Pangea....

[saxyroze]

Hi, I'm new.

 

When I was in high school and a Christian I tried to collaborate science and the bible together and I always wondered if Pangea and Noah’s flood correlated on the timeline. Or maybe Pangea and the tower of Babel. I’ve been searching but I can’t really find any reliable sources to answer my question. Would anyone know of a good source or maybe have any opinions on this topic?

[Fweethawt]

While you may find some similarities between the two stories (I'm not at all familiar with the one you mentioned), one thing is for certain, The Flood™ , as described in the bible, never happened.

[pandora]

Hmm... If Noah's flood did occur, there is no way it could be from the same time. As I consider Babel and the flood to both be myths, then it is a non-issue to me.

 

However, Pangea existed loooooooooooooooooong before any human appeared on earth.. (200 and some million years) so I am guessing that your theory won't work. Sorry!

[willybilly30]

I read somewhere that many religions have tales of a floor covering the world.

I wonder if it happened or not.

The thing with noah's ark i find hard to beleave

[pandora]

There is not enough water on the planet or in the atmosphere for the flood to occur. Unless water has disappeared since then (and it hasn't) then it is impossible for a flood to have covered all of the earth. I suspect, if anything, that the flood stories arose because a flood SEEMED universal to the people that it affected, but in fact, it was only a local (yet very large) flood.

 

And to clarify my earlier post, pangea started to separate ~200 mya. Hominids didn't appear until 23 mya (with Neandrathals appearing 2mya), and humans not until ~8000 years ago.

 

(I consulted my biology major husband for the info)

[saxyroze]

There is not enough water on the planet or in the atmosphere for the flood to occur. Unless water has disappeared since then (and it hasn't) then it is impossible for a flood to have covered all of the earth. I suspect, if anything, that the flood stories arose because a flood SEEMED universal to the people that it affected, but in fact, it was only a local (yet very large) flood.

 

And to clarify my earlier post, pangea started to separate ~200 mya. Hominids didn't appear until 23 mya (with Neandrathals appearing 2mya), and humans not until ~8000 years ago.

 

(I consulted my biology major husband for the info)

 

 

Ah, thanks! I was also thinking that the flood could have been simply a local flood but my high school theory kept nagging at me in the back of my mind.

[Taphophilia]

Willy,

 

Gilgamesh is an ancient Sumarian story about a Flood. In the epic Utanapishtim tells Gilgamesh about the flood story and how at one time all the gods wanted to kill all humans. Except Ea, Ea told Utanapishtim to build an ark to save his relatives and one good carpenter.

 

Utanapishtim saves his relatives and when the flood is over the gods realize what a big mistake they had made and they give him everlasting life.

 

Taph

[godlessgrrl]

I read somewhere that many religions have tales of a floor covering the world.

I wonder if it happened or not.

 

It did, but in truth it wasn't a floor, it was a wall-to-wall carpet.

[Amethyst]

Some flood might have happened somewhere, but it wasn't world wide, just localized, and it got passed down from one generation to the next, and one culture to the next, and the story got more exaggerated with each retelling (just like the rest of our myths).

[Samurai Tailor]

Hominids didn't appear until 23 mya (with Neandrathals appearing 2mya), and humans not until ~8000 years ago.

Not sure about those dates. The earliest hominid (defined as a member of family hominidae) that I am aware of is Sahelanthropus tchadensis, published in 2002, and dated to about 7 mya. Neandertal first appeared about 250 tya and anatomically modern H. sapiens about 200 tya (a date obtained via DNA analysis), although IIRC the oldest human fossil is H. sapiens idaltu from about 160 tya.

[Ouroboros]

Here's a link to a collection of flood stories, all very similar:

 

http://www.crystalinks.com/floodstories3.html

[saxyroze]

There is not enough water on the planet or in the atmosphere for the flood to occur. Unless water has disappeared since then (and it hasn't) then it is impossible for a flood to have covered all of the earth. I suspect, if anything, that the flood stories arose because a flood SEEMED universal to the people that it affected, but in fact, it was only a local (yet very large) flood.

