered some extraordinary (and I do mean EXTRAORDINARY!) new evidence. If your friend was ever really an atheist because of rational/skeptical thinking and honest research, neither could s/he.

 

So, yeah, I would like to know what persuades a "rational" atheist to become a christian. But, as to what persuades a mere apathetist to eventually succumb to the christian culture that pervades our lives, I'm not really all that interested; I wouldn't expect such a person to have a firm grasp on rationality.

[mcdaddy]

... I am also intrigued about your one good Christian friend who used to be an atheist. Why did that person become Christian, and what sort of Christian doctrinally is s/he?

 

Hope to hear more from you on this site!

 

I, too, would like to know more about this person's alleged conversion.

 

Have to admit, I'm extremely suspicious of christians claiming to have been former atheists. I suppose they might be referring to a time in their lives before they embraced christianity full tilt, when god and all that stuff wasn't a part of their everyday thinking. I guess, in looking back on it, they could construe their former selves as atheistic. But, to my way of thinking, they were only previously atheists in the same sense that we are all atheists at birth — i.e., we all start out as a clean slate until we're indoctrinated, one way or another, into a belief.

 

I doubt if the "former atheist" was an atheist who had come to that position from education and research. It took a lot of hard work on my part to arrive at my position. (I'm proud of how far I've come, so I do get offended by faux former atheists trying to claim street creds they never earned.)

 

However, my point is, after studying the bible and the history of christianity, I could never be convinced to go back to believing unless I discovered some extraordinary (and I do mean EXTRAORDINARY!) new evidence. If your friend was ever really an atheist because of rational/skeptical thinking and honest research, neither could s/he.

 

So, yeah, I would like to know what persuades a "rational" atheist to become a christian. But, as to what persuades a mere apathetist to eventually succumb to the christian culture that pervades our lives, I'm not really all that interested; I wouldn't expect such a person to have a firm grasp on rationality.

 

This x 1000

[Adam5]

Welcome to the forum, inorbit. A survey of beliefs of the clergy in the UK showed that many of those in ministry disbelieve many core doctrines such as the virgin birth and miracles. So I think you are far from alone in having serious doubts. Good luck.

[Adam5]

I read in the newspaper yesterday about a senior vicar who has struggled with many of the traditions of the church, and could not accept a literal reading of the Bible.

 

He says people dont walk on water or rise from the dead. They dont ascend on clouds. funny

 

His message is one of walking with God and God's love. This more moderate Christianity is perhaps a world away from the evangelical world. But is imo certainly a saner version of it.

 

edit: I was in the anglican church but have left/ am leaving it. Even this watered down version is not my cup of tea.

[2Honest]

Welcome, inorbit! Wow, I can relate to so much of your story. My husband (jblueep) and I were believers of the "spirit filled" variety for 25 years. We were in ministry roles when we left the church and our faith. This site was the only outlet we had to help us get through that process. The people here were amazing and so supportive to us. I hope we can be that for you, as well. There's no pressure here to come to any conclusion or to agree with one belief or another. I have found that very refreshing. I wanted to make some comments to specific things you wrote:

 

 

But, there are times when the topic gets deep or unavoidable. These are generally one-on-one encounters, or in very small groups. It is usually the other person confiding in some spiritual struggle they are having. It generally has to do with them not being sure what they think God wants them to do. I try not to cringe. I give advice that seems to me to be based on a universal sense of wisdom, rather than on "God." They interpret this how they want, through their filter of "God speaking to them." Whatever. Hopefully, it helps them make the right decision.

Whenever there is group prayer for someone, I often try to find a way to wiggle out of it. I will suddenly have to go to the bathroom, or go get something in another room, or take a pretend phone call. I trade one hypocrisy to avoid another. Snort. When I can't get away, I just keep my eyes closed, or stare at the floor, and don't participate. I endure.

 

That was SO difficult for me, too. We were leading 2 groups while deconverting. I'd have to try to compose myself before walking into that room full of people who were expecting me to be that spiritual person who knew what to say and how to pray for them. And yeah, the one on one conversations were awful...I would literally hide in the bathroom to avoid people approaching me before/after the service. I just didn't know what to say and I was so terrible at faking it. I felt like I was walking around with a big flashing sign on my forehead "UNBELIEVER!".

