The Sin Of Sodom:

[FeelHappy]

Ezekiel 16:

48 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, your sister Sodom and her daughters never did what you and your daughters have done.

49 “‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

 

 

If the things in bold don't describe the American christian right, I don't know what does. I think there's a certain irony here that the christian right which are so opposed to gay rights are the very same one which are opposed to universal health care, unemployment benefits, helping the needy, "entitlement programs", etc. I'm so fed up with Christians and reading their comments about these things, I doubt anyone could be any more unchristian than a christian. Its sickening, thank god there's no god.

[florduh]

Ironic, no?

[OpheliaGinger]

It is utterly frustrating when people think of themselves as so self-righteous by condemning people but yet they commit the most egregious sins by eating up all the food and denying the truly hungry anything.

[pratt]

the bible caters for everything|

 

when it needs to condemn the homosexuals, there are verses,,,,

when it needs to do some social needs, there are verses,,,,,

when it needs to build a BIG shiny church, there are verses,,,,

when it needs to con people, there are verses,,,,

 

therpy have verses for almost any occasions, if nit, the preacher will just npmake it up

 

 

[hereticzero]

Nice topic, FeelHappy. I've been trying to explain that very verse to xtians for years without success. Many are so 'lead astray™' by the teachings of the self-appointed and false-apostle Paul.

[raoul]

Nice topic, FeelHappy. I've been trying to explain that very verse to xtians for years without success. Many are so 'lead astray™' by the teachings of the self-appointed and false-apostle Paul.

Can you or anyone else over here expand on that theme a bit? I've heard it said before that Paul came along and actually began an entirely different xtian doctrine. I think Bart Ehrmann says the same thing somewhere regarding the 'atonement' death for salvation - if memory serves me correctly, Ehrmann said the other apostles had no idea of any such thing required. Anyway, if you can explain this or give me some sources to check for myself, I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks.

[hereticzero]

Raoul:

 

My sources are biblical. When I argue with Christians concerning their religion, I use their bible for reference and ignore anyone's written interpretations according to their own doctrines. This is because Christians believe their bible to be true and infallible. I don't read and explain someone's explanation, I try to use the bible as it is written.

 

The atonement of salvation is based upon a sin offering. The Christian doctrine is that Jesus was a 'perfect sacrifice' for the atonement of sins. However, this would only be a 'true' doctrine of Christianity based upon the Commandments god supposedly gave Moses. But the prophet Jeremiah claimed that god never gave a commandment for a sin offering to Moses but rather it was given by the priests, written by the scribes who were liars because they wrote falsely that god was with them and gave Moses the law.

 

 

(Jer 5:31) The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

 

 

(Jer 7:8) Behold, you trust in lying words that cannot do any good.

 

(Jer 7:22) For I did not speak to your fathers, nor command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.

 

(Jer 7:24) But they did not listen, nor bow their ear, but walked in their own plans, in the stubbornness of their evil heart, and went backward and not forward.

 

(Jer 7:28) But you shall say to them, This is a nation which does not obey the voice of Jehovah their God, nor receives instruction; truth has perished, and is cut off from their mouth.

 

(Jer 5:31) The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

 

Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

 

Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

 

Mat 15:8-9 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. (9) But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

 

Mat_9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

 

Hos_6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

 

God never desired sacrifice as a ritual nor as part of any offering to him. It was solely created by the Priests. To claim Jesus is a sacrifice is blasphemy because it puts words in God's mouth he never spoke. Who was Moses anyway but a mythological figure in a Babylonian mystery religion called Judaism.

 

Now for Paul: Jesus taught his disciples over a three year period about the Kingdom of God--Paul claims in his writings, though none can be verified as having been written by Paul, but Paul wrote what he believe Jesus to be. He says nothing about Jesus' ministry but goes into chapter after chapter of his own gospel, which he freely admits is HIS gospel. Paul claims to have had a vision on the road to Damascus but he could not tell the same story three times the same way, every story was different in detail. The Apostles appointed by the disciples after Jesus died were those who knew Jesus when he was alive and were witnesses to his crucifiction. this was their requirements until Paul had his 'vision' and learned every detail from Jesus in that vision that took Jesus three years to teach his disciples. Paul appointed himself as an apostle and caused a disruption among the disciples to leave Jerusalem where they had been directed by Jesus to preach his gospel until the Jew had been taught the Kingdom of God. Paul however claimed the disciples were lazy and convinced them to take his gospel to the gentile. But in Romans Chapter Two we find that it is blasphemy to preach to the Gentile because they were not given the law yet they performed the works of the law written in their hearts. Only the Jew needed redeeming because they received the law. Paul's gospel was the teaching of the person of Jesus, not the coming Kingdom of God. The church teaches the gospel of Paul which is why the Christian or Catholic church is called the 'Pauline Church,' because its doctrines of sacraments and other ceremonies were given to it by Paul. When Jesus began his teachings in the Book of Matthew, he claimed he did not come speaking of himself because if he did then he was a liar. Yet, not soon after this claim all Jesus talks about is himself which leads me to believe the gospels were added to over the centuries with more and more scriptures added by Paul's writings than what Jesus claimed were of his gospel. There is no way to tell what the 'real message of Jesus' is. All we have are the babblings of Paul, which cannot be proved==copies of copies only exist and they cannot be verified as true. The prophet Jeremiah destroyed Christian doctrine with his assertions that god never gave the law of atonement by sacrifice to the Jew. The Christians ignore this bit by claiming they have a New Testament that replaces the Old Testament because Jesus made a new covenant with his blood sacrifice that did away with the requirements of the Old Testament thereby voiding whatever was commanded in the OT.

