Kris Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 This may have been addressed before, but I was just wondering what everyone's thoughts were regarding the Bone Box (Ossuary) of James, supposedly the son of Joseph, and the brother of Jesus. This box came to light back in 2002, and all kinds of hoopla surrounded it, as some people thought it to be authentic, while others found it to be a well-crafted fake. An Antiquities Dealer, Oden Golen apparently had this box for a number of years and then showed it to a few folks who in turn deemed it authentic (Hershel Shanks of the Bibiical Archeology Review was one) and wanted to put it on a display tour, etc. Once other scholars started looking at it in depth, however, questions arose-- the IAA reviewed the box and determined it to be a fake. Oden Golen was arrested for fraud, when it was discovered that he had tools, half-created objects, and a patina-like substance at his residence. There were also other allegations that he had forged other objects that he sold and one egyptian even stated that he helped with the engraving of a number of objects. A long trial ensued and all kinds of stuff came out-- with different experts disagreeing on the patina in the engraved areas (which had been "washed", oddly enough!) The trial went on for years. One interesting occurance was that the proscecution was trying to show that the box had been recently tampered with, however, the defense provided a photograph that appeared to be from the 70's showing the box on a shelf along with books from the 70's, etc. The proscecution shot back saying that a forger could easily stage a photograph to look old-- and this may have been done to avoid tying the box to the Talpoit tombs, or to have to turn the artifact over to authorities as the laws recently changed in Israel regarding finds. At the end of the trial, the judge stated that there was not enough evidence to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that a forgery occured-- and Oden was set free, along with his bone box. Now, the BAR (Biblical Archeology Review-- News-- Bible History Daily) is asserting that the box is authentic-- they had an article on their website today. While I think that there are a lot of questions surrounding this box, I was wondering what all of you thought-- is it a total fraud? Could it be a box with names common to the first century era in Israel that just happen to have Jesus, Joseph and James on it, but have nothing to do with Jesus? Could it have ties to a historical Jesus, but not provide any proof that he was god incarnate, or is this proof of biblical accuracy in that Jesus really lived? What do all of you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Doesn't mean shit. The judge could be wrong. It proves nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted June 13, 2012 Moderator Share Posted June 13, 2012 hi Kris! I found this to be pretty interesting. You watch it and we can discuss..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Posted June 13, 2012 Author Share Posted June 13, 2012 That was very interesting Margee-- thanks so much for sharing this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted June 13, 2012 Moderator Share Posted June 13, 2012 That was very interesting Margee-- thanks so much for sharing this! Did it help a little? I find what they are saying makes complete sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Posted June 13, 2012 Author Share Posted June 13, 2012 Yes-- I think that it is helpful to know that there were a lot of people with these names-- and that it appears that there were a lot of bone boxes out there-- I also think that the opportunity for fraud could be rampant-- as far back as during early christianity times to current! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted June 14, 2012 Moderator Share Posted June 14, 2012 That was very interesting Margee-- thanks so much for sharing this! Did it help a little? I find what they are saying makes complete sense to me. Here's some pro and con's with the whole issue. What they say about the common names makes huge sense to me. There are a million 'Donna's' in the world right now and they were all born around my era of 54. There aren't many Donna's today. You rarely hear anyone name their baby this. All the Donna's are around my age, born between 1945-1958. If those names on the boxes were a bit rarer, or other details were added, or some reference to the special reverence or status for Jesus, etc....we would be on safer ground. But I think as it is, that such a bonebox would be recovered even if Jesus never existed. Fraud has been rampant since the beginning of time Kris!