Falloutdude Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 I have 3 atheist/agnostic friends. I used to be myself. Now I do not know who or what I am. I know I ache for inner peace and I know I am standing on thin ice with who I am. Due to my obsessive thoughts and anxiety, I experienced things that made me feel like I do now. Like my other issues, this isn't really specifically about those things. My problems arise from deeper theological anxieties. As I have said in the past, I realize now that instead of just not believing in god, I am borderline believer who has no love for the god he believes might exist. A sinner who is offended that who he is needs to be plead forgiveness for no other reason than perfection is all that god can tolerate. Someone who rolled a joint with a page of the bible and vocally denied the holy spirit/did it out loud (I can't remember the exact verse) when I was sure it wasn't true.... I am afraid all of this is true, I feel little righteous conviction against Christianity anymore, and yet I know that it doesn't sit right with me.... Satanism seems my only alternative if belief is my only direction, holding onto the hope that Satan might be the one who is benevolent, but even that is soiled by the idea of eternal damnation as Satan is obviously no the stronger power. Even as I write this I see it as wishful thinking. Now I am just a wreck. I do not have confidence in anything other than that I just want to feel ok and that my mother's love is the only thing keeping me alive. Even as I write this I have tears rolling down my face, thinking about how dismal life feels. I have experienced true unbelief and happiness/freedom, and that just makes this pain the worse, as well as making Christian peace a fake counterfeit for real joy and love. Yet I do not see this as evidence against it, only thinking of all the theological and apologetics which are often internally insidious, despite not making sense outside of their own context and assumptions. My new counselor is nice, but she is a liberal Christian who focuses more on the "we all sin" kind of theology. I see this as a conflict of interests, as I think even she cannot completely commit herself to my happiness. She also seems to empathize with how hard this is for me, since I told her I like both men and women. In the end though, I had to tell her that I could not accept a god who could not accept anyone else, especially someone who was obviously tortured by these ideas and only wants to live his life knowing that he is not going to be penalized for trying to be himself. Someone who is loving and thoughtful, as well as extremely sensitive. I love effeminate, sensitive men and women, and desire those kinds of men and women for my partner, and try to find the good in everyone while trying to help those who seem to need it, even if they don't seem to deserve it. I am extremely uncomfortable with any hard feelings and always try to fix problems between even others; when I think I've done something to offend someone or make them feel bad, I can't feel easy until I feel like I have made it better. The friend I have used to hate me because of a misunderstanding, now we are pretty good friends and she says she loves talking to me more than most people(one of my atheist friends). She is my first female friend who I can honestly say I feel deeper level. I am good friends with 2 of my 3 favorite professors, and am pretty much a favorite of the third. I have been told that I am a rare student who actually thinks about what he has learned and how it's deeper implications. I have literally spoken to my professors of Anthropology and Western Civ (both atheists) for hours on end about politics, philosophy, as well as pretty much anything else you can think of, including futurama. I used to love learning, but in my current state my fear gets to me, and makes me feel like learning more is risking more happiness lost, since I can not think freely if I am wrong. I used to sit and talk for hours with my intellectual friends about politics and science, while enjoying a good toke. This is only part of who I am and I don't want to lose that life to my fear and after a recent experience, I have been sinking back into depression and feeling melancholy, even though I have tried talking rationally about it I still only feel ok right after I have cried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Why the hell do you think it's real and anything other than a man made religion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3DollarBill Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Are you afraid the Greek gods are real and you're in for a smackdown from Zeus if you piss him off? Or what if the muslims are right and trinitarians go to hell? Or what about the great Cthulu from the bottom of the sea? Or what if only atheists get into heaven? Are you afraid of me? Cause I got news for you buddy...I'm God. And I don't take kindly to people who post on internet forums. Zero evidence for any of the above. Zero evidence for biblegod. Now quit worrying about it and enjoy your life. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 You a guy with alot of mental problems, if anything that should be a arguement against any subjective experience you may have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 And wasn't your big mystical experience smoking weed. Weed doesn't always just calm you down, if you find a kind that disagree's with you it can fuck you up mentally particularly if your not in great shape to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falloutdude Posted June 6, 2012 Author Share Posted June 6, 2012 I wish I knew exactly....as near as I can tell it's because of the experiences I had when I was worrying. 