Why Won't Thumbelina Be Truthful About Herself?

[bornagainathiest]

Hello.

 

If someone asks me about myself and what I believe, I tell them I'm an Atheist. It's that simple. A straight question gets a straight and truthful answer. I've got nothing to hide.

 

If somebody asks me if I keep the company of other atheists, I'd have no hesitation in replying, "Yes, I do. Especially online, in a forum called Ex-Christian.Net" But I'd then go further, to clarify things, so that there's no misunderstanding. After all, I don't want to deliberately leave people with the wrong ideas about me, do I? Unless I tell the whole truth, they'll come away with the false idea that Ex-Chr.Net is a forum exclusively for Ex-Christian Atheists, which of course, it isn't.

 

So, to prevent any kind of misunderstanding (deliberate or accidental) I'd clarify what this forum's all about. "Ex-Chr.Net isn't just for Atheists. It's for anyone. Agnostics, Pagans, Hindus, Jews, anyone. There just happen to be some like-minded Atheists there who I regularly talk with." This sets the record straight and irons out any misunderstandings. As I said above, I've got nothing to hide.

 

But, if I conceal important facts about my beliefs, don't reveal who's company I keep (when asked) and if I'm evasive about where I get my beliefs from, would you then trust anything else that I wrote?

 

Now read on...

 

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highrishman, on 07 August 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

So you're saying heaven is of this universe?

 

Thumbelina, on 08 August 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

Yes. Some think that it may be located around Orion's belt.

 

Some? Who are these 'some'? Thumbelina doesn't say who these mysterious 'some' are.

 

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Posted by Thumbelina on 09 August 2012 - 07:58 PM in The Lion's Den

About heaven being located around Orion's belt, I don't know much about it. Some believe that that's where it is. They believe that the universe has a center, I did not look deeply into that topic, I remember hearing about red shifts and doppler effect and an illustration with a balloon with pennies affixed to it that scientists who PURPOSE not to have a God, use to trick students into believing the universe has no center. The students realize the balloon-penny demonstration makes no sense with regard to the big bang (there would have to have multiple big bangs while the pennies are moving away from each other) but they allow them to teach it to them anyway.

 

'Some believe that that's where it is.' Who are these 'some'? 'They believe that the universe has a center... ' Who are these, 'they'? Thumbelina choses not to reveal her source.

 

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Posted by agnosticator on 27 August 2012 - 06:50 PM in The Lion's Den

 

"Dark, heavy clouds came up and clashed against each other. The atmosphere parted and rolled back; then we could look up through the open space in Orion, whence came the voice of God. The Holy City will come down through that open space."³

 

3. Arthur White quoting Ellen White in Ellen G. White: The Early Years, Vol. 1 - 1827-1862, p. 154. Same quote is also found in Early Writings, p. 41; The Present Truth, August 1, 1849, "Dear Brethren and Sisters"; The Present Truth, January 31, 1849, "To Those who are receiving the seal of the living God".

 

However, the Agnosticator came up with the goods. The source of Thumbelina's information was the writings of... http://en.wikipedia..../Ellen_G._White

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Here's what Thumbelina wrote to the Shyone, back in 2010. (Emboldening is mine.)

 

25 March 2010

When I was secular and I looked at the bible I did think to myself that some of God's actions seem to be quite contradictory to what He's supposed to be (Eg. Hardening Pharaoh's heart). However, the attitude that I adopted at the time was that I just don't understand it. Actually, I was utterly misconstruing the biblical texts. I tried asking questions to certain believers about certain things some answers were beautiful but some of them I was not satisfied with; one time when I asked a Pastor's wife about why they worship on Sunday when I've been told that the bible says that Saturday is the Sabbath, she retorted with an ad hominem, she said something about my accent and did not answer my question. Well as providence would have it -- cuz God realized I was searching for truth -- a few months after that I learned about the dark ages and Constantine and the role the Catholic Church played in attempting to change what God has blessed. I was eventually able to find a people that followed the bible more closely and I must say I love it!

 

Who are these people? Thumbelina never says, even when asked directly. Some of us have therefore concluded that she is (most likely) a Seventh Day Adventist.

http://en.wikipedia....dventist_Church

 

But why the secrecy? If she's an SDA, why not come right out and say so? She's been here for two and half years and has posted 1,282 times, so she's had ample opportunity to come clean about the church she belongs to.

 

This is not accidental or inadvertant secrecy on Thumbelina's part. This is deliberate avoidance and calculated obfuscation. She carefully chooses the wording of her posts so as not to give away the fact that she is associated with Seventh Day Adventism.

