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How To Deal With Opposition To Your Position That Doesn't Have Reason?


Jake49
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ok this is rantaliscious... no expectations to read lol

 

I've been researching into fallacies...

 

What I'm aware of is that I have my position.... and a person can bring something to me that opposes my position.

 

They can address the substance of reason that supports my position with reason they provide, or they can be intellectually dishonest by playing games with words and communicating information to create the appearance of a superior opposition to my position with the use of fallacies.

 

I've felt this opposition to my position all my life. The judgment, the conditioning of inadequacy, the pressure to conform, the indoctrination, the "you are not enough".. "you are *this*" "you are *that*"... the relentless judgement and "that's not for you"... "don't think for yourself" type pressures... "this is WHAT you need to think"... "be this, value that, this makes you worthy of love"... "Be everything under the sun apart from yourself"... essentially in all these kinds of ways and more, the position of my true and authentic self, is opposed by so many things in life. (I may be delusional in that understanding, but that is my current understanding based on my experience in life so far... with a LOT of reason to back that up)

 

This opposition is something that has been running through my life like a fucking annoying record for 28 years... (amongst other more "positive" records playing lol)... and Christianity played that record in the most twisted way... by presenting openly the life of being who I am, while subtly and manipulatively shackling me from that beyond my awareness (for a time). Oh how that record harmonises with fear and inadequacy of Christian doctrine.

 

In the last few years when I left Christianity behind and really now have no doubts about it overall being (to save a rant) bullshit. (full of half truths I guess is a way of putting it).

 

The opposition is still everywhere in this world... this opposition of my true and authentic self to discredit me, misrepresent me, oversimplify me, categorize me, label me, slander me, accuse me.... (when I say "me"... is that all my false ego?... is that where I'm taking this personally and I shouldn't.... hmm)... This opposition seems to be everywhere when I open my mouth and speak from my heart or simply share information...... Am I perfect? no lol, I'm very aware I have a list of things about me that I actually actively SEARCH FOR and want to see in myself so I can deal with it, all the delusions in my mind, the intellectual dishonesty, the self loathing... all of it, I want to step by step see it and deal with it, part of my life long journey that has no final destination of perfection.... so it's not that I think when I open my mouth it's all perfect and reasonable... I am OPEN to seeing the "negatives" in my thinking and behavior that people would point out..

 

I just require one thing.... REASON...

(requiring evidence and science also?)

 

The issue is that people oppose my position and misrepresent and label my position WITHOUT REASON....

 

This is where my question comes in.... "I want to be more aware of when I might be going too far"... in how I respond to this. Because on one level, when people do this, regardless of my awareness that they may be consciously asleep and damaged themselves... the reaction I feel, is insult and I want to push them back (not in a I pushed you, you push me, boys just about to fight way..... more like... someone brings something to me and I basically say, "no, that's not coming into my reality, it's bullshit, don't speak to me like that if you don't have reason to support your opposing views to my position.. I respect your freedom to speak to me and to have views, but if you oppose my position without reason, I have zero respect for those views and frankly they are bullshit and you're lying to yourself.. don't bring those lies to me... justify your conclusions with reason, science, evidence... think about what you're saying... thinking critically, think for yourself... and then oppose my position..."....

"Oh you're so arrogant Jake! you think you're so right! you think that no one else is allowed to have a view except for you! that's disrespectful to other peoples beliefs! You are anti-religion!".... and more piles of bullshit, fallacies and nonsense that has zero reason to back it up... in fact, all the reason immediately available in the discussion points to the conclusion that they are lying through their teeth.

 

if someone doesn't provide reason, and instead provides fallacies..... it's like walking up to me, farting or taking a shit on my foot and walking away... This makes me want to "go to town" on their reasoning so that when people speak to me to oppose my position, they bring REASON... and then I'm like, "I'm being arrogant!? awesome! let me see! biggrin.png".... I'm frequently seeing thinking and behavior in me and doing something about it... I relish it xD.

 

When it comes to people not having reason and opposing my position assertively.... I think maybe I don't have the emotional maturity to be tolerant... and sometimes I don't have the self esteem to not feel an emotional response (which isn't right?) when someone essentially attacks my position.... or is it an attack?... or is that just how I see it because I have some identity invested in my position which I shouldn't?....

 

(by the way... I'm throwing out questions... I ask myself questions all the time... it's just that this forum is a place where they have a little bit more chance of making sense... although I don't expect that, being aware of the level of nonsense that I think and talk)

 

I like ideas... I like when ideas are seedlings and they grow into trees... I don't like it when someone tramples on an idea without reason.. and they feel they have the right to do that without their opposing position being critically thought about out of some taboo that I have to respect their beliefs.. I'm expected to stay subserviently silent or else be accused of arrogance towards others beliefs. BULLSHIT.... trample on ideas without reason, and only use fallacies and intellectual dishonesty in order to reinforce delusional belief systems... I don't have to respect anything about that... that thinking and behavior is not welcome.

