False Covenants and Failed Prophecies

[Matthew]

False Covenants and Failed Prophecies

 

One of the reasons I do not believe that the Christian faith is true or that the Bible is the verbally inspired and inerrant word of God is because of the errancy of the Hebrew Bible. One kind of errancy is that of failed prophecies. Although a case can probably be made for several failed prophecies, two in particular were based on false covenants. A false covenant was made between the Hebrew tribal god Yahweh and the Hebrew patriarch Abraham and a false prophecy based on this, and another was made between Yahweh and the Hebrew patriarch David. The former was in regards to a land promise and the second was in regards to an eternal kingdom for David. Both of these prophecies failed, thereby invalidating the covenants. I will show examples of how they both failed and give a historical reason for why they did so.

 

Part 1: Yahweh's Failed Land Promise

 

Yahweh swore an oath to Abraham: that his descendents would not only be numerous but would also inherit the land promised to them forever. In Genesis 13: 14-18, Yahweh states:

 

14The LORD said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him, " Now lift up your eyes and look from the place where you are, northward and southward and eastward and westward;

15  for all the land which you see, I will give it to you and to your descendants forever.

16 "I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth, so that if anyone can number the dust of the earth, then your descendants can also be numbered.

17 "Arise, walk about the land through its length and breadth; for I will give it to you."

18 Then Abram moved his tent and came and dwelt by the oaks of Mamre, which are in Hebron, and there he built an altar to the LORD.

 

Yahweh repeated this promise made to Abraham in Genesis 17: 4-8 where once again multilpe descendents and an everlasting promise is made:

 

4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5"No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.

6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you.

7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

8 " I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."

 

This promise was made not only to Abraham but also to Isaac and Jacob. Yahweh clearly promised that He would give the land of the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites to the seed/descendents of Abraham. In Deuteronomy 7: 17-24 it's written:

 

17 "If you should say in your heart, 'These nations are greater than I; how can I dispossess them?'

18 you shall not be afraid of them; you shall well remember what the LORD your God did to Pharaoh and to all Egypt:

19 the great trials which your eyes saw and the signs and the wonders and the mighty hand and the outstretched arm by which the LORD your God brought you out. So shall the LORD your God do to all the peoples of whom you are afraid.

20 "Moreover, the LORD your God will send the hornet against them, until those who are left and hide themselves from you perish.

21 "You shall not dread them, for the LORD your God is in your midst, a great and awesome God.

22 "The LORD your God will clear away these nations before you little by little; you will not be able to put an end to them quickly, for the wild beasts would grow too numerous for you.

23 "But the LORD your God will deliver them before you, and will throw them into great confusion until they are destroyed.

24 "He will deliver their kings into your hand so that you will make their name perish from under heaven; no man will be able to stand before you until you have destroyed them

 

The substance of this prophecy was repeated in places like Exodus 23: 20-33; Deuteronomy 4:33-39, 7:1-2, 31:1-8. In some of these passages, seven nations which are said to be mightier than the Hebrews who will clearly be driven out: the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, the Hittites, the Hivites, the Jebusites, and the Perizzites.

 

Joshua assumed leadership upon the death of Moses and as of such, the promise was renewed. In Joshua 1:1-6, we read:

 

1 Now it came about after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD, that the LORD spoke to Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' servant, saying,

2 "Moses My servant is dead; now therefore arise, cross this Jordan, you and all this people, to the land which I am giving to them, to the sons of Israel.

3 "Every place on which the sole of your foot treads, I have given it to you, just as I spoke to Moses.

4 "From the wilderness and this Lebanon, even as far as the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and as far as the Great Sea toward the setting of the sun will be your territory.

5 "No man will be able to stand before you all the days of your life. Just as I have been with Moses, I will be with you; (6) I will not fail you or forsake you.

6 "Be strong and courageous, for you shall give this people possession of the land which I swore to their fathers to give them.

 

The promise was repeated right before crossing the Jordan:

 

9 Then Joshua said to the sons of Israel, "Come here, and hear the words of the LORD your God."

10 Joshua said, "By this you shall know that the living God is among you, and that He will assuredly dispossess from before you the Canaanite, the Hittite, the Hivite, the Perizzite, the Girgashite, the Amorite, and the Jebusite.