 

Nor did she openly and honestly cite Ellen G. White as her source of information, instead deflecting the question by claiming that she didn't know much about it and only adding that 'some' believe that heaven is located around Orion's belt.

 

Not truthful! Not honest! Not open!

 

Please take note of Thumbelina's sly and deceitful ways and compare these actions with her claim that she loves us. I thought that love rejoiced in the truth?

 

Smell something?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[Thurisaz]

Whee a morontheist lying? Who'd have thought it?!

 

(Aaah okay technically not telling something is not the same as lying but you know what I mean...)

[mcdaddy]

Shes embarrassed of her wacky beliefs. Otherwise she'd come right out. She knows that SDA's aren't taken too seriously by the "orthodox".

[blackpudd1n]

*pulls up a chair and orders some popcorn*

 

Okay, Thumb, we're waiting...

[florduh]

She's a phony, even by Christian standards. She has no independent thoughts, just a sweet demeanor and access to unlimited Bible verse quotes. There is no point in bringing logical arguments or reasonable questions to her as there will be no thoughtful response, only a pre-recorded message. That is why I focus on her mud wrestling career. It's honest work, and we get to see some titty.

[mcdaddy]

She's a phony, even by Christian standards. She has no independent thoughts, just a sweet demeanor and access to unlimited Bible verse quotes. There is no point in bringing logical arguments or reasonable questions to her as there will be no thoughtful response, only a pre-recorded message. That is why I focus on her mud wrestling career. It's honest work, and we get to see some titty.

 

How many?

 

http://thatswhatsupnow.com/?p=13268

[florduh]

How many?

 

One is enough, and three's not too many. I'm a simple guy.

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

The problem with setting the record straight, is that they won't listen. You can't set the record straight. They hear only what they want to, and believe only what they want to. It's the difference between pathological and nonpathological delusion, one is a choice an the other isn't.

[bornagainathiest]

^{Ok folks,}

^{Just in case anyone thinks I'm being unfairly judgemental towards Thumbelina, here's my position on the matter.}

^{I'm playing this one ab-so-lute-ly straight and by the book. Which book? Well, the Bible... of course!}

 

^{Matthew 7}

 

^{“Do not judge, or you too will be judged.}

^{2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.}

^{3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?}

^{4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?}

^{5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.}

 

Jesus warns his followers not to judge others, or the measure by which they pass judgement will be used upon them.

 

The measure that I'm using here is one of full transparency and honesty. I have declared that if asked about what I believe and whose company I keep, I will always strive to answer truth-fully. That is, giving true and full answers.

 

I have cited examples where Thumbelina has evaded telling the full truth in her attempts not to reveal her affiliation with either Ellen G. White or the church of the Seventh Day Adventists.

 

So, the standard I set myself is the standard I am judging Thumbelina by. Thus I am abiding by the letter and the spirit of the principle outlined by Jesus.

 

If anyone thinks that I am mistaken or being unfair or un-Biblical, please say so.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[highrishman]

Thanks for including a post I made! Makes me feel special haha

 

Either way, I agree! She always seemed dodgy with most questions. Come on thumby, you've got a crowd a-gathering!

[mymistake]

Her imagination warned her not to answer you tricky questions and she thinks her imagination is God.

[Deva]

Must be ashamed of her church. So wacked out it can't stand the light of day.

[lunaticheathen]

Is this a rhetorical question?

 

When has she been honest about ANYTHING? And her "sweetness" set off my bullshit meter over a year ago.

[hereticzero]

Well ya have to have the Holy Spirit in order to understand her bullshit doctrine, which I obviously do not. God, Zeus, (dammit!) Mickey Mouse knows I tried to follow it but couldn't!

[BrotherJosh]

I grew up next to some SDA neighbors, and regularly played basketball with their son. They were an odd bunch (I'm not saying all or many SDA members are) but the wife would generally come over and try to convert my parents. They would leave her alone, but she would always pester them. Anyways, when I look back on the arguments between my parents and her over TEH LAW it now has the same weight as arguing over Pokemon.

[agnosticator]

But why the secrecy? If she's an SDA, why not come right out and say so? She's been here for two and half years and has posted 1,282 times, so she's had ample opportunity to come clean about the church she belongs to.

 

This is not accidental or inadvertant secrecy on Thumbelina's part. This is deliberate avoidance and calculated obfuscation. She carefully chooses the wording of her posts so as not to give away the fact that she is associated with Seventh Day Adventism.

 

Nor did she openly and honestly cite Ellen G. White as her source of information, instead deflecting the question by claiming that she didn't know much about it and only adding that 'some' believe that heaven is located around Orion's belt.