 

Now going back to the original OP by FeelHappy, Christians claim homosexuality is an abomination because of the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah which is supposedly they were all a bunch of homosexuals trying to rape some angels. This never was the case because in Ezekiel he claimed “‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy." They were destroyed not because of homosexuality but because they lacked CHARITY! They had no mercy nor compassion, for anyone! That was what disturbed god so much that he wiped them from the face of the earth! 'For I desire mercy and not sacrifice!' Love conquers sin. There is no commandment against love, so love of anyone cannot be a sin. Paul's rant about homosexuality was from the point of view of the Pharisee, whom he claimed to be but there is also no indication he was a Pharisee but could have been a pupil who never finished training as a Pharisee, just like he claimed to be an apostle when he was not. In fact, Jesus even claimed that one would not obtain salvation unless their righteousness exceeded that of the Pharisee. With that thought, one cannot be of the Kingdom of God unless one's righteousness exceeds that of Paul, a Pharisee preaching his own doctrine. So, the Christian church does not teach Jesus, who was an impossiblity as a sacrifice according to the prophet Jeremiah, but Christians teach the homophobic gospel and tradition according to Paul. The church is unaware through willful ignorance of what they teach as a gospel of good news. They teach a bastardized version of Judaism including its traditions that were man-made commandments of men and not the gospel that god desires mercy and not sacrifice.

 

Jesus never taught anything about homosexuals or sodomites. In his ministry he would have had ample opportunity to do so had he thought homosexuality was an abomination to himself. Only Paul wrote of such things, and we only have church tradition telling us Paul wrote such things. If it were not important for Jesus to admonish, then it must not have been an important subject to him as much as telling a woman who was a prostitute to go and sin no more but he never confronted lesbians or homosexuals. The Pauline church teaches its own brand of salvation while ignoring a basic tenant of their own beliefs handed down from the OT which is true religion is to visit widows and orphans in their affliction and that god desires MERCY and not sacrifice.

 

Jas_1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit orphans and widows in their afflictions, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

 

 

HZ

[hereticzero]

BTW: The Kingdom of God that Jesus spoke of that is within all of us is the ability to show mercy and compassion to others and forgiveness. When this kingdom of god is in all men, then his kingdom will be on earth. As long as man refuses to forgive and show mercy and compassion, such as Sodom and Gomorrah, then god's kingdom will never be on earth. Christianity fights god's will with their gospel version according to Paul.

[raoul]

HereticZero,

I can't thank you enough for taking the time to post this. I'm going to copy it into a Word file for my own continuing education regarding this apostasy they are actually following.

 

When you cited the ot parts about not desiring sacrifice but compassion it reminded me of something I'd forgotten. A year or so back I recall going to a Jewish site where the same things were written to show how blasphemous the xtian religion of today really is. The site quoted ot verses showing similiar if not the same quotations you just cited. It ended by saying something to the effect (can't remember the exact quote) that to preach about the blood, crucifixion, sacrifice of Jesus was tantamount to contradicting everything written in the bible. Demanding a human sacrifice was an abomination was the way they put it, or at least that's how I remember it.

 

Then tying that in to what I've studied regarding Paul's teachings which ran counter to everything written in the bible, along with what you write here pretty much seals it for me.

 

Thanks again!

[Deva]

Heretic, that was excellent. I could never go back to any church that I know of, because they all have that twisted idea that Jesus was a sacrifice for sin. It is NOT what Jesus taught, if in fact he said some of the things attributed to him. The modern church is "Paulianity." Who knows how the written gospels were twisted in the first and second centuries? Probably if there was a real Jesus, no one actually knows what he said because the people started twisting around what he was saying and writing their own ideas as truth. Paul, of course openly says that what he is writing is not God's word, but his own. Yet this is brushed aside.

 

If the true gospel is to show mercy, compassion and forgiveness I would have no problem whatsoever with that.

[florduh]

Nicely done, HZ!

[FeelHappy]

Seriously though if the church was more like what HZ mentioned: teaching compassion, mercy not sacrifice, etc. I probably would have remained.