 

This just popped into my head, what about the glaciers such as Greenland and Antarctica...plus underground water. I'm not sure but maybe if you include those plus the existing water in the oceans, lakes, and rivers and the atmosphere, it might actually be enough to cover the entire world. Or not.

[Ouroboros]

There is not enough water on the planet or in the atmosphere for the flood to occur. Unless water has disappeared since then (and it hasn't) then it is impossible for a flood to have covered all of the earth. I suspect, if anything, that the flood stories arose because a flood SEEMED universal to the people that it affected, but in fact, it was only a local (yet very large) flood.

 

This just popped into my head, what about the glaciers such as Greenland and Antarctica...plus underground water. I'm not sure but maybe if you include those plus the existing water in the oceans, lakes, and rivers and the atmosphere, it might actually be enough to cover the entire world. Or not.

No, even with that included, and the water that's underground, wouldn't be enough to cover mount everest.

 

Consider this, when water freezes it expands (lower density) and take more space than water. And if you look at the sea level right now... it's not covering earth. If enough water existed, then we would be covered right now.

 

I made a calculation once (I admit that I had some errors in it), but the rain had to come down so fast and hard that the boat would have been crushed. Imagine niagara waterfalls, constantly for 90 days. Or compare it to the hurricane Katrina, but everywhere for 90 days. I mean, it's not physically possible to rain that hard, or exist so much water in the clouds.

 

So the apologist they usually have two explanations, one is that there was underground water pockets, so not all water came from the rain. The second explanation is that the mountains weren't that high, and the ocean floor wasn't so low, and basically all the mountains and the deep oceans came into existence after the flood. My estimated calculation for that was (with the current amount of existing water), mount Everest would have to raise at least one feet a year, and the seafloor sink faster. If this was true, we would have had more earthquakes through history, recorded by historians. It should have been all over the place, practically all the time. And why has it stopped rising now?

[Fweethawt]

Not only is this a pleasant read, but it is also very thoughtfully put together in such a way as to show just how impossible the biblical flood was. Of course, this writing also demolishes other biblical stories too.

 

 

Robert G. Ingersoll's - Some Mistakes of Moses Enjoy!

[pandora]

There is not enough water on the planet or in the atmosphere for the flood to occur. Unless water has disappeared since then (and it hasn't) then it is impossible for a flood to have covered all of the earth. I suspect, if anything, that the flood stories arose because a flood SEEMED universal to the people that it affected, but in fact, it was only a local (yet very large) flood.

 

This just popped into my head, what about the glaciers such as Greenland and Antarctica...plus underground water. I'm not sure but maybe if you include those plus the existing water in the oceans, lakes, and rivers and the atmosphere, it might actually be enough to cover the entire world. Or not.

 

 

The glaciers and such were already included in the calculations that were done to determine if there is enough water. I don't have a source (it is a fact remembered from the days when I was a tad obsessed with debating Creationists), but if you search a little on it, I am sure you can find something online.

 

Hominids didn't appear until 23 mya (with Neandrathals appearing 2mya), and humans not until ~8000 years ago.

Not sure about those dates. The earliest hominid (defined as a member of family hominidae) that I am aware of is Sahelanthropus tchadensis, published in 2002, and dated to about 7 mya. Neandertal first appeared about 250 tya and anatomically modern H. sapiens about 200 tya (a date obtained via DNA analysis), although IIRC the oldest human fossil is H. sapiens idaltu from about 160 tya.

 

Yeah, well, what's your source? There is a lot of debate and widely varying opinoins on when hominids and such appeared... I will find one for mine if you find one for yours. TRILLION years ago? That doesn't seem right at all to me... but the point is that humans did not appear until way after Pangaea started to separate, which is the part pertinent to his question. I am assuming that you also believe Pangaea started to separate in the trillions of years ago too, eh?

