Rivers Of Love? No? Well!.... Bitch Please, You Never Were A Christian

[Jake49]

"I wake up every day, and I bask in the embrace of my loving father God. Do you??

 

In my beaten and battered heart, my loving tender Lord smooths his love over my wounds and soothes them. Does God do that with you?

 

I spend time basking in his presence as rivers of love wash over me. Does that happen to you?"

 

 

Ok... I feel really sick now saying that... UUURRRGGGH!! Not that I don't value vulnerability, love, empathy, intimacy and many things... but it's the

way this is put across to me (not in those words... but with that same vibe)... makes me nauseous writing those words... and the context they are used in, I find a bit manipulative....

and I also see it as someone being defensive when they start going at me with this, "there's something wrong with you, because I have this close relationship with God, and you clearly never had that, so your view on Christianity is invalid"...

 

This is the angle that I get from some Christian Pastors and "leaders" I used to be in the same circles/communities as when we start talking about Christianity.

 

Once they realise they have nothing to say to me, because I bring it down to very simple points about love... I get this vibe of a response...

 

That there is and was something wrong with me. That I never really discovered a true "relationship with God" in Christianity which "they have". And they don't just suggest this,

they come at this point with confidence and try and corner me with it, "So when you spent time with God, what did you experience?... Come on??"...

 

They resort to this game... where if I'm not singing about rivers of love and the "warm embrace of my heavenly Lord" (they don't quite use this language, but just to make the point of the vibe they go with). I don't respond to this well, because I have plenty of transcendent experiences to describe (which are not to do with Christianity, but experiences and things I've felt in my life) but I feel like sharing my heart on this will only lead to them pissing on that with the bitterness of their delusion... So if I'm not singing about rivers of love in the embrace of "father God".. then they just assume the position of, "Well, that's INTERESTING Jake.. because I experience that every day through the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ who broke the power of sin and death over my life and set me free to be clothed in his righteousness who I will worship for all eternity in heaven....... but..... you didn't have that right?... hmm... interesting... and you thought you were a Christian before?.... hmmm ok...."...

 

I don't feel anything like threatened by this... I find it really sad... and really shitty psychology...

 

They are basically saying to me, "Bitch please! my relationship with the Lord is fantabulantastic! You clearly have no idea what it is to run in a field with Jesus laughing and playing silly games and giving each other dead legs... I do that every morning before my shower!"

 

Except this is a "pastor" or "Christian leader" who is saying this to me...

 

How do I deal with people like this?

 

If I can not be around them, then I do that.... if I'm in a situation where I can't really avoid being there, I change the subject and focus on something positive we can agree on.... Because otherwise I will end up telling them to go fuck themselves. Which isn't helpful.

 

How do I tolerate this behavior? What are some things that you consider about people who call themselves Christians who behave in ways like this. If you have ever experienced this vibe from people.. of "Well, let me explain YOUR position Jake... You have NOTHING to say that contradicts Christianity because you're not even an ex-Christian.. you were never a Christian like ME in the first place"... (again, not the words they use... but that is the vibe of what they're saying).

 

I don't doubt that they may have times where they experience something transcendent and beautiful through the experience of an environment, some poetry, some music, a meditative state, looking at the sky, the stars.... or even "God" which is still a mystery to me. But they do it in the defense of Christianity and in the context of it being only "Jesus" and part of Christian doctrine to experience this.

 

So that's the vibe of what is being communicated to me.

 

Just wanted to write that out because it's on my mind at times... and see if anyone had any similar experiences or anything to share/add on that...

[Noumena]

I think there is really nothing you can say to them. They seem to be entrenched in "experiencing the Holy Spirit" and....as true Christians, if they deny that it is the "Holy Spirit" they are experiencing they will condemn themselves to eternal hell-fire. They seem to be wrapped up in their Christian "high". And like a drug addict who ditches their contacts and drug buddies to try to stay clean and sober....I'd ditch them and move on with life.

