Just Admit It

[Kurari]

I wish Christians would just tell the truth that they are scared witless by this horrific deity, and they worshiping it only because they are completely terrified not to. It'd be a refreshing honesty that I'd welcome if I heard it. It's understandable that you'd be scared of this monster deity who created a place like Hell. Most of us have been there and know what it feels like.

 

I suppose I'm just fed up with Christians trying to sell me the idea that this god is "loving" and actually gives a damn about us. The Bible itself says otherwise. You could say it was out of love that He sent his Son to us, but really? Sending your own kid to be a tortured blood sacrifice isn't an act of love. It's horrific and frightening. And even after Jesus's death and resurrection, what does it accomplish? Oh, your sins are washed clean? Big deal. You're still forever walking a fine line between His favor and conditional love even if you believe in Jesus. You're still going to be "tested" from time to time. You're still at risk of Hell if you don't follow the rules and repent.

 

It can't be both ways. Inevitably whenever I get into a discussion with a Christian who is trying to cajole me with the usual spiel about how much better my life will be once I know "Gods love" and it doesn't work, they revert instantly to the scare tactics about what God will DO to me if I don't accept submitting myself to worship.

 

If this deity can't master basic human moral concepts in spite of designing us in His image, then you can't base a moral life off this thing or sell anybody else on the idea that this deity is loving. You're not worshiping because the deity deserves worship, you're worshiping because the alternative is too horrific NOT to go through the motions.

 

Christianity is ultimately a position of cowardice.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Right on, Kurari. You ought to write, I certainly won't say a Chick Tract, but maybe a Duckling Tract?

[GardenerGal]

well said

[raoul]

 

I wish Christians would just tell the truth that they are scared witless by this horrific deity, and they worshiping it only because they are completely terrified not to. It'd be a refreshing honesty that I'd welcome if I heard it. It's understandable that you'd be scared of this monster deity who created a place like Hell. Most of us have been there and know what it feels like.

 

I suppose I'm just fed up with Christians trying to sell me the idea that this god is "loving" and actually gives a damn about us. The Bible itself says otherwise. You could say it was out of love that He sent his Son to us, but really? Sending your own kid to be a tortured blood sacrifice isn't an act of love. It's horrific and frightening. And even after Jesus's death and resurrection, what does it accomplish? Oh, your sins are washed clean? Big deal. You're still forever walking a fine line between His favor and conditional love even if you believe in Jesus. You're still going to be "tested" from time to time. You're still at risk of Hell if you don't follow the rules and repent.

 

It can't be both ways. Inevitably whenever I get into a discussion with a Christian who is trying to cajole me with the usual spiel about how much better my life will be once I know "Gods love" and it doesn't work, they revert instantly to the scare tactics about what God will DO to me if I don't accept submitting myself to worship.

 

If this deity can't master basic human moral concepts in spite of designing us in His image, then you can't base a moral life off this thing or sell anybody else on the idea that this deity is loving. You're not worshiping because the deity deserves worship, you're worshiping because the alternative is too horrific NOT to go through the motions.

 

Christianity is ultimately a position of cowardice.

 

I was just reading in Samuel, OT, about how Saul was almost instaneously rejected by God for committing a very minor infraction - at least in my view. Back when I was a xtian I'd read something like that in the OT and just pooh pooh it away since I was looking at the deity with rose collared glasses. But now, during this deconversion process I'm going through the very same biblical texts nauseate me and even tick me off because the glasses are off and I can see it for what it really is - a system designed to scare the crap out of everyone. The 'god loves you' phrase makes me wanna throw up.

[Akheia]

All I know is this: when I was fundie, and had those inevitable Rapture scares (they're sort of like pregnancy scares, you see) where I was convinced that I'd been "left behind," I wasn't devastated that I wasn't in Heaven snuggling with Boyfriend!Jesus.

 

I was terrified that I was going to hell.

[roadrunner]

as dan barker says, it solves a problem that it created on it own leaving no one immune. and any system that has to recruit based on the threat of physical harm is morally bankrupt.

