atkegar Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 From what I can see, the spectrum goes as follows: 1) Strong theist (one who believes there is one or more God(s) and or Goddess(es), or some kind of Divine Force, or "Ground of All Being", etc, to use legal term "beyond a reasonable doubt"). I would think that most Christians are here, and until a about a year ago or so, I was there. 2) Weak theist (that is more likely than not there is God) 3) Weak non-theist (more likely than not there is no God) 4) Strong non-theist (beyond a reasonable doubt there is no God). Right now, I would definately say that I am in camp 3 right now, but would love to move to camp 4. From those who are in camp 4, what suggestions would one give to convince me to move from 3 to 4? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 If by God you mean the God of the Bible, I am actually a number 5: I have no doubts that the God of the Bible does not exist. As for some vague notion of a divine being, I am somewhere between 2 and 3, so I'll call it 2A: not sure one way or the other (and really don't care). If you are concerned about the God of the Bible and want to get a stronger view, then my advice is to study the Bible carefully and look at the alleged attributes of that god as set forth in the Bible. In the Bible, he both created evil and he did not create evil, he is just yet he ordered the genocide of entire populations, he is all powerful and knows everything yet he must test people to see how they will act in certain situations. I could go on and on. These are incompatible attributes and, therefore, such a deity simply cannot exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atkegar Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 As for "God", I meant it in any form, whether the God of the Bible, some other God(s) and/or Goddess(es), or even some vague notion of divine If by God you mean the God of the Bible, I am actually a number 5: I have no doubts that the God of the Bible does not exist. As for some vague notion of a divine being, I am somewhere between 2 and 3, so I'll call it 2A: not sure one way or the other (and really don't care). I was referring to any type of divine being (or even "force" etc). Not just the Christian God. I have no doubt about the existance of "the man upstairs" type of God, which I do not believe in at all. If you are concerned about the God of the Bible and want to get a stronger view, then my advice is to study the Bible carefully and look at the alleged attributes of that god as set forth in the Bible. In the Bible, he both created evil and he did not create evil, he is just yet he ordered the genocide of entire populations, he is all powerful and knows everything yet he must test people to see how they will act in certain situations. I could go on and on. These are incompatible attributes and, therefore, such a deity simply cannot exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atkegar Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 As for "God", I meant it in any form, whether the God of the Bible, some other God(s) and/or Goddess(es), or even some vague notion of divine If by God you mean the God of the Bible, I am actually a number 5: I have no doubts that the God of the Bible does not exist. As for some vague notion of a divine being, I am somewhere between 2 and 3, so I'll call it 2A: not sure one way or the other (and really don't care). I was referring to any type of divine being (or even "force" etc). Not just the Christian God. I have no doubt about the existance of "the man upstairs" type of God, which I do not believe in at all. If you are concerned about the God of the Bible and want to get a stronger view, then my advice is to study the Bible carefully and look at the alleged attributes of that god as set forth in the Bible. In the Bible, he both created evil and he did not create evil, he is just yet he ordered the genocide of entire populations, he is all powerful and knows everything yet he must test people to see how they will act in certain situations. I could go on and on. These are incompatible attributes and, therefore, such a deity simply cannot exist. The portion above in bold was my addition to Overcame Faith's post. I am learing the ins and outs of the quote system. Sorry for any confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 As for "God", I meant it in any form, whether the God of the Bible, some other God(s) and/or Goddess(es), or even some vague notion of divine If by God you mean the God of the Bible, I am actually a number 5: I have no doubts that the God of the Bible does not exist. As for some vague notion of a divine being, I am somewhere between 2 and 3, so I'll call it 2A: not sure one way or the other (and really don't care). I was referring to any type of divine being (or even "force" etc). Not just the Christian God. I have no doubt about the existance of "the man upstairs" type of God, which I do not believe in at all. If you are concerned about the God of the Bible and want to get a stronger view, then my advice is to study the Bible carefully and look at the alleged attributes of that god as set forth in the Bible. In the Bible, he both created evil and he did not create evil, he is just yet he ordered the genocide of entire populations, he is all powerful and knows everything yet he must test people to see how they will act in certain situations. I could go on and on. These are incompatible attributes and, therefore, such a deity simply cannot exist. The portion above in bold was my addition to Overcame Faith's post. I am learing the ins and outs of the quote system. Sorry for any confusion. Excellent, then you are in a real good position. As for those other possible deities, I just don't think about them. If there are any, then the burden of proof for their existence rests with them and not with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tothemorning Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Good contemplation. I find myself thinking that there could be a creator...but it certainly could not be the bible guy or any other book penned by men. My search continues...and for some reason I don't think it is going to end until I am dead. For now I will keep giving mother earth my respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 From what I can see, the spectrum goes as follows: 1) Strong theist (one who believes there is one or more God(s) and or Goddess(es), or some kind of Divine Force, or "Ground of All Being", etc, to use legal term "beyond a reasonable doubt"). I would think that most Christians are here, and until a about a year ago or so, I was there. 