'Answered' "if you're there" things, anxious thoughts and experiences which I had during the many hours of worrying about god's existence. I know about selective memory and the likelihood that things will happen if you focus on them/you will make connections, but it all feels too real and too much to just ignore. I try hard to refute my experiences and fears, but recently I have lost my "belief" that there is evidence to disprove god's existence. I've even tried reading the arguments against a particular kind of god by Victor Stenger, but I have heard most of it already. I feel heavy a burden of disproof for the things that have happened, that I don't feel like I have met no matter how hard I try, and now feel like can't be reached. I try and try to prove it wrong, but some things just aren't refutable, and I can only "let go". That is not good enough for my fear though, I need directly contradicting facts/reason that I probably can never have for the experiences that have accumulated. My emotions are what are telling me I need more, and I can't get it. It might just be fearful emotions telling me this, but they are strong enough to make me feel depressed and wrong. I used to have enough anti-christian conviction/will that I could ignore these things, but the emotions are too strong for me to believe there is nothing to what I am going through. Intellectually not believing in Christianity is fine/easy, emotionally I cannot find relief. I am used to these kinds of things usually, but the last minor thing was, for some reason, the last straw for my confidence. I have almost zero confidence against Christianity. It's not that I believe whole-heartedly believe that it is true, it is that I have no more confidence that it isn't, and my emotional reactions to my experiences only leave if I do not think of them. Also, I was considerably affected by the emotional manipulation of the church, as I am much sensitive in general, and it still has that emotional status as being the only religion I have doubts about. @Valk, I know that's all anyone on this site sees me as.....but I am more than that. No though, this was before when I wasn't smoking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Might make you feel better http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/51424-to-enquire-to-create-some-thoughts-of-a-exchristian-that-is-no-longer-a-newbie/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3DollarBill Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Fallout, lemme clarify something about burden of proof: My cousin Ray Ray has a taco truck on the moon. I know this to be true because he told me, and then last christmas he made us some tacos that were so fuckin delicious they had to be moon tacos. He also knows a whole lot of stuff about the moon and clearly only people who live there would be so knowledgeable. Believe me? No? Okay then, quit believing in magic sky daddy just because some ancient desert dwellers wrote a book about him. And no, I don't think of you as "just a pothead" you freely said on that other thread that you were stoned off your ass when you had some deep spiritual experience that got you thinking maybe biblegod is real. Why you would trust something you felt while on a depressant I'll never know, weed's fun but it sure as hell doesn't make you smarter. Lay off it some... yes I know there are no demonstrable long term health consequences, mental or physical, but short term that shit can make you paranoid and sounds like it might be causing you some unnecessary stress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wester Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Buddhists have a saying that you can never step into the same river twice. CS Lewis, a christian, posited that the man who sits down in the train to read his newspaper is not the man who was just a short time ago standing on the platform. Smoke em if you got em, my friend. I would suggest that it is not the substance that messes with your mind, but the culture that pathologizes it. If you have no friend to help you along your way, you can try for starters Peter Tosh, Bob Marley (Rastafarians are heretical Christians, y'know), Mr. Beethoven, John Coltrane, Lenny Bruce or Bill Hicks. Enjoy yr life :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3DollarBill Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Smoke em if you got em, my friend. I would suggest that it is not the substance that messes with your mind, but the culture that pathologizes it. No, it's the substance. In sufficient quantities it's mildly hallucinogenic, and that can be uncomfortable during religious deconversion. I do actually know what I'm talking about. A couple times in the past after smoking unusually potent product I became extremely stressed out thinking about hell. The first time I ingested it was a total mindfuck...we didn't know how much to use and wound up taking about 6x what I now consider standard. The next 2 hours felt like 2 days and I was in terror the whole time. I didn't stop using regularly after that and in fact I still smoke plenty of it. But I did learn to control myself and to not use enough for my head to go to the bad place, and I have also progressed in my deconversion to the point that the hell anxiety is rare. It is very much the substance, and I really think you may find it helpful to cut back. But the main thing is: There's no reason to believe that your thoughts should be trusted when you are stoned off your ass! Altered perception is fun, but don't read too much into it. Sure, you can have great ideas while under the influence but if it doesn't make any sense the next morning, then it doesn't make any damn sense. You know Christianity is bullshit, why would you let drugs convince you otherwise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunaticheathen Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Fallout, I know you are a sensitive and thoughtful person. I am the same way, and that can tend towards all kinds of existential angst - I've been there. What helped me was to just consciously sit down, shut up, and just be. I know it's not easy, especially at first. Your mind races like a greyhound on crack. Just Breathe. Just Exist. Work on this at least 10 minutes a day, until you can sit, relatively quiet (I've never gotten my mind to completely shut up, and I've been at this for years) and not panic over spiritual what-ifs. If you want specific grounding/meditation techniques, you can PM me. I know several that are unattached to any specific religion/spirituality. Bottom line, right now, you need to let go of reaching any conclusion about god(s). Work on just being yourself, calmly. Observe yourself. The big questions aren't helpful to you right now. I wish you