11 "Behold, the ark of the covenant of the Lord of all the earth is crossing over ahead of you into the Jordan.

 

There is no ambiguity in these verses: the language was as detailed and specific as could be. Yahweh would drive out all the inhabitants of the land of Canaan and give it to the Hebrews to fulfill the promise sworn to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. To summarize the content of these verses we note 5 specific points:

 

1.) Without fail, God would drive out all the people possessing the land beyond the Jordan

 

2.) No man would be able to stand up against the Israelites in all the days of their lives.

 

3.) The Israelties would drive out the nations possessing the land and would utterly destroy them and the memory of their name from under heaven. They were to make no covenants with the nations in this land or show them mercy ( Deut. 7:2)

 

4.) Every place that the sole of their feet would treat upon, Yahweh would give it to them.

 

5.) The land to be possess would stretch from the Red Sea unto the Euphrates river and from the great sea to the going down of the sun.

 

The land promise was also made unconditional on the part of the Hebrew's behavior. There was nothing that the Hebrews could do to void the promise made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. We read that the promise is unconditional in Deut. 9: 3-6.

 

3 "Know therefore today that it is the LORD your God who is crossing over before you as a consuming fire. He will destroy them and He will subdue them before you, so that you may drive them out and destroy them quickly, just as the LORD has spoken to you.

4 "Do not say in your heart when the LORD your God has driven them out before you, 'Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in to possess this land,' but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is dispossessing them before you.

5 "It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God is driving them out before you, in order to confirm the oath which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

6 "Know, then, it is not because of your righteousness that the LORD your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stubborn people.

 

We see that Yahweh was not giving the land to the Hebrews because of their righteousness. On the contrary, it was because of an unconditional promise made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. In fact, Yahweh considered the Hebrews a stubborn, stiff-kneck people (Exodus 33: 1-6). The unconditional nature is also stated in Leviticus 26: 42-45:

 

42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and I will remember also My covenant with Isaac, and My covenant with Abraham as well, and I will remember the land.

43 'For the land will be abandoned by them, and will make up for its sabbaths while it is made desolate without them. They, meanwhile, will be making amends for their iniquity, because they rejected My ordinances and their soul abhorred My statutes.

44 'Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, nor will I so abhor them as to destroy them, breaking My covenant with them; for I am the LORD their God.

45 'But I will remember for them the covenant with their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God. I am the LORD.'"

 

Time and time again, it's stated that the Hebrews would be given the land regardless of their own conduct. It was only because Yahweh had to fulfill the vow he swore. After the promise had been made, they were led by Joshua to possess it. We read that Joshua and the Hebrews thoroughly and completely subdued the land. In Joshua 10: 40-43 we read:

 

40 Thus Joshua struck all the land, the hill country and the Negev and the lowland and the slopes and all their kings. He left no survivor, but he utterly destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded.

41 Joshua struck them from Kadesh-barnea even as far as Gaza, and all the country of Goshen even as far as Gibeon.

42 Joshua captured all these kings and their lands at one time, because the LORD, the God of Israel, fought for Israel.

43 So Joshua and all Israel with him returned to the camp at Gilgal.

 

In Joshua 11: 6-17 more of this fulfillment is recorded:

 

6 Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Do not be afraid because of them, for tomorrow at this time I will deliver all of them slain before Israel; you shall hamstring their horses and burn their chariots with fire."

7 So Joshua and all the people of war with him came upon them suddenly by the waters of Merom, and attacked them.

8 The LORD delivered them into the hand of Israel, so that they defeated them, and pursued them as far as Great Sidon and Misrephoth-maim and the valley of Mizpeh to the east; and they struck them until no survivor was left to them.

9 Joshua did to them as the LORD had told him; he hamstrung their horses and burned their chariots with fire.

10 Then Joshua turned back at that time, and captured Hazor and struck its king with the sword; for Hazor formerly was the head of all these kingdoms.

11  They struck every person who was in it with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them; there was no one left who breathed. And he burned Hazor with fire.

12 Joshua captured all the cities of these kings, and all their kings, and he struck them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed them; just as Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded.

13 However, Israel did not burn any cities that stood on their mounds, except Hazor alone, which Joshua burned.

14 All the spoil of these cities and the cattle, the sons of Israel took as their plunder; but they struck every man with the edge of the sword, until they had destroyed them. They left no one who breathed.