 

It's just that I value kindness and gentleness... and I want to be kind and gentle too... I might get so carried away defending the trampling of an idea.. that I could start trampling the opportunity to nurture and enhance life and consciousness in a person?....

 

It's not just about religion, but about all subjects I discuss.... people bring this trampling view along... (and yes, get some perspective Jake, hurting people hurt people... there are profoundly sick aspects to our society and people, including myself may at times behave in a way that is obviously connected to our emotional and cognitive development in environments of a profoundly sick society...) - There's solutions such as, "don't talk about those things in front of people... share what you have to say with friends you trust".... but I love sharing information... I love communicating and talking about ideas.... and really, what I'm trying to figure out is... if I turn around and basically am brutal in deconstructing someones position or beliefs being pushed as an opposition to my position.... Where I'm giving REASON... is it ok to actually just let them know, "NO, it's not ok for you to share that view without giving reason for it... because of X, Y, Z"....

Then they say, "X, Y, Z is talking against MY beliefs! how dare you! you are so arrogant!"...

 

Ok.... I think specifics are very significant here lol.... I'm talking too generally in all of this...

I feel I may have come across a little too strongly recently with someone... and I'm doing that more recently.. In my communication skills for dealing with this, I don't just want to develop a hammer, I was screw drivers and paint brushes too... for different situations... right now it seems I'm just developing a hammer to say, "The opposing argument you just brought to me is nothing but fallacious horse shit... don't bring horse shit to me to oppose ideas I have provided reason for... address the reason I have provided, address the substance of the idea... or else fuck off until you do think for yourself about what you're saying to me and have reason to support your opposing position".. (I don't say fuck off and I don't say it like that... that's just a nutshell..... but for sure, people hear "fuck off"... or at least, they choose to hear that.... perhaps they have no concept of reason.... perhaps I should ramble about the value of critical thinking and reason... and avoid subjects that create this confrontation... who knows... I guess each situation is different)...

 

Anyway... any general response to anything in this is welcome... as I'm really figuring all this out myself, and any experience or understanding in any of these areas is very welcome. Thanks! smile.png

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nice video on fallacies

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I'm afraid I don't have any advice for you, since one of my friends accurately described me as "subtle as a sledgehammer." My friends just happen to like that about me, because there is never any question about how I feel or what I think. I'm not a deceptive person, I can't be.

 

I just want you to know that I read this, and I think top priority is to live authentically. However you find ways to do that is good.

 

Be well.

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Hey Socrates, you in China, man?

 

Good for you. You are on the right track. Keep up the good work.

 

Yes, we know you are correct. Your positions are solid and your methodology is correct. However, people usually just don't want to hear much of anything that challenges their received wisdom and the delusions of their in-group.

 

My advice is that you back off just a bit and do more watching. Walk softly and carry a big stick. Save your energy. Choose your targets carefully and specifically with goals in mind. Maybe pick older, more experienced adults who can give you a run for your money and really stretch you out and challenge you. Finally when you bring your skills to bear, make sure your engagements are swift and devastating.

 

Unless people's positions do real and immediate harm to others, it may be better to pity them and have sympathy and compassion, and wait for them to mature enough to be able to engage you without getting defensive.

 

Good luck and be careful out there.

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What to do if somebody opposes your idea using fallacies?

 

Well if it's a one on one conversation all you need to do is suppress your laughter. By using a fallacy they have lost. There is nothing you need to do. If it's a public debate or you are trying to influence a learned audience then you merely need to identify the fallacy your opponent used. Using a fallacy is a failure.

 

As for you getting upset that many people do not use reason, well you are going to have to realize that most of the population lacks the ability. That is just something you are going to have to accept. Humans are sophisticated chimps. Our evolution has improved our thinking in some ways but not so much in others.

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ok this is rantaliscious... no expectations to read lol

 

I've been researching into fallacies...

 

What I'm aware of is that I have my position.... and a person can bring something to me that opposes my position.

 

They can address the substance of reason that supports my position with reason they provide, or they can be intellectually dishonest by playing games with words and communicating information to create the appearance of a superior opposition to my position with the use of fallacies.