 

You were created broken, born into original sin as a result of events long before you were here . Dont worry though, the debt has already been paid for you long before you were here. you can accept it and go to heaven forever or ignore this and burn in hell forever, you choose. WTF How id i ever fall for that crap.

 

google dan barker's "you cant win with original sin" he sings it in the losing faith in faith lecture. its awesome.

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

God was still mad at Saul (I think it was Saul) for sparing some of among the Amalekites, because he wouldn't kill every man, woman, child, and animal like god told him to. Genocide, according to the Bible, is good, when the divine orders it. Indeed, its bad/evil when you don't commit genocide/murder when God tells you to, according to the Bible. Which is among many reasons the Bible is morally bankrupt.

[Suzy]

I agree 100% with the OP! Very well said. Christians say they are in because they love God but I can't get my head around how someone can love such an evil tyrant, such a capricious bastard. Really? You can love someone who did all the things those are written in the Bible? That tells a lot about any person who genuinely loves him! They might as well as love Hitler, Stalin etc. Either that or they just choose to ignore those parts (most Christians, I guess).

 

When I was a Christian, of course I did not admit it to myself that I don't and cannot like, let alone love this God and that the real reason why I hang on for so long was the fear of hell. I think that is the case for many, many Christians - and it shows when they try to evangelize with the threat of hell. That just shows their fears and their motives to be in Xtianity, if they think it's a good way to win people! So any time a Christian threatens with hell I can only feel pity for him/her.

 

There are Christian denominations though who don't emphasize hell that much or don't even believe in it, so it's not true for all Christians that the reason they are in is because of fear of hell. Some are in because of the promise of eternal life, the promise to see your passed love ones after you die and other such selfish reasons. I mean it's an incredibly selfish religion when you think of it! You do good to collect brownie points in heaven for yourself. You worship God to have an eternal life for yourself. You worship Jesus because he saved you. But in exchange for supposedly doing good for you, you ignore all the genocides, massacres , tyranny in the Bible, all the evil things God did to many others - well, to most of mankind! God is good because he saved me. Fuck the rest! And all the good he supposedly did for you aren't without conditions either. You will have to be God's little slave forever, a mindless worship robot.

 

So yeah, Christianity is the religion of either cowardiance or selfishness.

[Margee]

I grew up in the United Church and up until I was 20 years old, I had a very 'frilly' picture of jesus in my head. All I knew was that he loved everyone in the world. I didn't really know I was born in sin? They didn't preach that in the United church. I was so innocent back then. Every christmas we would sing all these wonderful songs of jesus being born in a manger.. Just nice memories...... (I still tear up when I hear those x-mas carols)

 

Then I went to a Pentacostal church one night ( for fun - that's the truth!) that preached an hour long sermon on hell. I can still remember that night as if it were yesterday. My whole life changed that night and little did I know...it would be the beginning of true dysfunction for me.......

 

The fear of hell brought me to the alter - not the love of god. I was to learn that night that I owed jesus a big 'thank you' for dying on the cross for my filthy sins...I lived in 35 years of fear because of that one night.

 

I never lost the fear of hell because I never lost the ability to quit 'sinning' 100% and I knew someday I would have to face the lord with this. I was a lukewarm christian (according to the sermons) and could never seem to get it right.

 

My whole life has been ruled by fear.

 

Not anymore! Fear seems to be dropping away? Yesterday, I rode in an elevator at least 6 times all by myself...... this is huge for me. As I am losing the fear of facing god in an afterlife, I seem to be losing other fears along with it?? Weird!? I don't understand it...all I know is that I rode an elevator all by myself and I can't believe it?? I actually started dancing all by myself in this elevator!! This fear of elevators has stopped me from so many things in life.......

 

Fear is a terrible way to live. I'm tired of it. I want to know peace before I die. The concept of heaven and hell is a terrible story to grow up with. I wish I had never gone to that church that one night......

[Guest wester]

Their god is loving in the same way a BDSM abuse relationship is loving.

My mom lives in outright utter absolute terror every moment of every day that she won't make the cut into heaven and behaves as if there is a CCTV camera following her everywhere. Since she hooked up with her recent mind-control groupthinc fundy church she says she loves me but it sounds more like a threat or ploy at emotional blackmail to fetch a few extra brownie points for the CCTV feed and the ultimate judgement before the angry and wrathful authorities, personal and familial relations be damned.