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micksherlock Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Yes-- I think that it is helpful to know that there were a lot of people with these names-- and that it appears that there were a lot of bone boxes out there-- I also think that the opportunity for fraud could be rampant-- as far back as during early christianity times to current! Yes-- I think that it is helpful to know that there were a lot of people with these names-- and that it appears that there were a lot of bone boxes out there-- I also think that the opportunity for fraud could be rampant-- as far back as during early christianity times to current! Yeh, and I heard someone found Peter's car keys! You know Peter, right? The guy from London, who lives in that little apartment, down the road from the that Supermarket! It is just amazing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted June 14, 2012 Moderator Share Posted June 14, 2012 Yes-- I think that it is helpful to know that there were a lot of people with these names-- and that it appears that there were a lot of bone boxes out there-- I also think that the opportunity for fraud could be rampant-- as far back as during early christianity times to current! Yes-- I think that it is helpful to know that there were a lot of people with these names-- and that it appears that there were a lot of bone boxes out there-- I also think that the opportunity for fraud could be rampant-- as far back as during early christianity times to current! Yeh, and I heard someone found Peter's car keys! You know Peter, right? The guy from London, who lives in that little apartment, down the road from the that Supermarket! It is just amazing! the thing is.... it still presents a problem for christians. For if christianity is true, then James is the man who preached unto death that his brother was the Messiah, the Savior of Israel, possibly even the Son of God Himself, the key to every human being's eternal salvation and he didn't even write that on his brother's box!!. Jesus is simply listed as a mere brother, with no hint of anything special at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted June 14, 2012 Moderator Share Posted June 14, 2012 Kris, I also found this to be a quite interesting article on artifact evaluation......It's so much fun to learn all this stuff?? Everybody else in the world is out picking flowers, but we deep thinkers are close to our computers and will sit here all night until we know the 'deep' answers to life!! I'm going to investigate what was behind the big bang now........ Don't forget to have some fun in life hon!! http://www.stonedagger.com/eval.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Posted June 14, 2012 Author Share Posted June 14, 2012 Thanks for your help Margee-- you are awesome! KM 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherJosh Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 There's a difference between proving things in reality and proving things legally. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted June 14, 2012 Moderator Share Posted June 14, 2012 There's a difference between proving things in reality and proving things legally. Josh.... it's kinda' like the bible has been passed down for a long,long, long time...BUT, that does not make it true!! I learned that on EX-c!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micksherlock Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Jesus is simply listed as a mere brother, with no hint of anything special at all. And wasn't that inscription found to be done with a cutting tool and filled in with chalk, within the past 50 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 So in the 70's the James Ossuary is just some thing to put on your shelf with some books and no one cares? But wait a few years and it's all the rage? It's already 2000 years old. A few more isn't going to make a difference. These sorts of relics don't work that way. If people knew about it in the 70's they would have wanted it in the 70's. He was sitting on it for some reason or it spent its "history" (whatever it was) not being related to the "Jesus of Nazareth" and that came later. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Posted June 14, 2012 Author Share Posted June 14, 2012 I found the photograph to be the most interesting part of the trial. I think it could be one of several things--- the photo was faked by using old paper with an old watermark, and by strategically placing items in the picture to make it look to be from a certain era-- including a picture of an old girlfriend who testified at the trial. Or, Oden could have had the box thatching ago and was trying to "age" it with his patina concoction. The last alternative is that he just had an old box an did nit know the significance of it-- which was what his story was. The prosecution felt like the photo was easily faked by an expert forger and asked why he would take a random picture of these shelves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 I'd like to see the picture just to see it. I've taken plenty of "random" pics that weren't so random at the time (but I have no idea why I took them later...although usually I'm trying out something with the camera or I messed up and fired off a picture when I didn't mean to). So it would be interesting to see just out of curiosity (I did a quick search but couldn't spot anything). mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Posted June 14, 2012 Author Share Posted June 14, 2012 I think that Oden is very smart and crafty-- I would not be surprised if he created an old photo to bolster his story. It is easy to buy old photo paper online and then develop it old school style. If he is as much of a charlatan as they say he is, it is extremely reasonable that he could do this. The problem is that the proscecutors could not effectively prove without any doubt that the photo, or even the artifacts were forged. Unless you catch someone red-handed, that is pretty hard to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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