15 Just as the LORD had commanded Moses his servant, so Moses commanded Joshua, and so Joshua did; he left nothing undone of all that the LORD had commanded Moses.

16 Thus Joshua took all that land: the hill country and all the Negev, all that land of Goshen, the lowland, the Arabah, the hill country of Israel and its lowland

17 from Mount Halak, that rises toward Seir, even as far as Baal-gad in the valley of Lebanon at the foot of Mount Hermon. And he captured all their kings and struck them down and put them to death

 

23 So Joshua took the whole land, according to all that the LORD had spoken to Moses, and Joshua gave it for an inheritance to Israel according to their divisions by their tribes. Thus the land had rest from war. (Joshua 11:23

 

Thus we read that the land promise was fulfilled: everything that Yahweh had sworn had come to pass and not a word failed. All of the seven nations had been driven out and not a man was able to stand against the Hebrews. The totality of this cannot be under-emphaized: the promise land borders extended from the Red Sea to the sea of the Philistines, from the wilderness, to Lebanon, and to the great river Euphrates. Furthermore, the fulfillment claims state that the Israelites left none alive to breathe and that not a man of all their enemies stood against them. The seven nations driven out were the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, the Hittites, the Hivites, the Jebusites, and the Perizzites. Everything came to pass as promised...or did it?

 

However in Joshua 13: 1-6 we read differently:

 

1 Now Joshua was old and advanced in years when the LORD said to him, "You are old and advanced in years, and very much of the land remains to be possessed.

2 "This is the land that remains: all the regions of the Philistines and all those of the Geshurites;

3 from the Shihor which is east of Egypt, even as far as the border of Ekron to the north (it is counted as Canaanite); the five lords of the Philistines: the Gazite, the Ashdodite, the Ashkelonite, the Gittite, the Ekronite; and the Avvite

4 to the south, all the land of the Canaanite, and Mearah that belongs to the Sidonians, as far as Aphek, to the border of the Amorite;

5 and the land of the Gebalite, and all of Lebanon, toward the east, from Baal-gad below Mount Hermon as far as Lebo-hamath.

6 "All the inhabitants of the hill country from Lebanon as far as Misrephoth-maim, all the Sidonians, I will drive them out from before the sons of Israel; only allot it to Israel for an inheritance as I have commanded you.

 

This passage flatly contradicts Joshua 11:23 which states that Joshua took the whole land, according to all that Yahweh had promised so the land had rest from war. All the promised territories singled out in this passage as land that remained to be possessed laid within the boundaries that were laid out in Joshua 1:1-6 to specify the scope of the land that Yahweh would give to the Hebrews. How could it therefore be said that "very much of the land remains to be possessed"? Much of the rest of Joshua and the better part of Judges actually contradict all the fulfillment claims outlined above. For instance, in Joshua 53:16 we read:

 

63 Now as for the Jebusites, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the sons of Judah could not drive them out; so the Jebusites live with the sons of Judah at Jerusalem until this day

 

But weren't the Jebusites one of the seven nations specifically mentioned in the promise that would be utterly destroyed? Same with the Canaanites. In Joshua 16:10 we read:

 

10 (10) But they did not drive out the Canaanites who lived in Gezer, so (11) the Canaanites live in the midst of Ephraim to this day, and they became forced laborers.

 

Once again..the Canaanites were specifically mentioned as one of the seven nations, no? Joshua 17: 12-13 we read:

 

12 But the sons of Manasseh could not take possession of these cities, because the Canaanites persisted in living in that land.

13 It came about when the sons of Israel became strong, they put the Canaanites to forced labor, but they did not drive them out completely

 

In fact we read in Joshua 16:10; 17:12-13; Judges 1:1-5; 1:9; 1:21; 1:27-36; 3:1-6 we read of people the Hebrews could not completely drive out. What's more..many of these were among the seven nations promised to be utterly driven out.

 

This is the failure of the land promise. The promise was unconditional and in one set of verses it was fulfilled and then in another set of passages it was never originally fulfilled in the first place!

 

In my next post will come Part 2...