peace. *hugs* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblueep Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Fallout, Your honesty is amazing. It can't be easy to expose your inner world, especially in a forum. I applaud you for that. I'm no expert, but it seems to me that love is missing from your life, except from your mom. I don't know that anyone can satisfy that emotional need with intellectualism, which is perhaps what you have tried to do. One question: Why are you seeing a christian counselor? It seems that is not the best choice. One suggestion: Go find some love. IMO, the easiest way to find some love is to give some away. Go and be loving to some one/group. It's a risk for sure, but generally you can get some honest love in return. Love can fix a whole lot of messes brother Best wishes to you. I promise that life does get better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FeelHappy Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Fallout, in all respectfulness, just how do you come to the conclusion that there is evidence for the christian god?? I'm honestly asking, I've read many of the ideas / "proofs" and I don't see how any of them prove anything. As for a proof against the christian god where do we even start? There are many many reasons to reject him. I'll start with a quote from Epicurus (not a christian but equally meaningful). "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?" Other proofs, the bible's science is flat out wrong, it shows an ancient near east way of thinking not what's actually out there. There is no dome over the sky separating the waters in the sky from the earth, the earth wasn't created in 6 days, sons of god didn't made with daughters of men and create a race of giants, there is no adam and eve, the flood account isn't true and its just a copy anyways, the bible has contradictions and many of them, the story of jesus's resurrection sure seems like a myth/urban legend rather than truth (same as the virgin birth), I could go on and on and on, in the end there's just too many things showing that the christian god is man made to ignore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falloutdude Posted June 8, 2012 Author Share Posted June 8, 2012 Fallout, in all respectfulness, just how do you come to the conclusion that there is evidence for the christian god?? I'm honestly asking, I've read many of the ideas / "proofs" and I don't see how any of them prove anything. As for a proof against the christian god where do we even start? There are many many reasons to reject him. I'll start with a quote from Epicurus (not a christian but equally meaningful). "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?" Other proofs, the bible's science is flat out wrong, it shows an ancient near east way of thinking not what's actually out there. There is no dome over the sky separating the waters in the sky from the earth, the earth wasn't created in 6 days, sons of god didn't made with daughters of men and create a race of giants, there is no adam and eve, the flood account isn't true and its just a copy anyways, the bible has contradictions and many of them, the story of jesus's resurrection sure seems like a myth/urban legend rather than truth (same as the virgin birth), I could go on and on and on, in the end there's just too many things showing that the christian god is man made to ignore. I know all of it....Actually that used to be my favorite philosophical quote from the classical Greek philosophers, but I also know that before I got to this point I had an experience that seems so improbable based on the factors, and because of the strong emotions due to my past experience with a prayer "sign" I had with my father while driving one time. No one will ever really understand.....My emotional bondage of that experience, and it's implications of what might be are so strong when combined with my anxiety problems and ocd-like thought problems, which facilitate my depression to the point of suicide. No matter what else I think about, when I start thinking about what happened to me and how everything seems so improbable that I just get overwhelmed not being able to think of a rational alternative other than "coincidence" which I cannot emotionally bear....since it is ambiguous enough for my anxiety and doubt to work with.... On an intellectual level I have too many doubts because of apologetic stuff rattling through my brain, along with my experience that happened with my father awhile ago. It's on my other thread about being confused with what to do...I would post it on a independent thread but I figure people will either ignore it or insult me....or both (like not trying to help/just commenting). Plus, like I said, I already have two threads going.... Also, the refusal of some annoyed people to even discuss some things leaves me having to try and sort it out in my anxiety-ridden mind by myself. I can't get over something if I can't talk about it without worrying about being openly mocked. I realize it all has no emotional or intellectual influence over them anymore, but I need help to get to past my emotions myself...I am a lot more sensitive than most people, and need that corresponding emotional security or I can't stop worrying about it. Even though I am virtually at the end of my journey, I need to get over things that happened in between that I have a hard time getting closure on. However, the only ones that can help me are people who know what I am talking about so I don't have to explain enormous amounts of background information (ie exchristians). The trouble is this is even a bigger problem on the internet, and so any misunderstanding is amplified greatly, also people are a lot more likely to just treat you like crap because, well, its the internet. I'm just some random crazy person who is having a harder time with it than they feel like, or know how to, deal with, and am on the internet, so people can just insult me and move on to people who are easier to deal with...At the very least hating to discuss things with someone with so many issues with someone who struggles so much with this... How can I teach myself to swim while I'm drowning? People just wonder why I don't just move on, but in my emotionally anxious state it is difficult to get past things without having someone help me through it...I just want some people to talk to, for support.