 

Don't you find it so frustrating that there's no room for doubting and questioning? I mean, these are people who are supposed to be your friends. But I knew (as I'm sure you know) that if I walked into one of those groups and told them about all my doubts and questions, they'd tell me to just have faith, or that I was being deceived and would want to pray for me. There's no way for them to really understand what you're going through. That was one of the most frustrating parts for me. I'm really glad you do at least have one christian friend who gets it. I gotta say, I'm curious about his transition from atheism to Christianity, though!

 

No, for me it was about the evidence… or, rather, the LACK of evidence-- not to mention all the contradictory evidence. My philosophy/theology was pretty solid. I didn't wrestle with the problem of evil; I wrestled with the with the contradictions, with the science. Everything from biology to psychology. It all points out huge gaping holes that Christianity does its damnedest (intentional word choice) to cover up, explain away, or ignore.

 

Yes, same here! We believed that the miracles in the NT were supposed to be happening for believers today...that Christians should be doing all that Jesus did and greater things (as the scripture says). In fact one of our groups was all about that. We would get together and pray for each other and expect healing and miracles to happen. It was our goal to take this group out and pray for people in public places. (We did that once at Starbuck's, shockingly the guy's MS was not healed!) I've had chronic health issues for 15 years and we fully believed I'd be healed. But it just never happened. Believing for my healing despite all evidence was what finally drove me over the edge. It nearly took my sanity. I finally had to face reality. I have some other posts about that in the forum and on my blog if you want to check them out. You can go on my profile page and click "topics" or "blog posts" to read them.

 

At that point, it fell apart. For the first time, I truly considered nothing "sacred." That is, nothing was off limits. I tested everything. And most (almost all) didn't hold water. I could no longer say with confidence that I "knew the truth." It's been liberating. I don't have to be right. I can be honest. It's much better. I don't have to have all the answers. Not being so convinced has also made me way more open minded, more compassionate, more accepting. I no longer believe the Bible to be infallible. I can't. It just doesn't add up. And if you take that away, the only thing left is experience. Experience is subjective and non-communicable.

 

Again, same here. Once I considered for a moment that the whole thing wasn't true, it crumbled right before my eyes. It was kind of scary, but mostly it was a relief! That was 7 months ago for me and life has definitely been better since I've "seen the light": I'm sure the same is true for you.

 

One organization you might want to check out is The Clergy Project. I'm not sure what type of "position" you hold, but they offer support to people in full-time ministry who are still stuck there. The same people also run Recovering from Religion which has support groups all over the country. The groups are for people who've left or are in the process of leaving Christianity. If you're interested you can check their site to see if there are any groups in your area.

 

Good luck on your journey. Please stick around and keep us updated on how you're doing. And let us know how we can help!

[Zaphod]

Welcome, Inorbit. Sounds like you're in for a rough ride, but it's great that you have a day job. You might want to check out the website of Seth Andrews, TheThinkingAtheist.com . Seth does a weekly podcast, usually 60-90 minutes long, and earlier this year he devoted the show to members of the clergy who are closeted atheists. There was a chat with at least one active pastor that I can recall who has lost the faith and hasn't told her congregation, and I think he talked to a former pastor as well. You're not alone, and you're not the first non-believer to feel trapped in a ministerial role. Good luck to you, and we are here for you.

[inorbit]

Thanks for the warm welcome, everyone. My apologies for my delayed reply. I've been working overtime as we've been shorthanded at work. It's stressful and tiring, but the money is really needed right now (unexpected bills and expenses).

 

Speaking of my day job, I am definitely lucky to have it. For the most part, it's enjoyable and even though the pay isn't very high, it does pay the bills. I've been slowly cutting back more and more in my ministry role as I've been picking up more hours at work, too. What's funny is that I've "come out" to a few of my coworkers and they've been very supportive and understanding, more so than I would expect from my coworkers in ministry.

 

I've been seriously contemplating giving my two weeks notice at the ministry, but have held back back for two reasons: First, I really enjoy the work that I do that, aside from the context. Second, the immediate group that I work with is rather level-headed, fun-loving, and very kind. I enjoy hanging out with people who are genuinely kind, as it can be contagious. Christianity aside, I still strongly desire to be a "good person"-- just for very different reasons.