[Matthew]

False Convenants and Failed Prophecies

 

Part 2

 

In the last part, I examined a failed prophecy that was based on a flawed covenant between the Hebrew tribal god Yahweh and the Hebrew patriarch Abraham. Now it's time to examine another failed prophecy. It, too, is based upon a flawed covenant. This covenant was made between the Hebrew tribal god Yahweh and the Hebrew patriarch David. The prophecy is that because of David's righteousness, there will be an eternal throne established. The covenant was made in 2 Samuel 7:8-16 where we read:

 

8 "Now therefore, thus you shall say to My servant David, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, "I took you from the pasture, from following the sheep, to be ruler over My people Israel.

9 "I have been with you wherever you have gone and have cut off all your enemies from before you; and I will make you a great name, like the names of the great men who are on the earth.

10 "I will also appoint a place for My people Israel and will plant them, that they may live in their own place and not be disturbed again, nor will the wicked afflict them any more as formerly,

11 even from the day that I commanded judges to be over My people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. The LORD also declares to you that the LORD will make a house for you.

12 "When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom.

13 "He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

14 "I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men,

15 but My lovingkindness shall not depart from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you.

16 "Your house and your kingdom shall endure before Me forever; your throne shall be established forever."'"

 

We see that David was promised an eternal kingdom and an eternal throne, one that would be established forever. When David died, his son Solomon recieved the throne from him. Solomon sinned but because of his covenant with David, Yahweh didn't put an end to the Kingdom but let Solomon stay on the throne: We read in 1st Kings 11:11-13):

 

9 Now the LORD was angry with Solomon because his heart was turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice,

10 and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he did not observe what the LORD had commanded.

11 So the LORD said to Solomon, "Because you have done this, and you have not kept My covenant and My statutes, which I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom from you, and will give it to your servant.

12 "Nevertheless I will not do it in your days for the sake of your father David, but I will tear it out of the hand of your son.

13 "However, I will not tear away all the kingdom, but I will give one tribe to your son for the sake of My servant David and for the sake of Jerusalem which I have chosen."

 

The kingdom was not torn away from Solomon in his lifetime but in his son's lifetime. This was all for David's sake. In 1st Kings 11:31-38 we read:

 

31 He said to Jeroboam, "Take for yourself ten pieces; for thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'Behold, I will tear the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon and give you ten tribes

32 but he will have one tribe, for the sake of My servant David and for the sake of Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen from all the tribes of Israel),

33 because they have forsaken Me, and have worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of Moab, and Milcom the god of the sons of Ammon; and they have not walked in My ways, doing what is right in My sight and observing My statutes and My ordinances, as his father David did.

34 'Nevertheless I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand, but I will make him ruler all the days of his life, for the sake of My servant David whom I chose, who observed My commandments and My statutes;

35 but I will take the kingdom from his son's hand and give it to you, even ten tribes.

36 'But to his son I will give one tribe, that My servant David may have a lamp always before Me in Jerusalem, the city where I have chosen for Myself to put My name.

37 'I will take you, and you shall reign over whatever you desire, and you shall be king over Israel.

38 'Then it will be, that if you listen to all that I command you and walk in My ways, and do what is right in My sight by observing My statutes and My commandments, as My servant David did, then I will be with you and build you an enduring house as I built for David, and I will give Israel to you.

 

Solomon's son Jeroboam had the kingdom torn away from him. The kingdom was divided into pieces and yet Solomon and his son were left with one piece. Solomon's son was given one tribe so that David would always have a lamp before Yahweh in Jerusalem. In 1st Kings 15:1-5 we read:

 

1 Now in the eighteenth year of King Jeroboam, the son of Nebat, Abijam became king over Judah.

2 He reigned three years in Jerusalem; and his mother's name was Maacah the daughter of Abishalom.

3 He walked in all the sins of his father which he had committed before him; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God, like the heart of his father David.

4  But for David's sake the LORD his God gave him a lamp in Jerusalem, to raise up his son after him and to establish Jerusalem;

5 because David did what was right in the sight of the LORD, and had not turned aside from anything that He commanded him all the days of his life, except in the case of Uriah the Hittite.

 

We see that even though Jeroboam had decided to follow in the sinful ways of Solomon, he never-the-less had one tribe so that David would always have a lamp in Jerusalem. When a descendent of David named Jehoram become king, he likewise sinned as well. We read in 2 Kings 8: 16-18:

 

16 Now in the fifth year of Joram the son of Ahab king of Israel, Jehoshaphat being then the king of Judah, Jehoram the son of Jehoshaphat king of Judah became king.