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Thoughts on this http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jesus_resurrection/chap3.html That helped cleared up alot of things about probability and supernatural experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Again, because it can't be said enough. Drug enduced experiences are unreliable shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falloutdude Posted June 8, 2012 Author Share Posted June 8, 2012 I wasn't under the influence of a drug in this instance... I was completely sober... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falloutdude Posted June 8, 2012 Author Share Posted June 8, 2012 Also this was before I smoked as heavily as I do now, I don't even know if I was allowed to smoke in my house openly back then...and barely smoked in comparison. If you want to help, that problem/experience/prayer with my father is what is really holding me back, more than anything else. Despite my facts, my doubts latch onto the "improbability" of that experience. I read your article, and I understand its points, although I'm not quite in the same position since I experienced the event myself/ that seems to be discuss probability of miracles occurring in history. I know the presumption of god existing or not plays into the probability, but the problem is that I don't know which one I subscribe to. I just don't know how to detach a causal link between my prayer and what happened, and with that perception of improbability becomes the basis for my fear of a causal link....People probably just think I'm insane...I don't know. I just need to make some sense of it, to have some confidence that what happened could have happened randomly, and that what happened wasn't so improbable; that all of this could really just happen by coincidence. I have no way of evaluating that probability directly though....This doubt is the foundation for doubting other things I believe, or do not believe. I don't really believe in Christ/god, but I also am not sure he doesn't exist because of my experience. I'm not committed to god (and don't really want to be), but I also do not know a way out of believing, despite knowing that no doubt people from other religions probably have similar stuff...I just don't have the confidence enough to deny what happened to me what not a religious experience, that what happened to me is nothing. I tried listening to John Shelby Spong for hope that I could know that even if I was wrong that I had a chance to view god as not as oppressive as the bible god, but then I realized that kind of god does not sound like he would answer prayers for seeking him. I just need some hope that there is a way out of the experience I wish I never had.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Also this was before I smoked as heavily as I do now, I don't even know if I was allowed to smoke in my house openly back then...and barely smoked in comparison. If you want to help, that problem/experience/prayer with my father is what is really holding me back, more than anything else. Despite my facts, my doubts latch onto the "improbability" of that experience. I read your article, and I understand its points, although I'm not quite in the same position since I experienced the event first hand. I just don't know how to detach a causal link between my prayer and what happened, and with that perception of improbability becomes to basis for my fear of a causal link....People probably just think I'm insane...I don't know. I just need to make some sense of it, to have some confidence that what happened could have happened randomly, and that what happened wasn't so improbable; that all of this could really just happen by coincidence. I have no way of evaluating that probability directly though.... Then you must not have read the article very carefully. Because alot of the same principals apply. Lets say, for sake of argument, the bible as far as a history book is perfectly flawless, and we see a bunch of suffering in the world but, prayers are sometimes granted, and miracles sometimes occur. But we have no good reason, from science, to believe that genesis is a accurate account of the origins of the universe. Now, we come to your experiences, yes they happened, but why what caused it. The main thing I was hoping you would glean from that article though but there is a point in this that is somewhat related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dxh0pC6CT7Q&feature=my_liked_videos&list=LL77rAJmLI9QFtEJSBhpMzLA , was that if your going to make a case for the nature of reality, if your going to use one event or one thing, you would have to prove the nature of reality (christian, muslim whatever), because to use that one event, whether it be personal experience or the resurrection to prove the nature of reality, is fallacious. A part of a whole is not the whole(otherwise known as a composition fallacy). So, alright, again back to the sake of arguement, the bible is a flawless piece of history, and you had your experience. What does that say, unless that whole has already been proven. Its being gracious I believe to say this, but its not incorrect, to say, alright we have a mystery on are hands that we may or may not solve. Your left with agnosticism at best, nothing close to Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falloutdude Posted June 8, 2012 Author Share Posted June 8, 2012 I understand the connection/that unless I prove everything else I can not technically say what happened proves the bible is true or that the Christian religion; from a completely objective perspective it proves nothing since it was only one experience and that I'd need more than that to conclude that it was true. At the same time though, I am coming from a place that is not objective, from an emotional/fearful place, though. I have my previous bias of being a Christian, and was praying to Christian god, with my father bringing up a Christian experience. I have read these arguments and understand them and acknowledge them as logically sound, but they are only indirectly dealing with my issue. I am left with