2) Weak theist (that is more likely than not there is God) 3) Weak non-theist (more likely than not there is no God) 4) Strong non-theist (beyond a reasonable doubt there is no God). Right now, I would definately say that I am in camp 3 right now, but would love to move to camp 4. From those who are in camp 4, what suggestions would one give to convince me to move from 3 to 4? Are you asking for the purposes of discussion? Or are you actually wanting to move from 3 to 4? If you're wanting to move to 4, then you are probably already there but still holding on to weak non-theism for some reason. For me, the convincer that took me past 3 to 4 was that there was no need for a god as an explanation for things in the universe. Reports of changed lives or personal miracles or the beginning of the universe had other, more this-worldy explanations than a god or angels or intervening saviors or saints. For what exactly, knowing what we already know about the universe, do we need a god? Sure, there is plenty we don't know. But what are the odds that a god will turn up to be the explanation for anything in this reality? That was what took me from 3 to 4. But I wouldn't seek to move up or down on the spectrum intentionally. Just continue to learn, experience and reflect on what you have encountered. You will , sooner or later, realize how you have changed and where you stand on the issue of theism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Right now, I would definately say that I am in camp 3 right now, but would love to move to camp 4. From those who are in camp 4, what suggestions would one give to convince me to move from 3 to 4? How did you move from one "camp" to the next before? That's how you might imagine getting from 3 to 4 if that's something you actually do. I'm pretty with Oddbird on this overall. But as to how I personally made the move? I just woke up here one day. I didn't sit around looking to be convinced that there just simply no god(s) and that was that. Apparently all the information I took in gelled and I realized that there just weren't any god(s). What worked for me may convince you of something different (and I really have no idea what "worked" for me since I can imagine it was a lot of information altogether). So just keep looking around like most everyone here does. Maybe you'll make the move (many of us do) or you won't. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted June 22, 2012 Super Moderator Share Posted June 22, 2012 From those who are in camp 4, what suggestions would one give to convince me to move from 3 to 4? Why do you want to move? Why should anyone try to convince you of what to believe? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wester Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 I think a big factor is social group orientation. Despite our best efforts, humans like the safety and security of groups. Theism is far and away the dominant group orientation in the West and Islam. You can look at it from the perspective of changing your group orientation from a strong socially reinforced group to a weaker socially reinforced group. From where I came from the last proposition is much more terrifying for most people and they will resist it at all costs. Remember Plato's allegory of the cave. I was more or less forced into this later category because of my diet and political orientation and interest in the philosophies of Martin Luther King, Jr. and Malcolm X while growing up in a lily white republican-party-is-jesus society. At first I was depressed as hell and self-medicated and tried to tune it all out to no avail at all. Now I prefer to see it as going to work for the resistance or the rebellion against the empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunaticheathen Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Hehe, I'm actually 1. I just differ from Christians in that I don't give a shit what other people think or believe - oh, and I don't believe in Abraham's god. With that god, I suppose I'm 3. Though I don't think much about it, I've just never encountered Abraham's god. I believe my experiences, and they have been powerful - hence why I believe in the gods I've encountered. I might be the only one around here like that. From those who are in camp 4, what suggestions would one give to convince me to move from 3 to 4? Why do you want to move? Why should anyone try to convince you of what to believe? And this. This is so true, and how I live my life, within my belief, and encountering the beliefs of others. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FeelHappy Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 I think there are far more terms than those. The term god needs a more precise definition. Theistic gods are personal, present and active, but you could have the others such as pantheistic, panenthistic, deistic, etc, so rejecting theistic gods doesn't mean one rejects all gods. So I highly doubt the existence of a personal god who cares one bit what I do, I'm completely unsure and agnostic about other deities which may or may not exist. As someone else said, I'm almost certain that any deity which mankind thinks he knows the name of does not exist. I extend this to all religions I know anything about. That doesn't mean though that I have any certainty about a god/spiritual force or unknown uncaring deity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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