 

Not truthful! Not honest! Not open!

 

You are 100% correct BAA! The thing about SDAs is, they feel ostracized from the main denominations, sort of like Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses do. They are relatively new Christian denominations that started out as cults in the latter 19th century. SDAs are still cultish in some ways, so it's uncomfortable to admit their membership when the other Protestants look down on them for being "weird". It's hypocritical for one established "cult of Jesus" to berate another more modern "cult of Jesus" for their unorthodox views, even though not one denomination agrees on what they should believe! Honesty doesn't agree with any of them!

 

So I can understand Thumby's reluctance to admit what she stands for. She has issues. Persecution Complex, perhaps? But the thing about devout SDAs is, they live to "strain at gnats" with their obssessive elevation of Scripture. It's a magic book that, if read properly, assures your salvation. Faith in scripture trumps works.

[agnosticator]

I grew up next to some SDA neighbors, and regularly played basketball with their son. They were an odd bunch (I'm not saying all or many SDA members are) but the wife would generally come over and try to convert my parents. They would leave her alone, but she would always pester them. Anyways, when I look back on the arguments between my parents and her over TEH LAW it now has the same weight as arguing over Pokemon.

 

There's many SDAs who are good people, but their faith (doctrines) get in the way of close relationships with the heathen. It's like you can go only so far in the relationship, then the WALL of Law gets in the way...unless they're among the very liberal SDAs.

[Ouroboros]

...

Nor did she openly and honestly cite Ellen G. White as her source of information, instead deflecting the question by claiming that she didn't know much about it and only adding that 'some' believe that heaven is located around Orion's belt.

...

Smell something?

You could be right. But I looked up the "Heaving in Orion's Belt" thing, and Jack Van Impe (allegedly) has said it too, and I think he's more of an evangelical Christian. It's possible that this idea started from SDA or some other religion and then has spread.

 

I never heard about Heaven and Orion's belt before. I think it's one of the most ludicrous things I've heard in years though. Why Orion's belt? Why not pick the Andromeda galaxy, or IC 1101 (the largest galaxy we know of so far).

[midniterider]

Hello.

 

If someone asks me about myself and what I believe, I tell them I'm an Atheist. It's that simple. A straight question gets a straight and truthful answer. I've got nothing to hide.

 

If somebody asks me if I keep the company of other atheists, I'd have no hesitation in replying, "Yes, I do. Especially online, in a forum called Ex-Christian.Net" But I'd then go further, to clarify things, so that there's no misunderstanding. After all, I don't want to deliberately leave people with the wrong ideas about me, do I? Unless I tell the whole truth, they'll come away with the false idea that Ex-Chr.Net is a forum exclusively for Ex-Christian Atheists, which of course, it isn't.

 

So, to prevent any kind of misunderstanding (deliberate or accidental) I'd clarify what this forum's all about. "Ex-Chr.Net isn't just for Atheists. It's for anyone. Agnostics, Pagans, Hindus, Jews, anyone. There just happen to be some like-minded Atheists there who I regularly talk with." This sets the record straight and irons out any misunderstandings. As I said above, I've got nothing to hide.

 

But, if I conceal important facts about my beliefs, don't reveal who's company I keep (when asked) and if I'm evasive about where I get my beliefs from, would you then trust anything else that I wrote?

 

 

While the website in general is not atheist, I would have to say that there is a big atheist influence here in the Den and any woo you say can and will be held against you later on here. So if you dont want something ripped apart , you don't mention it. I'm not sticking up for Thumb. She's a loon. But everyone is someone else's loon.

 

So, is anyone up for a tarot card reading? Maybe we could all do a magick ritual together? Let me tell you about the Goddess! How about a recitation from the Upanishads? Yeah, thought so. :-)

 

But hey, I spreadz my pagan love and hugs around all you damn atheists even if YOU"RE ALL WRONG! j/k. lolol.

[mymistake]

So, is anyone up for a tarot card reading? Maybe we could all do a magick ritual together? Let me tell you about the Goddess! How about a recitation from the Upanishads? Yeah, thought so. :-)

 

But hey, I spreadz my pagan love and hugs around all you damn atheists even if YOU"RE ALL WRONG! j/k. lolol.

 

As an atheist I see nothing wrong with that stuff as long as you do it for fun. If you give your palm reader so much money that it starts to hurt your life then it is out of balance. Spirituality is part of being human. In my opinion it can even be done without woo. It can be approched with an agnostic "it's fun" or "let's see what happens" attitued.