only the logical argument that it can't directly been inferred, but the only thing I can do is try to not think about it. Also I am a little confused about your explanation. Here are some other logical arguments I know against my experience being proof of anything. http://atheism.about.../a/miracles.htm http://atheism.about...coincidence.htm I am also a little confused what you mean when you say that even if the bible were true and I had my experience, that you could not reasonably think that proves Christianity. What part of the composition is missing? What would be left to prove? What do you mean when you say prove the nature of reality/What is required to prove such a thing? Most of all, even if I can reject jumping to conclusions on the intellectual level, how do I deal with the feelings/emotional beliefs, especially when I feel like I am leaning towards the illogical conclusion in my thoughts/it moves me more emotionally. Maybe ShaneL is right, and I should go kill myself, and I am too stupid/irrational to ever really be free of superstition, especially with this experience....and my weed/mental defects....I am just lost. I hope I die before I become a fundamentalist, this fate is unacceptable and a mockery of true happiness. Although technically I am screwed anyways....so if I believe I am just bound for hell anyways....and there is no bright side to life...there is no escape and any disbelief will be tainted by my sacrilege. The only way I know how to deal with this kind of thing is discrediting certain interpretations by breaking down the event until it seems like it is likely enough to have happened by chance. I know this is me taking the burden of proof, but this is pretty much the only way I have found to deal with stuff like this....Which is why so many people get impatient...and think I am a lost cause...I think death would be preferable, but only pain and hollow living is left. I have no love for god if it is him who is there, and have no hope for mental freedom. This experience happened before my ultimate sacrilege of blaspheming the holy spirit. If I don't kill myself I might end up hurting others.....this life of misery and ultimate doom of slavery or burning for eternity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Well maybe I wasn't clear I am saying, assume for the sake of argument that the bible is 100 historically accurate (I am not talking about the miracles, I talking about the existence of a empty tomb, or the guards took a bride from the jewish religious leaders kinds of things. And I know you had your experience, but I am talking about the possibilities that one could use to, say, ahh this is why it happened. Well think about it. Wouldn't christianity be true across the board? If the problem of evil as a arguement against the christian god is sound, then why bother with the experience. That is just one example, I brought up and implied a couple others. Its called Reductio ad absurdum. Its a logical impossibility, that there are actually valid arguements against the existence of the christian god, in one area, but there is proof of him in different areas, like personal experience. Its a case of it either being true or false. To put it another way. I am not sure how many of these you think are bunk or you agree with. But I am going to list some common arguements for the existence of a theist god. The ontological Arguement. The telelogical arguement The cosmological arguement. The arguement that you need a objective law giver for ethics. Pascals wager. Lets say, all these are failures, or they at best prove deism. Then, you can't logically then say on another breath, there is evidence for the resurrection for jesus. Or that the christian god answered a prayer. You have no evidence for the god. If there is not a god in the first place, no miracles are even possible, and there is no resurrection. Its a hook trick that apologists play, they try to use arguements like the resurrection, when they only make sense if there god is already proven. Mostly my point was, to only refer to one big thing or even two big things, like say personal experience or the arguement for the resurrection, is not considering the full picture. Its losing the forest for the tree's. If we got good enough arguements to prove that a theistic god exists before hand then the rest is easy. But if we don't, then we are at best left with some I don't knows. Its why I wanted to you to really read the article the discuss this. Its called prior probability. If this is a atheistic world, then there aren't any good reason to believe in miracles. If its a theistic world, then, there is better reason to believe things like, the historicity of the resurrection or that the christian god actually did something for you. Either this is a theistic world or it isn't. If its a theistic world, then you could start quibling over details like. Did god actually raise jesus from the dead or the christian god actually answered your prayer. Don't loose the forrest for the tree's is what I am saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Sorry I may not be perfectly clear. I am really tired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Oh another thing to consider, William Lane Craig more or less states this, in his arguement that the resurrection is reliable. I think what he says applies to even miracles or answered prayers. It is not ad hoc or contrived: it requires only one additional hypothesis: that God exists http://www.reasonabl...ection-of-jesus That is really a key, question when dealing with probability of miracles. Nontheistic god/no god=no miracles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Ohh and listen to that robert price interview particularly near the end, him and the interview say a similar sentiment to what I tried to say here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Come to think of it, one I didn't mention was prophecy. Even if, the messiah prohecies prove jesus (I don't think they do, but that is a different arguement), then still, your left with a mystery, if there other reasons to not believe a god exists. Again either its true all the way around or it isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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