17 He was thirty-two years old when he became king, and he reigned eight years in Jerusalem.

18 He walked in the way of the kings of Israel, just as the house of Ahab had done, for the daughter of Ahab became his wife; and he did evil in the sight of the LORD.

19 However, the LORD was not willing to destroy Judah, for the sake of David His servant, since He had promised him to give a lamp to him through his sons always.

 

We see that even though he sinned, Yahweh was not willing to destroy Judah because of David. It says that he explicitly promised to give a lamp to David always. Likewise we read in 2 Chronicles 21:5-7:

 

5 Jehoram was thirty-two years old when he became king, and he reigned eight years in Jerusalem.

6 He walked in the way of the kings of Israel, just as the house of Ahab did for Ahab's daughter was his wife), and he did evil in the sight of the LORD.

7 Yet the LORD was not willing to destroy the house of David because of the covenant which He had made with David, and since He had promised to give a lamp to him and his sons forever.

 

These are a few examples to show that Yahweh had intended for there always to be a descendent of David on his throne. The throne was to be established forever. The language is explicit. Lest anyone argue that the language was in any sense figurative, we only need to read Jeremiah 33:17-21:

 

17 "For thus says the LORD, 'David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel;

18 and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man before Me to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to prepare sacrifices continually.'"

19 The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying,

20 "Thus says the LORD, 'If you can break My covenant for the day and My covenant for the night, so that day and night will not be at their appointed time,

21 then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant so that he will not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levitical priests, My ministers

 

Here we read that David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne in the house of Israel. We all see that the sacrificial system shall never lack a priest to offer burnt sacrifices (This also destroys any possibility that Christ's death on the cross could've had any atoning purposes). In fact..the eternal throne of David and the eternal sacrificial system are compared to the covenant made with day and night. God established it as an eternal covenant so that if one could break the natural order of day and night in nature, only then could one break the covenant between Yahweh and David or the sacrificial system of the Levites.

 

This prophecy has failed too. Since the fall of Jerusalem to King Nebuchadnezzar during the Babylonian, there has never been a king on Davids' throne. What's more is that the sacrificial system continued for centuries later until the 1st century C.E. In the first century C.E. we know that Judea was under direct rule from Rome and that King Herod Archelaus was the last ruler in Jerusalem until Rome disposed of him. There hasn't been a priest to perform annual sacrifices in Jerusalem since at least 70 C.E. Thus the prophecy proved false and the covenant was broken.

 

This concludes Part 2. In Part 3, I will examine historical reason(s) why these prophecies failed and why the covenant was false. We will find the answers in critical Bible scholarship from a respectable Hebrew Bible scholar.

 

Matthew

[Matthew]

False Covenants and Failed Prophecies

 

In parts 1 and 2 , I showed how two covenants and prophecies based on these covenants failed. The prophecies failed and the covenants were shown false. Now I will show a good reason to regard these prophecies as having failed. I will now show how critical scholarship shows these covenants to be false and the prophecies to have failed. I will rely on the work of a respectable Harvard Bible scholar, Dr. Frank Moore Cross.

 

In his book From Epic To Canon: History and Literature in Ancient Israel (Harvard Univ. Press, 1998), Cross has a chapter entitled "Kinship and Covenant in Ancient Israel" which deals with what are known as a"suzerian-vassal treaty". The Abrahamic and Davidic covenants are precisely of this nature. The subheader in which these kinds of treaties are discussed is called "Elements of Confusion in the Understanding of Israel's Ancient Covenant." In a footnote on page 14, Cross states:

 

There are, to be sure, some interesting parallels between two types of  "dynastic promise to David" and two types of dynastic clauses of suzerainty treaties of the second millennium. Certain elements are common to both types: The suzerain secures the vassal on the throne, secures the land in his possession, and lists land boundaries.  Sometimes "sonship" is granted.

