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With Me Or Against Me Matthew 12:30


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This is taken off biblegateay the NASB because I do not trust the NIV.

Now I pointed out to someone that Jesus said you are either with him or against me and I was told that this verse does not apply to people, but that he's only discussing spirits because of the context it is in. Which still would make the spirit world this thing fighting over your soul. Thoughts?

 

Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute was brought to [v]Jesus, and He healed him, so that the mute man spoke and saw. 23 All the crowds were amazed, and were saying, “This man cannot be the Son of David, can he?” 24 But when the Pharisees heardthis, they said, “This man casts out demons only by [w]Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”

25 And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, “[x]Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and [y]any city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he [z]is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand? 27 If I by[aa]Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 Or how can anyone enter the strong man’s house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.

The Unpardonable Sin

30 He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

31 “ Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 Whoever [ab]speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever [ac]speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

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I don't get that interpretation from the context at all. It reads as a collection of sayings attributed to jesus loosely strung together around some framework the author/authors want to impose upon their version of Jesus.

 

In fact the notion of that verse applying to spirits in a spiritual battle seems very odd and skewed - like they are trying to force fit the text to fit a desired dogma.

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Considering this:

Matt 10:33

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

 

I don't see why people aren't included.

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Considering this:

Matt 10:33

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

 

I don't see why people aren't included.

 

I'm confused, are you rewording? or is that from another version?

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I don't get that interpretation from the context at all. It reads as a collection of sayings attributed to jesus loosely strung together around some framework the author/authors want to impose upon their version of Jesus.

 

In fact the notion of that verse applying to spirits in a spiritual battle seems very odd and skewed - like they are trying to force fit the text to fit a desired dogma.

 

See that's how I felt. That it really is all just a collection of sayings not necessarily put in any context. And it's hard to find where one context ends and another begins, depending on the version the headings are different and the editing implies different contexts because of those headings. But even that verse isn't necessarily related the one before it or the one after it. And all the old theology stuff that I've read that was free online said the same thing, you are with him or against him. Not spirits, people. I just wanted to know if any people who were also liberal xians had a different view.

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bloodlyengel,

 

In an interview with Bill Moyers, Joseph Campbell suggested that if a person wants to "hear" the message of the rich symbols in myths;

 

"Read other people's myth, not those of your own religion, because you tend to interpret your own religion in terms of facts--but if you read the other ones, you begin to get the message."

~The Power Of Myth with Bill Moyers, Betty Sue Flowers, Editor, 1988 p. 5.

 

I know for myself how hard it is to read the myth that demanded so much of my focus, for so many years, and not consider it a factual reality!

 

One of the functions of myth (mythology) is to teach us that we can turn inward.

 

The rich symbolic message in myth gives us a way of putting our senses in touch with what the experience of being is about--what its like to feel "the rapture of being alive."

 

According to Joesph Campbell, myth also has a "pedagogical function, of how to live a human lifetime under any circumstances. Myth can teach you that."

 

Myth is about how to wonder at the mysteries of living.

 

Science tells us how the world works but what is it?

 

Myth is about imagination, wonder, awe, meaning.

 

Analyzing the facts get in the way of that!

 

If you read the myths of other people, "you begin to get the message."

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Considering this:

Matt 10:33

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

 

I don't see why people aren't included.

 

I'm confused, are you rewording? or is that from another version?

It's from the KJV of Matthew 10, not Matthew 12.

Based on what Jesus said in Matt 10:33, which is prior to Matthew 12:30, it appears to me that he was referring to people.

Anyone that denied him was essentially his enemy and would be denied in heaven.

I agree with oddbird1963, and don't see why Matt 12:30 wouldn't be applicable to people.

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Considering this:

Matt 10:33

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

 

I don't see why people aren't included.

 

I'm confused, are you rewording? or is that from another version?

It's from the KJV of Matthew 10, not Matthew 12.

Based on what Jesus said in Matt 10:33, which is prior to Matthew 12:30, it appears to me that he was referring to people.

Anyone that denied him was essentially his enemy and would be denied in heaven.

I agree with oddbird1963, and don't see why Matt 12:30 wouldn't be applicable to people.

 

Ahhh I understand. Ok I'm not insane...He knows a lot more about xian history so he's a touch one to argue with.

 

Also, I ask this because it started from an article I read about Jesus being a cult leader.

 

http://www.losingmyreligion.com/essays/brad/cultleader.htm

 

This is what started it.

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Mark 9: (NIV)

 

38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”

39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us. 41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.

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So Mark 9:40 seems to be confirming that he is talking about people. I don't understand why the statement comes up twice and is after talking about casting out demons.

 

Any thoughts as to why they are together?

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