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I submitted this to the main blog, but wan't to post it in here for discussion.

 

 

I had a conversation with a Jehovahs Witness (JW does not stand for that by the way).

It was mind blowing. I listened and tip toed my way into subjects of the bible. I have read the bible cover to cover maybe five times. I used to drive around listening to it too, so I am pretty familiar and don't expect any surprises.

 

Wrong-- This little girl blew my mind.

 

I steered towards death-- expecting hell, damnation, heaven, more bullshit-- the usual.

 

Nope.

 

She said-- "You want to know what happens to our loved ones. It's sad I tell you. Very sad."

 

Ah ha! Got you bitch! I thought.. I didn't show it though. Im always checking my tone because Im more careful with other peoples beliefs now. I try to be respectful.

 

She ran off and borrowed a bible from one of the inmates. Oh yeah, I work in prison. Small details-- The condemned are always religious. I don't know-- they just are.

 

She comes running back with flopping bible in hand. She flips it to Ecclesiates 9 5-6

 

5 For the living know that they will die,

but the dead know nothing;

they have no further reward,

and even their name is forgotten.

6 Their love, their hate

and their jealousy have long since vanished;

never again will they have a part

in anything that happens under the sun.

 

 

"When they die, thats it." She says in that innocent, cheerful, disgusting way. You know the one Im talking about. The one that says its really fucked up but god said so.

 

I was thunderstruck. Speechless.

 

Sure I could attack the bible and give her an ear raping she would never forget. Im pretty knowledgable. But I never saw it in that light and wanted to explore more.

 

Apparently they don't believe in tithing either. They just give what they can.

 

But the death thing rocked me. I asked her if there was a hell. She said, "No. Hell was just destruction. You are no more."

 

I asked her about heaven. She said "This life is what we have."

 

I asked why we should follow commandments. She said, "For the hope of resurrection."

 

It was truly bizarre. It left me in a shitty mood the rest of the day. Then I realized that the whole premise only makes sense when the bible is given the authority it does not have. We all know the arguments-- The Council of Nicaea, talking snakes, people that live 900 years, a 6000 year earth, inconstancies, contradictions, vagueness, bullshit, and more bullshit.

 

I guess I found it most upsetting because it side stepped my biggest objection-- eternal life. Then I realized that she could only do that by side stepping many other things in the bible.

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She's in a vastly minority position.

 

Yea, thats one of your first indication the idea has nothing to do with scripture but is of human fabrication. Of course the whole thing is of fabrication but this is how cults start, a minority breaks off.

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"I would rather have a dreamless sleep, than eternal suffering in hell or eternal boredom in heaven."- Issac Asimov

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So, if hell was your major objection, does the JW's spin remove the obstacles to Christianity for you? If not, then I would focus on that with her. That they remove that objectionable view, what is it about them that still sucks, regardless of that?

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One good place to start would be looking at what they believe about the end times. IIRC the whole JW cult started with a "prophet" that had a new revelation on the end times.

 

I was once locked up with a Jehova's Witness for a couple of months. Most annoying jackass I have ever met in my life, and the only person in the whole jail that I almost got into a fight with.

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So, if hell was your major objection, does the JW's spin remove the obstacles to Christianity for you? If not, then I would focus on that with her. That they remove that objectionable view, what is it about them that still sucks, regardless of that?

 

Im not sure Antler. It turned Christianity on its head for me. Initially I turned from Christianity when asked to write a paper describing whether or not I would like to live forever. I realized that I didn't. Not that I want to die or anything-- but I intuitively know that all things run through there course and must end. Not to do so seems perverse to me. I also thought that any god that would force someone to live forever against their will and punish with hell is not good at all. That is the closest definition of evil I could ever think of.

 

The whole prospect she proposed disturbed me. Now that Im free of a god, I don't want one.

 

It was such a unique spin that I had to share it.

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Steve Jobs is quoted in the new biography of him as saying that he thought of death as a light switch. Switch on/ switch off. He said that's why he avoided putting such switches on Apple products.