 

But two types of promise are found in regard to the future of the dynasty. The usual is to promise that a king's heirs will remain on the throne under the protection of the suzerain so long as they are obedient to the stipulations of the covenant. The treaty makes the perpetuation of the dynasty conditional. In the second type, the promise of the land and  promise of the dynastic succession are unconditional.  This type is found in pure form in the Treaty of Tudkhaliyas  IV and Ulmi-Teshup of Dattassa. It is said that if Ulmi-Teshup is faithful to his covenant with his suzerain, it is the obligation of the suzerain to preserve his heirs on the throne of Dattassa, and to preserve the land in the heirs' possession.

 

  If a future son sins (rebels), he may be punished or removed, but kingship and land must pass to another heir of Ulmi-Teshup, in theory thereby creating an eternal dynasty.  Put another way, it can be said that permanence of dynasty and possession of land rests on the "reservoir of grace" filled by the obedience of Ulmi-Teshup alone, and therefore is not dependent on the fidelity of each succeeding heir--presumably intensifying Ulmi-Teshup's motivation to obedience.

 

  The analogy with the "high" or unconditional royal ideology of the Davidids is obvious. Thanks to the piety of David, the throne is eternally promised to the house of David; thanks to the fidelity of Abraham, the land is promised perpetually to his seed. One suspects that in this unconditional promise to heirs, archaic kinship ideology is at work: the family of the faithful covenant partner is bound forever in kinship bonds with the suzerain, and his family.

 

So, according to Cross, because of the piety of David, the throne is promised to the house of David, and ,thanks to the fidelity of Abraham, the land is promised perpetually to his seed. What's more is that this is a unconditional promise made to the heirs. The family of the faithful covenant partner (both Abraham and David in their respective cases) are bound forever in kinship bonds with the suzerain and his family.

 

It's helpful to recall that in Cross' explanation above that "if a future son sins (rebels), he may be punished or removed, but kingship and land must pass to another heir of Ulmi-Teshup, in theory thereby creating an eternal dynasty." Thus, if a future son sins, such as in a descendent from David, that descendent may be removed or punished, but the throne must pass to another descendent, thereby "creating an eternal dynasty". In Cross' very own words we see how this applies both to the promise land and to the eternal throne of David. The verses that I showed in regards to David "always having a lamp before (Yahweh) in Jerusalem" are precisely what Cross meant when he said that "In the second type, the promise of the land and promise of the dynastic succession are unconditional". In this case the promise of dynastic succession is unconditional due to the fidelity of David.

 

This gives historical insight into both covenants, showing that they were meant to be both unconditional and eternal. This, I hope, is sufficent enough to show any rational person the errancy of the Hebrew Bible and one of many reasons why it's not simply the inerrant, inspired word of Yahweh.

 

I rest my case,

 

Matthew

[liquid ash]

Nicely laid out.

 

Btw, who are Abraham and/or David's direct descendants today?

[Cynical Realist]

Nice work Matthew!

 

I love to see concrete evidence to use. Counter apologetics.

[Matthew]

Cynic,

 

I appreciate your comments. I didn't originate these arguments however. I do find these arguments persuasive but I have read them elsewhere. I would name the source of these arguments but I consider the atheist who constructed these arguments to be a rather dishonorable person these days. But that doesn't mean that the arguments aren't good arguments- contrarily, they are great arguments but I just don't like the source who composed the original study of them.

 

Matthew

[Abiyoyo]

Matthew,

 

Your basic questioning in this "false covenant, failed prophecies" topic are:

 

1)The covenant with Abraham and his desendants .

 

 

Moses was descended from Abraham, and all the Children of Israel. The last populated "count" was around 300k to 400k from the OT. The Children of Israel are Jewish heritage. A descent group is a social group whose members claim common ancestry. How many Jewish descendants are presently alive today, and have already past. Maybe, more than the sands of the sea?

 

2)The covenant with abraham in the claiming of land.

 

Again, originally God didnt give a date or time. In the death of Moses, he was giving the Children of Israel the "guidance" and breif overveiw of the accomplishments that God has done for them. He was sating that they will go and conquer, and that they must not fall into these regions practices, and when the Lord has preveiled againist their enemies, dont fall short in rejoicing and become comfortable and forget God. They did conquer the land throughout the years, I believe through David(Philistines)

 

3) The "throne of the kingdom of Israel through the descendant of David"

 

Well, thats a easy one if you believe the Bible. The Bible clearly states in Matthew that the seed of David was Jesus Christ, and gives the detailed description of the "line" to Jesus. Many disagree with the seed of David being Jesus because of the virginal birth. It states in the Bible through an angel, that Jesus was "He who shall save his people from their sins", from the seed of David.