[Ouroboros]

No, not Trillion, but Thousand years.

 

The date is about 250 000 ya for the first neandertals, and that's what I've read too.

[pandora]

No, not Trillion, but Thousand years.

 

The date is about 250 000 ya for the first neandertals, and that's what I've read too.

 

 

 

Oh.. . DUH! Too much time with in laws.... it lowers my IQ.

 

Still, the point is the same. Hubby says he got off the NOVA site.

[Ouroboros]

The info I have is that Neanderthal fossils are found in the range of 200,000 y to 30,000 y. And I got that from Evolution, The Triumph of an Idea, by Carl Zimmer (2001).

 

I will look for more info about homonids in the book, and while doing that restart my computer. wireless keyboard and mouse stopped working, stupid KVM switch messed it up, and I'm typing on laptop. Stupid laptop keyboard too. Stupid computer, and stupid technology!!! :aaargh!:

 

-edit-

 

Reboot...

 

Ardipithecus ramidus, oldest known homonid (but I have no date on it in the book?), and Australopithecus anamensis dated to 4.2 million year old.

[Samurai Tailor]

More than you probably want to know about hominid fossils: http://talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/recent.html#mille

 

Also worth noting is the point towards the end of the main section that suggests Neandertal may have existed as recently as 27,000 years ago.

 

Added: A better TO page: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/species.html

 

A. ramidus goes as far back as 5.8 my according to that page.

[mwc]

I made a calculation once (I admit that I had some errors in it), but the rain had to come down so fast and hard that the boat would have been crushed. Imagine niagara waterfalls, constantly for 90 days. Or compare it to the hurricane Katrina, but everywhere for 90 days. I mean, it's not physically possible to rain that hard, or exist so much water in the clouds.

As I recall the number you're looking for is 6 inches per minute. The fastest rate of recorded rainfall (again off the top of my head so someone correct me if I am wrong) was 1-1.5"/minute and that lasted less than two minutes. This amount of rainfall would obliterate everything in it's path including the SS Noah.

 

Apart from the obvious rainfall rate problems you mention there's the incredible amount of heat given off by such an event that would have boiled anything that might have somehow survived the rain itself. Of crouse you need to account for the miles of water vapor that would have been in the atmosphere before the rain even fell. Think about trying to live, without protection at the bottom of the ocean. The pressure would have crushed anything before the flood and Noah wouldn't have been alive to build the ark (the clouds on Venus are a perfect example of how "vapor" has crushing weight..our own air does too, of course, but we're designed to handle that relatively little amount of weight on us all the time). After this mythical world wide flood ends we need to now get rid of all the water (all the way out of the atmosphere so we won't be crushed) and reform all the ice at the poles (complete with fossils and other such things) in less than 6000 years.

 

The only way this could have happened is if you start adding to the story. This would require nearly non-stop miracles to actually pull of the Noah story. The bible mentions no miracles like this at all.

 

So the apologist they usually have two explanations, one is that there was underground water pockets, so not all water came from the rain. The second explanation is that the mountains weren't that high, and the ocean floor wasn't so low, and basically all the mountains and the deep oceans came into existence after the flood. My estimated calculation for that was (with the current amount of existing water), mount Everest would have to raise at least one feet a year, and the seafloor sink faster. If this was true, we would have had more earthquakes through history, recorded by historians. It should have been all over the place, practically all the time. And why has it stopped rising now?