 

To me it's a good sign if a Christian tells me I was never a true Christian.....a really good sign that I've sloughed off that skin of enslavement.

[♦ ficino ♦]

So if I'm not singing bout rivers of love in the embrace of "father God".. then they just assume the position of, "Well, that's INTERESTING Jake.. because I experience that every day through the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ who broke the power of sin and death over my life and set me free to be clothed in his righteousness who I will worship for all eternity in heaven....... but..... you didn't have that right?... hmm... interesting... and you thought you were a Christian before?.... hmmm ok...."...

 

 

Hi Jake, most of the quoted material that you ascribe to these people is religious metaphor. What is the content of the experience, in psychological terms? It sounds as though it's pleasant feelings. So, they have their pleasant feelings, and you have yours.

 

I recall relatively little in the bible about pleasant feelings. There is a lot about correct doctrine and practice. These people have a man-centered Christianity, not a god-centered one. I don't know whether you want to point that out to them... ha hah.

 

BTW are you still in ministry or still in a church? Why do you come in such frequent contact with pastors and church leaders?

[Jake49]

Hi Jake, most of the quoted material that you ascribe to these people is religious metaphor. What is the content of the experience, in psychological terms? It sounds as though it's pleasant feelings. So, they have their pleasant feelings, and you have yours.

 

For me, I have transcendent experiences in music and experiences in life, like seeing the stars.. looking into the milky way... or standing on a mountain looking around... or with people... or seeing creatures and animals and feeling a connection with them and with life..

Music is definitely a biggy for me... anyway, I can go into more detail about all that....... but it's beyond what I would describe as "pleasant feelings" for me... although pleasant feelings does describe it... it's more than that... it's a connection with something beyond what I assume to be constructions I have cognitively developed from my environment growing up... it's in a place of unknown to me.. that I feel I want to explore and understand more of... I feel drawn to a connection.

 

I associate what Albert Einstein said with it,

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."

 

I don't share this with them... because they're not interested in me sharing my experiences... they're interested in reinforcing their own indoctrinated constructions.. and using their transcendent experiences and pleasant experiences to get behind, or use as a foundation to project confidence or reinforce the stability of their constructions made of Christian doctrine as a reality.

 

So I don't really go into the discussion more as though sharing anything is of any interest in the discussion... I just politely move out of the conversation... often with the sense of them feeling victorious and saying, "I like these conversations!" (because of the satisfaction of reinforcing the stability of a construction/delusion) "We'll pick this one up again yea?"... Then I imagine they go home and talk to their partners and say, "Yes honey, I had a good day, I spoke with a young man about his faith today. You know, there is an increase in Christians leaving their faith, the enemy is really up to something. It's just good to know that I'm a child of God... *chew chew*.... Honey??" "Yes dear?".... "Did you burn the chicken again?... this is the second time this week... God provides us with good things like this, and you just waste it by being careless and burning it... I knew you were useless at cooking when I married you, but I spend all day talking to young men who have never felt the love of Jesus, and yet you experience the abundance of Jesus's love every fucking day and you can't even improve your cooking or care about giving your devoted husband a meal.... Listen to me" "Ok dear".. "You should prepare a meal like you are preparing it for Jesus, do you understand?" "Yes dear".. "Ok, now I'm going to watch my favorite show and I want you to prepare me something again, and this time, think about who you are preparing it for"...

 

This is where I see all the, "embrace of my Lord Jesus who saved me from sin and death" goes... Reinforcing the constructions and projecting as much love, grace, hope and compassion as possible..... then someone or something, somewhere later becomes the target of the bitterness and excretion of this mechanically monstrous delusion that is Christianity.

 

Right... I'm really just typing and thinking at the same time here...... so I'm not throwing out things that have been well thought out lol... I may disagree with things I'm saying... I'm just letting it flow a bit... which is why I'm on this forum... sorry if it's all nonsense.

