Guest questioner4 Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 http://www.therefinersfire.org/evil_bible.htm 4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving." The Refiner's Fire Response: Yep, our God IS tolerant and loving! Why? Because the God of the Bible - the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Joseph - IS THE TRUE CREATOR, while the rest of the "gods" are NOT. He has put up with man's disobedience for THOUSANDS of years, giving us chance after chance after chance. How many chances would YOU give to your wayward kids who insisted on being drug addicts, drunks, sexual deviants, etc., and who consistently told you to get out of their lives because you, as a parent, are a moron who knows nothing? (But, just keep on shelling ou the money, Dad! And give us a free place to live. Other than that, buzz off!) We're not sure what you mean by the statement, "though excluding those in all rival sects". Unless one believes in the shed blood of Yeshua HaMaschiach, they will NOT end up in heaven; simple as that. Questioner4's Response: The statement I highlighted in blue pisses me off the most. How many parents would dream of torturing their kids eternally? I bet most of them wouldn't - except for the really abusive parents! When loving parents discipline their kids, they do so in a correctional manner - not out of spite. Even if your kid did become a drug addict or a drunk, you would not want them to suffer, right? So what does Carmen make of this, huh? Sorry, I guess I used the colour red, not blue. Where do you edit your post? I don't see an edit button anywhere. >color fixed, kL< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 http://www.therefinersfire.org/evil_bible.htm 4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving." The Refiner's Fire Response: Yep, our God IS tolerant and loving! Why? Because the God of the Bible - the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Joseph - IS THE TRUE CREATOR, while the rest of the "gods" are NOT. He has put up with man's disobedience for THOUSANDS of years, giving us chance after chance after chance. How many chances would YOU give to your wayward kids who insisted on being drug addicts, drunks, sexual deviants, etc., and who consistently told you to get out of their lives because you, as a parent, are a moron who knows nothing? (But, just keep on shelling ou the money, Dad! And give us a free place to live. Other than that, buzz off!) We're not sure what you mean by the statement, "though excluding those in all rival sects". Unless one believes in the shed blood of Yeshua HaMaschiach, they will NOT end up in heaven; simple as that. Questioner4's Response: The statement I highlighted in blue pisses me off the most. How many parents would dream of torturing their kids eternally? I bet most of them wouldn't - except for the really abusive parents! When loving parents discipline their kids, they do so in a correctional manner - not out of spite. Even if your kid did become a drug addict or a drunk, you would not want them to suffer, right? So what does Carmen make of this, huh? Sorry, I guess I used the colour red, not blue. Where do you edit your post? I don't see an edit button anywhere. I have heard that arguement before. They don't even know thier own history. During the time of the civil war it was the Christians who strongly supported slavery. It was the terrible Humanists and Athiests who strongly opposed it. Their religion is responsible for some of the most heinous acts in history yet they insist on defending it, calling people who don't beleive in their religion pretty much vile scum. When in fact their lagacy (which they have convienently rewritten) supports human evil. PS. You have to have enough posts to get the edit feature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dianka Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 http://www.therefinersfire.org/evil_bible.htm 4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving." The Refiner's Fire Response: Yep, our God IS tolerant and loving! Why? Because the God of the Bible - the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Joseph - IS THE TRUE CREATOR, while the rest of the "gods" are NOT. He has put up with man's disobedience for THOUSANDS of years, giving us chance after chance after chance. How many chances would YOU give to your wayward kids who insisted on being drug addicts, drunks, sexual deviants, etc., and who consistently told you to get out of their lives because you, as a parent, are a moron who knows nothing? (But, just keep on shelling ou the money, Dad! And give us a free place to live. Other than that, buzz off!) We're not sure what you mean by the statement, "though excluding those in all rival sects". Unless one believes in the shed blood of Yeshua HaMaschiach, they will NOT end up in heaven; simple as that. Questioner4's Response: The statement I highlighted in blue pisses me off the most. How many parents would dream of torturing their kids eternally? I bet most of them wouldn't - except for the really abusive parents! When loving parents discipline their kids, they do so in a correctional manner - not out of spite. Even if your kid did become a drug addict or a drunk, you would not want them to suffer, right? So what does Carmen make of this, huh? Sorry, I guess I used the colour red, not blue. Where do you edit your post? I don't see an edit button anywhere. >color fixed, kL< You know what I don't understand is that the bible people say that no one deserves Hell, and we should all be saved, and we are all Gods children and don't eat lobster and lalalalalalalala...... And still people go to Hell (according to them bible people, of course). Why not just come out and say to those who are Hell bound that they are going to Hell? I feel the thought that God would condemn one of his children is terrifying to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saviourmachine Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 First there is no way to know if the christian one is the true creator. Neither if his/her nature is essentially right or wrong. Human can already deceive me, how about a far more complex entity dubbed "God". I don't believe in reincarnation so I would object to the assertment that I am disobedient over thousands of years. And because I haven't an inbuilt fear against science and its theories that shake the fundations of fundamental believers, I would see difficulties in examining how far exactly the sin bounded to our specie by a prehistoric Adam would reach. Is the chimpansee also a descendant of the mythical Adam or not? And why do other species suffer from our decission? The hell-worthy Darwin already thought about that. This theory of chance is interesting. What's the probability value of someone's conversion? And is it so, that because there are so many people, sometimes a lucky mutant will go to heaven? What's the deleterious rate? When I will have kids I hope I don't give them mere opportunities to make it right again. I wouldn't let it depend on chances. I would go myself, convince my kid about my love for her/him. I wouldn't send him/her a letter (labelled scripture). And even then. I would make sure its veracity is unquestionable. I would make sure that my forgiving deed comes over very well. I would make sure not to pose pseudoscientific statements. I would make sure to focus on him/her personally, mentioning his/her name a few times for example. I guess that's what I would do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 Isn't it funny that the quote mentions them thinking their religion is tolerant and loving, while their answer is that their God is tolerant and loving... Call me cynical, but I wonder if they bothered to read the damn quote before answering it. Meanwhile, I'd ask them if they really feel that they're the same religion as LDS, Catholics, Lutharians and JW's... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 ...How many chances would YOU give to your wayward kids who insisted on being drug addicts, drunks, sexual deviants, etc., and who consistently told you to get out of their lives because you, as a parent, are a moron who knows nothing?... While Carmen definitely can be nice and kind and charming (after her first appearance on this site we did have some email exchange ), sadly there are still many absurd things she promotes on that site... and the above quote amazes me every time, no matter who posts it where. Such remarks aim at comparing the judeo-christian deity to human parents, but the ones who try to pull that trick forget one thing: It is them who usually claim that their deity is omnipotent. Human parents may well have to do some things to their children they don't like to do, because they are just humans. On the other hand, an omnipotent and omnibenevolent deity would have a gazillion ways to make it clear to us all that it is real and doesn't condone our "sinful ways", instead of letting us all run into our doom after having shown us some far-too-dubious warnings which are just too easily misinterpreted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Gods Fail Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 Why not just come out and say to those who are Hell bound that they are going to Hell? I feel the thought that God would condemn one of his children is terrifying to them. No shit - that's where their "God gives us so many chances" crap falls flat. Would any loving parent torture their child because they disobeyed them? It doesn't matter if god 'gives us chances' - the morality of this idea is completely defunct. It probably stems from the whole sick, ancient idea that children are their father's property, like slaves you can make yourself. And who cares what you do to possessions that don't behave? Stone them to death and then make some new ones. Thanks, but I prefer not to have psychotic 'fathers'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 It's some simple shit to avoid hell. No bible reading or "personal relationships" required. No walking the holiness tightwire. No perseverance or struggles against the flesh. Just say "remember me, Jesus" as you breathe your last. Worked for the dude who was hanging around next to Jesus. It's my plan, for sure. Just in case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 Questioner 4... What did it for me was when I quit reading about the Bible, and started reading the Bible itself; for myself. What it said... not what someone else said it said. Duder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 He has put up with man's disobedience for THOUSANDS of years, giving us chance after chance after chance. How many chances would YOU give to your wayward kids who insisted on being drug addicts, drunks, sexual deviants, etc., and who consistently told you to get out of their lives because you, as a parent, are a moron who knows nothing? (But, just keep on shelling ou the money, Dad! And give us a free place to live. Other than that, buzz off!) We're not sure what you mean by the statement, "though excluding those in all rival sects". Unless one believes in the shed blood of Yeshua HaMaschiach, they will NOT end up in heaven; simple as that. Questioner4's Response: The statement I highlighted in blue pisses me off the most. How many parents would dream of torturing their kids eternally? You don't need help. You have refuted it. The things you highlighted in blue shows how much Carmen is out of touch with reality. Non christians are not evil people who constantly rebel aginst their god and creator. But in order for Carmen to see that, she needs to step out of her christian fantasy world and meet some real people in the real world. But even if Carmen were right about the human condition, eternal torture and and loving god is still totally inconsistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narcissist Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 He has put up with man's disobedience for THOUSANDS of years, giving us chance after chance after chance. How many chances would YOU give to your wayward kids who insisted on being drug addicts, drunks, sexual deviants, etc., and who consistently told you to get out of their lives because you, as a parent, are a moron who knows nothing? You have already refuted it with this... How many parents would dream of torturing their kids eternally? I bet most of them wouldn't - except for the really abusive parents! When loving parents discipline their kids, they do so in a correctional manner - not out of spite. Even if your kid did become a drug addict or a drunk, you would not want them to suffer, right? So what does Carmen make of this, huh? I would add that for a truly loving parent, the door would always be open to their children. Always. No matter how deviant, no matter how disobedient, no matter how wayward or disrespectful, a truly loving parent would never give up on their child. (By the way, I have actually experienced this from my own family, and seen it in others. It wasn't preached from a pulpit and I didn't read it in a book.) And if this sort of love and forgiveness can be practised by apparently sinful, wicked and evil human parents, then how much more so should it be practised by our Everlasting (for whom a thousand years is only a day) and Perfectly Loving God? Given that they want to make it personal, I would return their argument back on them, asking them how many chances THEY would give any wayward kids they may have. See how much unconditional love they themselves would be willing to show... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 When I will have kids I hope I don't give them mere opportunities to make it right again. I wouldn't let it depend on chances. I would go myself, convince my kid about my love for her/him. I wouldn't send him/her a letter (labelled scripture). And even then. I would make sure its veracity is unquestionable. I would make sure that my forgiving deed comes over very well. I would make sure not to pose pseudoscientific statements. I would make sure to focus on him/her personally, mentioning his/her name a few times for example. I guess that's what I would do. Forget letters. Actions speak louder than words. If I had kids, I would treat them lovingly and kindly, never telling them that they are not good enough. I would make sure that they would know that they were always loved, no matter what. It probably stems from the whole sick, ancient idea that children are their father's property, like slaves you can make yourself. And who cares what you do to possessions that don't behave? Stone them to death and then make some new ones. You're probably right there. In ancient times, like when the Bible was written, women and children were seen as property and treated as such (in some cases, worse than property). The Bible only reflects that culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willybilly30 Posted November 26, 2005 Share Posted November 26, 2005 Bible-God is tolerant and loving? Does Carmen even read the damn bible? Oh yes god is tolerant and loving If you do not believe in him, he will burn you in hell That is true love and tolerance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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