 

Go puke.

[Margee]

google dan barker's "you cant win with original sin" he sings it in the losing faith in faith lecture. its awesome.

 

Thanks rr! http://www.secularsi...euk.com/FNA.htm

 

You Can't Win With Original Sin

 

You can't win! You can't win with Original Sin.

 

It doesn't even matter how intelligent or kind you may have been. You just can't win.

 

It was all over before it began

 

You were doomed in the fall of man. You can't win.

 

 

I was dead-I was dead before my life had begun.

 

I was dead, because of something my great-great-great grandparents had done.

 

Adam and Eve didn't do any wrong

 

They were set up by God all along. They couldn't win.

 

 

I've been told I must believe on Jesus Christ to be saved;

 

But first, I must admit that I am totally depraved.

 

Before you go pointing that finger of blame,

 

Just remember that Eve Was Framed! She couldn't win.

 

 

The kind of God who's so insecure that he needs to send me to hell

 

Is the kind of God who'd probably get a kick out of damning all the Christians as well!

 

 

It was all over before it began -

 

I was doomed in the fall of man.

 

But as a skeptic I must insist,

 

Adam and Eve didn't really exist,

 

And neither does God, then, for that matter,

 

And until the day that old myth is shattered,

 

We can't win. No, we just can't win.

[Akheia]

We're not saying that BDSM is abusive, right? Just checkin' What's weird is now that I think of it, the few 24/7 BDSM couples I've known seemed a lot more balanced and supportive of each other than any of the fundie couples I've known. How funny!

 

Wester, I know it has got to be painful and difficult to watch someone you love go through something that evil and wretched. I join you in the hope that she'll wake up soon.

 

Margee - that is so cool about the elevator! What is your dream goal now? The Eiffel Tower? Wow, I'd love to go up that...

[raoul]

God was still mad at Saul (I think it was Saul) for sparing some of among the Amalekites, because he wouldn't kill every man, woman, child, and animal like god told him to. Genocide, according to the Bible, is good, when the divine orders it. Indeed, its bad/evil when you don't commit genocide/murder when God tells you to, according to the Bible. Which is among many reasons the Bible is morally bankrupt.

It was the animal part you're referring to. He wiped out all of the humans including kids and most of the animals. But he kept some of the animals in order to sacrifice them to this 'loving god' person. When Samuel found out about it, he had a hissy fit. But he'd threatened Saul before this when the Philistines were massing for a battle with Israel. Saul was supposed to wait for the prophet to show up for the rituals to be carried out. Saul waiting 5 days but Samuel didn't show up. So, seeing that the enemy was gonna attack pretty soon, Saul took it upon himself to conduct the rituals. Naturally, as soon as he'd finished, Samuel shows up. Maybe it was one of those 'tests' the loving god sends us eh? Anyway, the prophet goes beserk and tells Saul his legagy ends there. I think it all boiled down to a contest of wills between the 2 but I've always indentified with Saul. God couldn't wait for him to screw, no matter how minor, to dump him and put the wife stealing David on the throne.

[Spectrox]

I wish Christians would just tell the truth that they are scared witless by this horrific deity, and they worshiping it only because they are completely terrified not to. It'd be a refreshing honesty that I'd welcome if I heard it. It's understandable that you'd be scared of this monster deity who created a place like Hell. Most of us have been there and know what it feels like.

 

I suppose I'm just fed up with Christians trying to sell me the idea that this god is "loving" and actually gives a damn about us. The Bible itself says otherwise. You could say it was out of love that He sent his Son to us, but really? Sending your own kid to be a tortured blood sacrifice isn't an act of love. It's horrific and frightening. And even after Jesus's death and resurrection, what does it accomplish? Oh, your sins are washed clean? Big deal. You're still forever walking a fine line between His favor and conditional love even if you believe in Jesus. You're still going to be "tested" from time to time. You're still at risk of Hell if you don't follow the rules and repent.