 

So anyway, in my discussion with them, their position with me seems to them to be that of incontestable logic.....

but I have big issues with the abusive nature of Christian doctrine which I can deconstruct and focus on the sickness of it... I just don't want to say words which aren't going to be any good in their journey..... I want to understand all this more... so that I can have the words that are useful in their journey..... if I have no love to give to them... then I don't want to say anything...

that's where I am now anyway..

 

I recall relatively little in the bible about pleasant feelings. There is a lot about correct doctrine and practice. These people have a man-centered Christianity, not a god-centered one. I don't know whether you want to point that out to them... ha hah.

 

BTW are you still in ministry or still in a church? Why do you come in such frequent contact with pastors and church leaders?

 

Ye I like that ....

 

I'm not in a church or in ministry.. I'm not a Christian anymore. I recently moved out to China.

 

When I go back to visit... I have friends who I will see, some who are Christians and I journeyed with for some time... and I will likely find myself in discussions with other Christians who may be around , where it starts with them asking me questions.. and if I answer those questions, people in these conversations will likely start to defend their own "beliefs" by manipulating things I say.

 

I guess every situation is different... and requires different thing.... and if I don't feel I have anything useful to say... I should TRY and just say, "Let's talk about something else".

 

And someone might just say, "just don't be around them"..... but for example, I visit a friend (Christian) who is a great friend and really, we're too busy laughing to start challenging each others "beliefs" and "non beliefs".... But we went to the same church at one point... and if someone else pops by, discussions will start... There's many people who are good friends who I journeyed with... They will want to talk about these things... but for some of them, they will pick up on things like, "Well, you rejected God..."... and try and play on that... and become deaf to reason and logic.. not because they can't understand reason or logic... but because they don't even want to listen to anything anymore.. they will retreat through a mechanism into a place of conscious slumber, and I'm talking to mechanisms then.. not to the person.... and it's the understand of this that I want... so I can talk to the person.. and say something that's of love.

 

Where I'm at now... is I'm just going to avoid the conversation. If I can't understand this (which is not the easiest thing to do in my overthinking head lol )

[2Honest]

So I don't really go into the discussion more as though sharing anything is of any interest in the discussion... I just politely move out of the conversation... often with the sense of them feeling victorious and saying, "I like these conversations!" (because of the satisfaction of reinforcing the stability of a construction/delusion) "We'll pick this one up again yea?"... Then I imagine they go home and talk to their partners and say, "Yes honey, I had a good day, I spoke with a young man about his faith today. You know, there is an increase in Christians leaving their faith, the enemy is really up to something. It's just good to know that I'm a child of God... *chew chew*.... Honey??" "Yes dear?".... "Did you burn the chicken again?... this is the second time this week... God provides us with good things like this, and you just waste it by being careless and burning it... I knew you were useless at cooking when I married you, but I spend all day talking to young men who have never felt the love of Jesus, and yet you experience the abundance of Jesus's love every fucking day and you can't even improve your cooking or care about giving your devoted husband a meal.... Listen to me" "Ok dear".. "You should prepare a meal like you are preparing it for Jesus, do you understand?" "Yes dear".. "Ok, now I'm going to watch my favorite show and I want you to prepare me something again, and this time, think about who you are preparing it for"...

 

"preparing it for Jesus" LOL! This cracked me up. I've imagined many times the conversations our former friends must be having about us. It's so ridiculous.

 

I just don't want to say words which aren't going to be any good in their journey..... I want to understand all this more... so that I can have the words that are useful in their journey..... if I have no love to give to them... then I don't want to say anything...

that's where I am now anyway..

 

I think this is a very healthy way of looking at it. People don't respond well to challenges to their deeply held beliefs. But if that challenge comes from a place of love and concern they are more likely to walk away from the conversation and consider, if only subconsciously, what the person said to them. I think you're on the right track with this.

[MrsRoper]

I just wanna say, I have a river of love for anyone who uses the phrase "bitch please!"