 

As for the little diversion I seem to have missed about my friend, well... It would be up to them to really explain themselves, I suppose. I will say I had to smirk at the accusations that they must not have been "real atheists," when so many Christians would accuse us of never being "real Christians." It just struck me as a humorous irony. I know my friend very well, and I can tell you they definitely were. They converted after having a very unexpected, uninvited spiritual experience. And due to the very nature of their conversion and their background, they are not your typical "shove the Bible down your throat" evangelist types. They do not believe the Bible is infallible, as well as silently rejecting other "foundational" aspects of Christianity. But, I really don't want this whole thread to be diverted by their testimony/beliefs. It would be awkward for me to have to come to the defense of the honor of a believing friend in this context. Let's just drop the matter.

 

 

I will say, the biggest thing I've been wrestling with has been the overwhelming fear of death. I think about how short and meaningless life is every day. I'm not suicidal. It's quite the opposite. I'm afraid of the end. We have no idea what's next, and what's the point in even being born? Life is so short, so full of pain, and then we die. Those we love die and leave us to die. And so on. I cannot be the only one who wrestles with this during deconversion. My whole entire worldview, things I assumed were solid under my feet, it's all dissolving before my eyes and I am struggling to find my footing. Sometimes I feel like I'm going crazy. Normal?

[Ouroboros]

inorbit,

 

Did you see the recent threads about clergy losing faith? Have you heard about the Clergy Project? If you haven't, it's a fairly new organization focused on helping clergy transition after their de-conversion.

[mcdaddy]

Thanks for the warm welcome, everyone. My apologies for my delayed reply. I've been working overtime as we've been shorthanded at work. It's stressful and tiring, but the money is really needed right now (unexpected bills and expenses).

 

Speaking of my day job, I am definitely lucky to have it. For the most part, it's enjoyable and even though the pay isn't very high, it does pay the bills. I've been slowly cutting back more and more in my ministry role as I've been picking up more hours at work, too. What's funny is that I've "come out" to a few of my coworkers and they've been very supportive and understanding, more so than I would expect from my coworkers in ministry.

 

I've been seriously contemplating giving my two weeks notice at the ministry, but have held back back for two reasons: First, I really enjoy the work that I do that, aside from the context. Second, the immediate group that I work with is rather level-headed, fun-loving, and very kind. I enjoy hanging out with people who are genuinely kind, as it can be contagious. Christianity aside, I still strongly desire to be a "good person"-- just for very different reasons.

 

As for the little diversion I seem to have missed about my friend, well... It would be up to them to really explain themselves, I suppose. I will say I had to smirk at the accusations that they must not have been "real atheists," when so many Christians would accuse us of never being "real Christians." It just struck me as a humorous irony. I know my friend very well, and I can tell you they definitely were. They converted after having a very unexpected, uninvited spiritual experience. And due to the very nature of their conversion and their background, they are not your typical "shove the Bible down your throat" evangelist types. They do not believe the Bible is infallible, as well as silently rejecting other "foundational" aspects of Christianity. But, I really don't want this whole thread to be diverted by their testimony/beliefs. It would be awkward for me to have to come to the defense of the honor of a believing friend in this context. Let's just drop the matter.

 

 

I will say, the biggest thing I've been wrestling with has been the overwhelming fear of death. I think about how short and meaningless life is every day. I'm not suicidal. It's quite the opposite. I'm afraid of the end. We have no idea what's next, and what's the point in even being born? Life is so short, so full of pain, and then we die. Those we love die and leave us to die. And so on. I cannot be the only one who wrestles with this during deconversion. My whole entire worldview, things I assumed were solid under my feet, it's all dissolving before my eyes and I am struggling to find my footing. Sometimes I feel like I'm going crazy. Normal?

 

Absolutely normal.

 

Evolution has proven that, as much as many of us hate the idea, we are "just" highly evolved animals. We're the only ones that can contemplate our own death. No other animals give it a second thought- bc they can't. Maybe an ape or something else, but only very vaguely and briefly. Would you tell an animal to be fearful of their death? Do you think they go anywhere when they die? If we're animals, and not "made from dust" by a superman without a cape for some cOsmic purpose, why should it be a y different for us?

 

If it IS different, and our consciousness survives, the overwhelming majority of NDE'ers say it's nothing to be feared, in fact, they're sad that they had to come back. But of course this is all if the experience isnt just an experience locally in the brain, which I think is probably te case.

 

You've been dead before, and you're not sad about that, right? It's just like that. Probably.