 

It can't be both ways. Inevitably whenever I get into a discussion with a Christian who is trying to cajole me with the usual spiel about how much better my life will be once I know "Gods love" and it doesn't work, they revert instantly to the scare tactics about what God will DO to me if I don't accept submitting myself to worship.

 

If this deity can't master basic human moral concepts in spite of designing us in His image, then you can't base a moral life off this thing or sell anybody else on the idea that this deity is loving. You're not worshiping because the deity deserves worship, you're worshiping because the alternative is too horrific NOT to go through the motions.

 

Christianity is ultimately a position of cowardice.

 

THIS!!!!!!!!!

[raoul]

 

I wish Christians would just tell the truth that they are scared witless by this horrific deity, and they worshiping it only because they are completely terrified not to. It'd be a refreshing honesty that I'd welcome if I heard it. It's understandable that you'd be scared of this monster deity who created a place like Hell. Most of us have been there and know what it feels like.

 

I suppose I'm just fed up with Christians trying to sell me the idea that this god is "loving" and actually gives a damn about us. The Bible itself says otherwise. You could say it was out of love that He sent his Son to us, but really? Sending your own kid to be a tortured blood sacrifice isn't an act of love. It's horrific and frightening. And even after Jesus's death and resurrection, what does it accomplish? Oh, your sins are washed clean? Big deal. You're still forever walking a fine line between His favor and conditional love even if you believe in Jesus. You're still going to be "tested" from time to time. You're still at risk of Hell if you don't follow the rules and repent.

 

It can't be both ways. Inevitably whenever I get into a discussion with a Christian who is trying to cajole me with the usual spiel about how much better my life will be once I know "Gods love" and it doesn't work, they revert instantly to the scare tactics about what God will DO to me if I don't accept submitting myself to worship.

 

If this deity can't master basic human moral concepts in spite of designing us in His image, then you can't base a moral life off this thing or sell anybody else on the idea that this deity is loving. You're not worshiping because the deity deserves worship, you're worshiping because the alternative is too horrific NOT to go through the motions.

 

Christianity is ultimately a position of cowardice.

 

THIS!!!!!!!!!

 

Excellent point regarding cowardice. In addition I believe it's a total embrace of nihilism. Deny everything around you and keep your head firmly planted up your behind. Reject everything 'worldly' in order to be rewarded with something as elusive as catching air with your hand.

[Kurari]

I grew up in the United Church and up until I was 20 years old, I had a very 'frilly' picture of jesus in my head. All I knew was that he loved everyone in the world. I didn't really know I was born in sin? They didn't preach that in the United church. I was so innocent back then. Every christmas we would sing all these wonderful songs of jesus being born in a manger.. Just nice memories...... (I still tear up when I hear those x-mas carols)

 

Then I went to a Pentacostal church one night ( for fun - that's the truth!) that preached an hour long sermon on hell. I can still remember that night as if it were yesterday. My whole life changed that night and little did I know...it would be the beginning of true dysfunction for me.......

 

The fear of hell brought me to the alter - not the love of god. I was to learn that night that I owed jesus a big 'thank you' for dying on the cross for my filthy sins...I lived in 35 years of fear because of that one night.

 

I never lost the fear of hell because I never lost the ability to quit 'sinning' 100% and I knew someday I would have to face the lord with this. I was a lukewarm christian (according to the sermons) and could never seem to get it right.

 

My whole life has been ruled by fear.

 

Not anymore! Fear seems to be dropping away? Yesterday, I rode in an elevator at least 6 times all by myself...... this is huge for me. As I am losing the fear of facing god in an afterlife, I seem to be losing other fears along with it?? Weird!? I don't understand it...all I know is that I rode an elevator all by myself and I can't believe it?? I actually started dancing all by myself in this elevator!! This fear of elevators has stopped me from so many things in life.......

 

Fear is a terrible way to live. I'm tired of it. I want to know peace before I die. The concept of heaven and hell is a terrible story to grow up with. I wish I had never gone to that church that one night......

 

Oh wow, Margee! I had a terrible fear of elevators for many years myself that took a really long time for me to get over. I know how horrible it is feeling like such a freak about something like that and being prevented from doing things because the only way through is through an elevator. So I have to give you a HUGE congratulations for overcoming this! You're really incredible.