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ive heard that argument before from a former co-worker. He said that when you die thats it you go in the dirt. Only when christ comes back will people rise up and live again. Funny thing is the same bible that supports that thought process also supports several other contrary beliefs.

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Kahlil Gibran, my favourite poet, has this to say. I wish I was taught him at school. I don't believe a word of it although his use of the G-word is more metaphorical than religious. But his command of language and imagery is fantastic.

 

 

"Your fear of death is but the trembling of the shepherd when he stands before the king whose hand is to be laid upon him in honor. Is the shepherd not joyful beneath his trembling, that he shall wear the mark of the king? Yet is he not more mindful of his trembling?

For what is it to die but to stand naked in the wind and to melt into the sun? And what is it to cease breathing, but to free the breath from its restless tides, that it may rise and expand and seek God unencumbered?

Only when you drink from the river of silence shall you indeed sing. And when you have reached the mountain top, then you shall begin to climb. And when the earth shall claim your limbs, then shall you truly dance."

 

The Prophet - Kahlil Gibran

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Anyone who has been under surgical anaesthesia knows exactly what it's like being dead. The only difference between death and forced chemical unconsciousness is that forced chemical unconsciousness is a temporary situation.

 

I'd say "temporary experience," but the fact is, you have no experience when you're unconscious. There's nothing to experience with when the conscious mind is gone.

 

As creatures who have only our conscious mind to relate to our experience of the world, there's a tendency to assign consciousness to things that clearly have none... including our dead friends and relatives. We'd like to think (although we're sure that whatever made them them is gone) about our loved ones going about their business; living their dead lives, fully conscious of what's happening to them, because the only experience we have of being human is being conscious and it's very hard to stop thinking that way.

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Oh, I was one of them for many years. They do think you lay on the grave until Jesus returns. My parents funerals both had a witness giving his trstimony about that. Only 144K go immediately to heaven. When Jesus returns, all the dead will rise up and be the meek that inherit the earth for 1000 years. No limit of number of people there. But after 1000 years, Jesus will test us. He will let the Devil have his way with us for a short time, and many will fall into the lake of fire.

 

If you are a Hitler type, you don't go to hell til Jesus returns, and he personally sends that kind to hell. Along with little old ladies who ran the Jehovah Witnesses off her porch. She had her chance, and she is doomed to be in hell with Satan, hitler and all the other really mean people.

 

The Witnesses work very hard to learn the Bible. It was them who taught me so much about the Bible when i was youmg, more than any other religion.

 

But in so teaching me, I also could read enough to know the whole thing is a tribal story made into a god because they did not know what caused storms or earthquakes. I would enjoy a discussion with other witnesses here on this x-xian site. Anyone else here a former witness at any time in your life?

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Anyone who has been under surgical anaesthesia knows exactly what it's like being dead. The only difference between death and forced chemical unconsciousness is that forced chemical unconsciousness is a temporary situation.

 

I'd say "temporary experience," but the fact is, you have no experience when you're unconscious. There's nothing to experience with when the conscious mind is gone.

 

As creatures who have only our conscious mind to relate to our experience of the world, there's a tendency to assign consciousness to things that clearly have none... including our dead friends and relatives. We'd like to think (although we're sure that whatever made them them is gone) about our loved ones going about their business; living their dead lives, fully conscious of what's happening to them, because the only experience we have of being human is being conscious and it's very hard to stop thinking that way.

 

 

I agree with this post.

 

 

Hey, you can leave atheist weirdo but veganism ain't weird tongue.png

 

P.S. Yes, the bible calls death a sleep (research it on blueletter bible or something if you want) and it says that the dead are not conscious.

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YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY

 

THUMBYS BAAAAAAACKKK !!!!11!1!1!1!!11!

 

I WISH I KNEW HOW TO USE EMOTICONS ON THE MOBILE VERSION!!1!!1!1!1

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YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY

 

THUMBYS BAAAAAAACKKK !!!!11!1!1!1!!11!