[Jake49]

"preparing it for Jesus" LOL! This cracked me up. I've imagined many times the conversations our former friends must be having about us. It's so ridiculous.

 

yeah I imagine that too.. and even towards the end of Christianity and these "churches" and "communities" for me... I really got an increasing understanding that all the Love, Grace, Care, Empathy.... it's nearly all a show... Projecting this kind of behavior reinforces the perception that a person is adhering well to a structure of values... Which we can see in so many things in the world from fashions to religions, to trends, to cultures... everything from a group of boys or girls in a school saying X, Y, Z is cool... to huge cultures which say X, Y, Z gives you value and worth... It's all external and the change is not inside. It's performance orientation.. and YES, often it is done with sincerity and good intentions... and even honorable and respectable... there is a baby in the bath water.... but I'm just pointing out that all the LOVE that Christianity is supposed to be about, is mostly just a show in Christianity... it's a desperate attempt to reinforce the delusion of Christian doctrine and to some how earn the identity of a "child of God" a "follower of Jesus"...... or at least try and make one self "believe" that.. and of course, other people around oneself, who will in turn interact with those who adhere to the values of Christian doctrine.. and also reinforce that persons delusion by their behavior.

 

I'm probably not making much sense here.. because I'm typing and thinking at the same time. And I don't want to get too negative, judgmental and critical... I have my own stuff lol... but I'm also getting this stuff off my chest a bit and expressing what I observed but in a way, ignored for such a long time.

 

I just don't want to say words which aren't going to be any good in their journey..... I want to understand all this more... so that I can have the words that are useful in their journey..... if I have no love to give to them... then I don't want to say anything...

that's where I am now anyway..

 

I think this is a very healthy way of looking at it. People don't respond well to challenges to their deeply held beliefs. But if that challenge comes from a place of love and concern they are more likely to walk away from the conversation and consider, if only subconsciously, what the person said to them. I think you're on the right track with this.

 

Yes, I see this too... and really, I met people while on my Christian journey who I know treated me this way... didn't push, judge or criticise, but just presented information, which I could think about for myself.

I also came across people, who when I was open minded and ready to learn, they brought loads of harsh criticism, judgement, mockery at the "beliefs" I presented which I clearly demonstrated I was exploring and that's where I was in my journey... and it wasn't helpful to me to be treated like that.

 

But hey, they were hurting too.. and in their blindness mistreated others..... "hurting people hurt people" and all that. So it's all good with that perspective.

 

Like you said... that the challenge comes from a of love and care.. and any confrontational information is presented lovingly and with empathy.

 

In future situations... that may be easier said than done for me.. but this is how I would like to respond.

[Jake49]

I just wanna say, I have a river of love for anyone who uses the phrase "bitch please!"

 

I'm with you there xD I love those little "bitch please" cartoon jokes hehe

[raoul]

"I wake up every day, and I bask in the embrace of my loving father God. Do you??

 

In my beaten and battered heart, my loving tender Lord smooths his love over my wounds and soothes them. Does God do that with you?

 

I spend time basking in his presence as rivers of love wash over me. Does that happen to you?"

 

 

Ok... I feel really sick now saying that... UUURRRGGGH!! Not that I don't value vulnerability, love, empathy, intimacy and many things... but it's the

way this is put across to me (not in those words... but with that same vibe)... makes me nauseous writing those words... and the context they are used in, I find a bit manipulative....

and I also see it as someone being defensive when they start going at me with this, "there's something wrong with you, because I have this close relationship with God, and you clearly never had that, so your view on Christianity is invalid"...

 

This is the angle that I get from some Christian Pastors and "leaders" I used to be in the same circles/communities as when we start talking about Christianity.

 

Once they realise they have nothing to say to me, because I bring it down to very simple points about love... I get this vibe of a response...

 

That there is and was something wrong with me. That I never really discovered a true "relationship with God" in Christianity which "they have". And they don't just suggest this,

they come at this point with confidence and try and corner me with it, "So when you spent time with God, what did you experience?... Come on??"...