The apologies for this story are sooooo amazingly bad that it's really sad that people can't see it. I like the flood story since it is, out of the whole of the bible, the single most provable story of all. Yet, there is zero evidence for it. The earth shows nothing when a global flood is researched. Local floods of various sizes, some extremely large if the Black Sea evidence is correct (and, if so, the most likely candidate for the global flood myth of Sumeria and later the bible), are everywhere though. The KT boundry caused by an impact 65 million years ago is a world wide phenomenon (unless disturbed by local processes of course) but an extremely recent, and far more devastating, event of this world wide flood is not to be found. It boggles the mind. Examples like the Grand Canyon are often used to "show" the after effects of the flood and people debate this all day. I use the more simple example of Meteor Crater also in Arizona. If it occured before the flood it should have been filled in and if it occured after the flood why does the wind erosion evidence show it to predate the flood? Miracles will be required to explain this as well. There's no need to really mention the cultures that didn't realize they were underwater and continued to thrive during the flood.

 

mwc

[Guest Gibbbygoat]

pangea and evolution are theories as well as you might say about God.

You have faith that scientists are hopefully right.

[scitsofreaky]

You guys are forgetting that Gawd can do anything.

pangea and evolution are theories as well as you might say about God.

Actually, there is no proof of God.

You have faith that scientists are hopefully right.

I have no such faith. I expect scientists to make conclusions based on the evidence they have, but be looking for more evidence.

[crazy-tiger]

pangea and evolution are theories as well as you might say about God.

You have faith that scientists are hopefully right.

The theory of God is basically a bad guess... there's little to no evidence for it and plenty against it. Faith is needed for that belief.

The Theory of Evolution is almost 100% fact... there's more evidence for it that there is for Gravity, and there's still no evidence against it. Evolution has been proven to happen... we're just not sure HOW it happens. No faith required.

The Theory of Plate Techtonics is basically confirmed... we can measure how fast and in what direction they are traveling and work back from that to say where they were several millions of years ago. No faith required for that.

 

 

Would you like to re-evaluate what you said, or would you like to make a fool of yourself?

[Mr. Neil]

I've seen creationists use the "faith in scientists" nonsense before. The argument is not so much that scientists don't make reasonable conclusions, but rather that we, the laymen, just accept anything that scientists say without reasonable evidence. In other words, "Science says it. I believe it. Case closed."

 

But that's not really true. Sure, sometimes we read about discoveries in a science magazine or on Talk Origins, and we take it for granted, but these resources are granted credibility, because their publications overwhelmingly adhere to the real world. In other words, "Science says it. Nature shows it. Case closed."

 

Evolution is observable to the layman. We observe the benefits of the discovery of evolution in our daily lives. Genetic procedures like vaccination and gene therapy are done with an understanding of how mutations occur.

 

Vaccines, in particular, are not done as crudely as the original cow pox vaccination that we've all read about. The flu virus, for example, is made to adapt by exposing it to a series of chicken egg infections. After a series of eggs have been infected and the new virus is extracted and is administered to humans. Since the virus is now adapted to chickens, it no longer harms humans. However, since the new virus is still genetically similar to the original strain, it's still effective in proventing a full-scale infection.

 

This is a real-world application of evolution as a theory, and it's a clear demonstration of evolution as a fact. No faith required.

[willybilly30]

I do not know why I said floor lol

I see everyone’s point that people didn’t know other continents existed back then so when they got a flood they thought the whole world got flooded. Every continent gets floods but not a global flood.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I read somewhere that many religions have tales of a floor covering the world.

I wonder if it happened or not.

 

It did, but in truth it wasn't a floor, it was a wall-to-wall carpet.

 

 

One religion borrows from another religion. That sounds very similar to the Noah its probably were the idea came from

 

 

 

 

 

 

quote name='Taphophilia' date='Nov 25 2005, 10:27 PM' post='111266']

Willy,

 

Gilgamesh is an ancient Sumarian story about a Flood. In the epic Utanapishtim tells Gilgamesh about the flood story and how at one time all the gods wanted to kill all humans. Except Ea, Ea told Utanapishtim to build an ark to save his relatives and one good carpenter.

 

Utanapishtim saves his relatives and when the flood is over the gods realize what a big mistake they had made and they give him everlasting life.

 

Taph