 

I WISH I KNEW HOW TO USE EMOTICONS ON THE MOBILE VERSION!!1!!1!1!1

 

Not really back but I take it you "missed" me, Daddymc?

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YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY

 

THUMBYS BAAAAAAACKKK !!!!11!1!1!1!!11!

 

I WISH I KNEW HOW TO USE EMOTICONS ON THE MOBILE VERSION!!1!!1!1!1

 

Not really back but I take it you "missed" me, Daddymc?

Everyone misses you. You were gone? :shrug:

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YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY

 

THUMBYS BAAAAAAACKKK !!!!11!1!1!1!!11!

 

I WISH I KNEW HOW TO USE EMOTICONS ON THE MOBILE VERSION!!1!!1!1!1

 

Not really back but I take it you "missed" me, Daddymc?

Everyone misses you. You were gone? Wendyshrug.gif

 

What are you talking about?

 

 

I did not post for awhile.

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YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY

 

THUMBYS BAAAAAAACKKK !!!!11!1!1!1!!11!

 

I WISH I KNEW HOW TO USE EMOTICONS ON THE MOBILE VERSION!!1!!1!1!1

 

Not really back but I take it you "missed" me, Daddymc?

Everyone misses you. You were gone? Wendyshrug.gif

 

What are you talking about?

 

 

I did not post for awhile.

It was a joke. It seems to have escaped you....

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YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY

 

THUMBYS BAAAAAAACKKK !!!!11!1!1!1!!11!

 

I WISH I KNEW HOW TO USE EMOTICONS ON THE MOBILE VERSION!!1!!1!1!1

 

Not really back but I take it you "missed" me, Daddymc?

Everyone misses you. You were gone? Wendyshrug.gif

 

What are you talking about?

 

 

I did not post for awhile.

It was a joke. It seems to have escaped you....

 

I know the lions like me for fodder but nudge, nudge, wink, wink, I know the resurrection and the life :)

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I know the lions like me for fodder but nudge, nudge, wink, wink, I know the resurrection and the life smile.png

Yes, you do strike me as the martyrdom type. Earn you way right into heaven without having to learn anything. :)

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I know the lions like me for fodder but nudge, nudge, wink, wink, I know the resurrection and the life smile.png

Yes, you do strike me as the martyrdom type. Earn you way right into heaven without having to learn anything. smile.png

 

You and your wild imaginings (you remind me of another fellow arond here :), I like him though ) No one can earn their way to heaven.

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I know the lions like me for fodder but nudge, nudge, wink, wink, I know the resurrection and the life smile.png

Yes, you do strike me as the martyrdom type. Earn you way right into heaven without having to learn anything. smile.png

 

You and your wild imaginings (you remind me of another fellow arond here :), I like him though ) No one can earn their way to heaven.

 

That's 100% true Thumby!!!

 

Because heaven doesn't exist. You can't earn a ticket into a nonexistent place.

 

Unless you're back with empirical evidence said heaven exists?

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I know the lions like me for fodder but nudge, nudge, wink, wink, I know the resurrection and the life smile.png

Yes, you do strike me as the martyrdom type. Earn you way right into heaven without having to learn anything. smile.png

 

You and your wild imaginings (you remind me of another fellow arond here smile.png, I like him though ) No one can earn their way to heaven.

Oh, but in essence that's exactly what the whole martyrdom movement of the early church was about. There was a popular saying going around by one early Christian author to encourage those to happily face their public executions, to think of it as a great bargain, "With the suffering of one hour, you can purchase for yourself eternal life!".

 

Yeah, no, they thought that way and so do you..... I should start of topic called "A Martyrs Bargain." You can star front and center. :fdevil:

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Guest Valk0010

Actually that was something that always appealed to me, the idea of, there being a god and you become nonexistant for disobeying. My life is fairly tame compared to alot of people. But with all of the shit I have been through. I like the idea of, if there is a god, I living how I want and by my own better sense of ethics and him destroying me in the end. The idea of life being over for good is a peaceful thing for me.

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