 

The big, organized religions have done much harm and continue to do harm. That is why I speak against Christianity. You are not going to go all the way back to stone age paganism and start offering sacrifices again - right? As long as you don't hurt anybody it's cool.

[midniterider]

So, is anyone up for a tarot card reading? Maybe we could all do a magick ritual together? Let me tell you about the Goddess! How about a recitation from the Upanishads? Yeah, thought so. :-)

 

But hey, I spreadz my pagan love and hugs around all you damn atheists even if YOU"RE ALL WRONG! j/k. lolol.

 

As an atheist I see nothing wrong with that stuff as long as you do it for fun. If you give your palm reader so much money that it starts to hurt your life then it is out of balance. Spirituality is part of being human. In my opinion it can even be done without woo. It can be approched with an agnostic "it's fun" or "let's see what happens" attitued.

 

The big, organized religions have done much harm and continue to do harm. That is why I speak against Christianity. You are not going to go all the way back to stone age paganism and start offering sacrifices again - right? As long as you don't hurt anybody it's cool.

 

Nah, I was raised as as a skeptic so my foundation is common sense. But that doesnt mean I can't have a little fun with my pretend spirits. Just don't let em take charge. That's mental illness. Xianity is a mental illness when someone develops fear, shame or guilt (schizophrenia? MPD?) from it. I suffered guilt from xianity so I shit canned it.

[hereticzero]

.....

So, is anyone up for a tarot card reading? Maybe we could all do a magick ritual together? Let me tell you about the Goddess! How about a recitation from the Upanishads? Yeah, thought so. :-)

 

But hey, I spreadz my pagan love and hugs around all you damn atheists even if YOU"RE ALL WRONG! j/k. lolol.

 

I do this sometimes depending on whom I am having a meal with and they ask me to offer a prayer before we eat .... (some people just don't know me too well), if they are new to my way of thinking, I take my runes, or a few chicken bones, with me in my pocket. If they ask me to say 'grace,' I reach in my pocket and toss a handful of runes, or chicken bones on the table, stare at them a moment, and go 'huh!' Which almost always gets a response, 'what's that?' and my reply is 'you don't want to know.' Then I start eating. Or when they pray I just start eating. I rarely play their games, cuz I like mine better.

[Astreja]

HereticZero, if you really want to mess with their minds, recite this stanza from the Icelandic rune poem:

 

Ár er gumna góði / ok gott sumar / algróinn akr / annus allvaldr.

 

Rough pronunciation: "Our air goomna gothi / ok goat soomar /all-growin' akker / annus all-valder." Accent the penultimate syllable.

 

Meaning: "Plenty: Boon to men and good summer, and thriving crops."

 

"Börk börk börk" optional.

[bornagainathiest]

The problem with setting the record straight, is that they won't listen. You can't set the record straight. They hear only what they want to, and believe only what they want to. It's the difference between pathological and nonpathological delusion, one is a choice an the other isn't.

 

I find these interesting, in the light of BD's input.

 

From the Wiki page on Delusions.

 

"Researcher, Orrin Devinsky, MD, from the NYU Langone Medical Center, performed a study that revealed a consistent pattern of injury to the frontal lobe and right hemisphere of the human brain in patients with certain delusions and brain disorders. Devinsky explains that the cognitive deficits caused by those injuries to the right hemisphere, results in the over compensation by the left hemisphere of the brain for the injury, which causes delusions.^"

 

Cited link from the above Wiki page.

http://machineslikeu...usions/page/0/1

 

From the Wiki page on Ellen G. White (nee Harmon)

 

Head injury

At the age of nine, Ellen was struck with a rock thrown by a fellow student. The injury severely disfigured her nose, and left her in a coma for three weeks.^[11]

When Ellen Harmon had her first "conversion experience," she would later write: "This misfortune, which for a time seemed so bitter and was so hard to bear, has proved to be a blessing in disguise. The cruel blow which blighted the joys of earth, was the means of turning my eyes to heaven. I might never had known Jesus, had not the sorrow that clouded my early years led me to seek comfort in him." Review and Herald, Nov. 25, 1884, par.2

Shortly after her injury, Ellen, with her parents, attended a Methodist camp meeting at Buxton, Maine, and there, at the age of 12, she was converted. Two years later, on June 26, 1842, at her request she was baptized in the ocean by immersion.

 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

Ouroboros wrote...

I never heard about Heaven and Orion's belt before. I think it's one of the most ludicrous things I've heard in years though. Why Orion's belt? Why not pick the Andromeda galaxy, or IC 1101 (the largest galaxy we know of so far).

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I think I know the answer, Ouroboros.