 

They resort to this game... where if I'm not singing about rivers of love and the "warm embrace of my heavenly Lord" (they don't quite use this language, but just to make the point of the vibe they go with). I don't respond to this well, because I have plenty of transcendent experiences to describe (which are not to do with Christianity, but experiences and things I've felt in my life) but I feel like sharing my heart on this will only lead to them pissing on that with the bitterness of their delusion... So if I'm not singing about rivers of love in the embrace of "father God".. then they just assume the position of, "Well, that's INTERESTING Jake.. because I experience that every day through the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ who broke the power of sin and death over my life and set me free to be clothed in his righteousness who I will worship for all eternity in heaven....... but..... you didn't have that right?... hmm... interesting... and you thought you were a Christian before?.... hmmm ok...."...

 

I don't feel anything like threatened by this... I find it really sad... and really shitty psychology...

 

They are basically saying to me, "Bitch please! my relationship with the Lord is fantabulantastic! You clearly have no idea what it is to run in a field with Jesus laughing and playing silly games and giving each other dead legs... I do that every morning before my shower!"

 

Except this is a "pastor" or "Christian leader" who is saying this to me...

 

How do I deal with people like this?

 

If I can not be around them, then I do that.... if I'm in a situation where I can't really avoid being there, I change the subject and focus on something positive we can agree on.... Because otherwise I will end up telling them to go fuck themselves. Which isn't helpful.

 

How do I tolerate this behavior? What are some things that you consider about people who call themselves Christians who behave in ways like this. If you have ever experienced this vibe from people.. of "Well, let me explain YOUR position Jake... You have NOTHING to say that contradicts Christianity because you're not even an ex-Christian.. you were never a Christian like ME in the first place"... (again, not the words they use... but that is the vibe of what they're saying).

 

I don't doubt that they may have times where they experience something transcendent and beautiful through the experience of an environment, some poetry, some music, a meditative state, looking at the sky, the stars.... or even "God" which is still a mystery to me. But they do it in the defense of Christianity and in the context of it being only "Jesus" and part of Christian doctrine to experience this.

 

So that's the vibe of what is being communicated to me.

 

Just wanted to write that out because it's on my mind at times... and see if anyone had any similar experiences or anything to share/add on that...

Has anyone had similar experiences you ask. Probably most of us including me. That insipid 'God loves you' comes right from blindly quoting bible verses as you probably know. My wake up call about this came a few years ago when I'd read this horrible news story regarding a mother killing her two small kids by drowning them in a car which she pushed into a pond of some kind. The same day I read that some xtian was on the radio praising God about how great he is. I just couldn't connect the dots so to speak and finally gave up on the love part back then. I should have done this decades before that because my experiences in life showed just the opposite regarding his alleged love.

[Jake49]

Has anyone had similar experiences you ask. Probably most of us including me. That insipid 'God loves you' comes right from blindly quoting bible verses as you probably know. My wake up call about this came a few years ago when I'd read this horrible news story regarding a mother killing her two small kids by drowning them in a car which she pushed into a pond of some kind. The same day I read that some xtian was on the radio praising God about how great he is. I just couldn't connect the dots so to speak and finally gave up on the love part back then. I should have done this decades before that because my experiences in life showed just the opposite regarding his alleged love.

 

I like that... when you say, "I couldn't connect the dots"... I really relate with that. The more I think about so many things in Christianity.. it's not even like "peeling back the layers"...... the layers just fall away to reveal something that makes no sense. 38,000 children die every day of starvation.... This is TODAY... 2000 years after heaven dispatched the "ultimate solution" to spare humanity from hell. So when "Jesus" this "savior" born in primitive Palestine 2000 years ago came and said, "IT IS DONE!"....... he didn't have in mind the billions of people who have dies since then.. in anguish, pain and suffering?

 

Like you said... the dots can't be connected... it makes no sense!