 

Matt 1:20-21

20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

21 "And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."

(NKJ)

 

This is the word of the angel to them.

 

Luke 1:30-41

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;

40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.

41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

(KJV)

 

The babe that leaped in the womb was John th baptist, he was also viginally concieved to prepare the way for the Lord.

 

Jesus is referred proclaimed the Son of God. (Remeber, Seed of David)

 

 

 

Matt 3:16-17

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

(KJV)

 

Jesus proclaimed the Son of God by God Himself

 

 

 

Luke 1:31-33

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

(KJV)

 

The angels "confirmation" of the Son of the Highest"

John 18:36-38

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.

(KJV)

 

Jesus describing His Kingdom.

[Purple Rhino]

...

  This gives historical insight into both covenants, showing that they were meant to be both unconditional and eternal. This, I hope, is sufficent enough to show any rational person the errancy of the Hebrew Bible and one of many reasons why it's not simply the inerrant, inspired word of Yahweh.

 

  I rest my case,

 

  Matthew

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Matthew,

Thanks for sharing this. It's broken down and laid out in a very easy to follow manner. I found it very interesting.

 

YoYo,

Maybe you didn't read the last line of Matthew's so I quoted in bold above. Because this statement in your reply shows that you are willing to go to any length to retro-fit scripture so that it may resemble some twisted truth.

Again, originally God didnt give a date or time.

I would rather you had come back with something such as:

"The covenant was never notarized, thus invalid"

 

PR

[Matthew]

Matthew,

 

Your basic questioning in this "false covenant, failed prophecies" topic are:

 

1)The covenant with Abraham and his desendants .

Moses was descended from Abraham, and all the Children of Israel. The last populated "count" was around 300k to 400k from the OT. The Children of Israel are Jewish heritage. A descent group is a social group whose members claim common ancestry. How many Jewish descendants are presently alive today, and have already past. Maybe, more than the sands of the sea?

 

2)The covenant with abraham in the claiming of land.

 

Again, originally God didnt give a date or time. In the death of Moses, he was giving the Children of Israel the "guidance" and breif overveiw of the accomplishments that God has done for them. He was sating that they will go and conquer, and that they must not fall into these regions practices, and when the Lord has preveiled againist their enemies, dont fall short in rejoicing and become comfortable and forget God. They did conquer the land throughout the years, I believe through David(Philistines)

 

3) The "throne of the kingdom of Israel through the descendant of David"

 

Well, thats a easy one if you believe the Bible. The Bible clearly states in Matthew that the seed of David was Jesus Christ, and gives the detailed description of the "line" to Jesus. Many disagree with the seed of David being Jesus because of the virginal birth. It states in the Bible through an angel, that Jesus was "He who shall save his people from their sins", from the seed of David.

 

Matt 1:20-21

20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

21 "And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."

(NKJ)

 

This is the word of the angel to them.

 

Luke 1:30-41

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;

40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.

41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

(KJV)

 

The babe that leaped in the womb was John th baptist, he was also viginally concieved to prepare the way for the Lord.

 

Jesus is referred proclaimed the Son of God. (Remeber, Seed of David)

Matt 3:16-17

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

(KJV)

 

Jesus proclaimed the Son of God by God Himself

Luke 1:31-33

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

(KJV)

 

The angels "confirmation" of the Son of the Highest"

John 18:36-38

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.

(KJV)

 

Jesus describing His Kingdom.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yoyo,

 

I am suprised that you are the only Christian who has ever responded to me on this one. But your response is one big non-sequitor! How the hell does anything you say answer the arguments I posted?

 

Matthew

[bluewizard]

Also, I'm not sure in what Jewish book it talks about the Messiah, but the prophecy of the messiah is he will be a convert to Judaism, he will bring all Jews back to Israel, and he will reign as King. According to the NT did Jesus do any of these things? No, he died a loser if he existed. He was born into a Jewish family, he nerver was a man of power, and never brought all Jews back to Israel. I am an atheist but I just proved Christianity wrong and I don't believe in Judiasm either.