 

To understand why, you have to stop thinking as a well-informed citizen of the 21st century and look at this from the p.o.v. of a Bible-obsessed person, living in the mid-19th century.

 

So, forget Relativity, the Big Bang and Quantum Theory. Also, forget the scientific method and the idea of new theories overturning old ones. Think only in terms of absolute and unchangable truths, as dictated by the Bible and by revelations from the Holy Spirit.

 

Now, go back to a time when nobody knew what a galaxy was. This is the era of pre-Einstein, pre-Hubble and pre-Photographic astronomy. All observations were done with the naked eye and all images were hand-drawn by astronomers. Here's an example of a nearby galaxy, drawn in 1845, just one year before Ellen White wrote about heaven being located in Orion's Belt.

 

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Lord_Rosse

 

Please note that Rosse was using the world's largest telescope to make this sketch.. But there's no sense of scale in his drawing, is there? That spiral could just as easily be a drawing of a small cloud that's just beyond the edge of the solar system, rather than a vast (43,000 light years across) and distant (23/24 million light years away) galaxy. The problem of scale wasn't solved until the 1920's, when Edwin Hubble showed that the universe is filled with galaxies, all moving away from each other.

 

1.

Why Orion? (Part one.)

 

Because that constellation sits right on the Celestial Equator.

This means it can be seen from anywhere on Earth, at some time of the year. To someone with a naive take on these matters, this might have sounded like the obvious place for God's heaven to be located. The Bible often describes Heaven as being high above the Earth and God looking down and seeing ALL of the Earth. Therefore, to a naive Creationist mind, His abode would have to be located right above the equator. That way, as the world turns on it's axis, He can see every inch of the Earth's surface in the space of 24 hours. Such an arrangement satisfies scripture exactly, while taking account of the world's spherical shape.

 

(Yes. I know that this contains a falsehood, but I'm trying to convey White's overly-simplistic, Creationist thinking here, ok?)

 

2.

Why Orion? (Part two.)

 

Because White had no concept of Relativity and the finite speed of light.

We now know that the stars and nebula of Orion are over a thousand light years away and we are seeing them as they were, over a millennium ago. So, even though she might have understood that all of the stars in the sky were 'somewhere out there', beyond the planets, she couldn't have understood just how incredibly distant they really are. Nor would she have realized that their light is delayed in getting to us. Likewise, God's view of the Earth from Orion is delayed by an equal amount. Taking relativity into account, God would be seeing Earth as it was, over a thousand years before Ellen White was born.

 

She probably thought that God, His angels and the inhabitants of other solar systems could look down on the Earth and see it in "real time". For her, if it was 1846 on Earth, it was also 1846 in Orion, in Andromeda and everywhere in the universe.

 

Therefore, in her mind, Orion isn't the distant, far removed region we know it to be. It's God's ideal vantage point from which He can look down on the world and instantly see what everyone is doing.

 

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So Why do the SDA's still think Heaven is in Orion?

 

You'd think that with all the astronomical advances made since 1846, the SDA's would have revised their doctrine, right?

 

Wrong! Here's why.

 

The Seventh Day Adventists are Creationists. They reject anything that contradicts the Bible. You've read it from Thumbelina's very fingertips. "The Bible is the ultimate authority." She doesn't just mean in theological or moral matters, either. The Bible is the ultimate authority in ALL spheres of human life. If astronomical science contradicts the Bible, then it's from Satan and must be rejected and ignored.

 

Just as the Bible cannot be re-written or re-interpreted to take account of present day knowledge, so White's prophetic writings cannot be re-written or re-interpreted. Her words are just as much set-in-stone as anything in scripture.

 

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However, the main problem with treating White's writings as being inspired by the Holy Spirit is the all-too-relevant question, "What if they aren't?"

 

If they are only, ever treated as inspired, then they are beyond testing and above scrutiny and can only be accpeted on faith. As such the church of the Seventh Day Adventists runs the risk of binding themselves to the words of someone who's visions might well have come from a head injury and not God.

 

A site opposed to Ellen White.

http://www.ellenwhit.../headinjury.htm

 

A site endorsing Ellen White.

http://www.whiteesta...es/visions.html

 

I find it most interesting that the final words of the pro-White website's Summary & Conclusions are these.

 

"Concerning prophets, the Bible says, “Ye shall know them by their fruits”

(Matthew 7:16). This is an appropriate standard by which to judge the visions and works of Ellen White."

 

As the only representative of the church of the Seventh Day Adventists in this forum, Thumbelina's fruit is the only standard by which we can judge her church and the writings of it's prophet, Ellen G. White.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.