 

I've felt this opposition to my position all my life. The judgment, the conditioning of inadequacy, the pressure to conform, the indoctrination, the "you are not enough".. "you are *this*" "you are *that*"... the relentless judgement and "that's not for you"... "don't think for yourself" type pressures... "this is WHAT you need to think"... "be this, value that, this makes you worthy of love"... "Be everything under the sun apart from yourself"... essentially in all these kinds of ways and more, the position of my true and authentic self, is opposed by so many things in life. (I may be delusional in that understanding, but that is my current understanding based on my experience in life so far... with a LOT of reason to back that up)

 

This opposition is something that has been running through my life like a fucking annoying record for 28 years... (amongst other more "positive" records playing lol)... and Christianity played that record in the most twisted way... by presenting openly the life of being who I am, while subtly and manipulatively shackling me from that beyond my awareness (for a time). Oh how that record harmonises with fear and inadequacy of Christian doctrine.

 

In the last few years when I left Christianity behind and really now have no doubts about it overall being (to save a rant) bullshit. (full of half truths I guess is a way of putting it).

 

The opposition is still everywhere in this world... this opposition of my true and authentic self to discredit me, misrepresent me, oversimplify me, categorize me, label me, slander me, accuse me.... (when I say "me"... is that all my false ego?... is that where I'm taking this personally and I shouldn't.... hmm)... This opposition seems to be everywhere when I open my mouth and speak from my heart or simply share information...... Am I perfect? no lol, I'm very aware I have a list of things about me that I actually actively SEARCH FOR and want to see in myself so I can deal with it, all the delusions in my mind, the intellectual dishonesty, the self loathing... all of it, I want to step by step see it and deal with it, part of my life long journey that has no final destination of perfection.... so it's not that I think when I open my mouth it's all perfect and reasonable... I am OPEN to seeing the "negatives" in my thinking and behavior that people would point out..

 

I just require one thing.... REASON...

(requiring evidence and science also?)

 

The issue is that people oppose my position and misrepresent and label my position WITHOUT REASON....

 

This is where my question comes in.... "I want to be more aware of when I might be going too far"... in how I respond to this. Because on one level, when people do this, regardless of my awareness that they may be consciously asleep and damaged themselves... the reaction I feel, is insult and I want to push them back (not in a I pushed you, you push me, boys just about to fight way..... more like... someone brings something to me and I basically say, "no, that's not coming into my reality, it's bullshit, don't speak to me like that if you don't have reason to support your opposing views to my position.. I respect your freedom to speak to me and to have views, but if you oppose my position without reason, I have zero respect for those views and frankly they are bullshit and you're lying to yourself.. don't bring those lies to me... justify your conclusions with reason, science, evidence... think about what you're saying... thinking critically, think for yourself... and then oppose my position..."....

"Oh you're so arrogant Jake! you think you're so right! you think that no one else is allowed to have a view except for you! that's disrespectful to other peoples beliefs! You are anti-religion!".... and more piles of bullshit, fallacies and nonsense that has zero reason to back it up... in fact, all the reason immediately available in the discussion points to the conclusion that they are lying through their teeth.

 

if someone doesn't provide reason, and instead provides fallacies..... it's like walking up to me, farting or taking a shit on my foot and walking away... This makes me want to "go to town" on their reasoning so that when people speak to me to oppose my position, they bring REASON... and then I'm like, "I'm being arrogant!? awesome! let me see! biggrin.png".... I'm frequently seeing thinking and behavior in me and doing something about it... I relish it xD.

 

When it comes to people not having reason and opposing my position assertively.... I think maybe I don't have the emotional maturity to be tolerant... and sometimes I don't have the self esteem to not feel an emotional response (which isn't right?) when someone essentially attacks my position.... or is it an attack?... or is that just how I see it because I have some identity invested in my position which I shouldn't?....

 

(by the way... I'm throwing out questions... I ask myself questions all the time... it's just that this forum is a place where they have a little bit more chance of making sense... although I don't expect that, being aware of the level of nonsense that I think and talk)

 

I like ideas... I like when ideas are seedlings and they grow into trees... I don't like it when someone tramples on an idea without reason.. and they feel they have the right to do that without their opposing position being critically thought about out of some taboo that I have to respect their beliefs.. I'm expected to stay subserviently silent or else be accused of arrogance towards others beliefs. BULLSHIT.... trample on ideas without reason, and only use fallacies and intellectual dishonesty in order to reinforce delusional belief systems... I don't have to respect anything about that... that thinking and behavior is not welcome.

 

It's just that I value kindness and gentleness... and I want to be kind and gentle too... I might get so carried away defending the trampling of an idea.. that I could start trampling the opportunity to nurture and enhance life and consciousness in a person?....

 

It's not just about religion, but about all subjects I discuss.... people bring this trampling view along... (and yes, get some perspective Jake, hurting people hurt people... there are profoundly sick aspects to our society and people, including myself may at times behave in a way that is obviously connected to our emotional and cognitive development in environments of a profoundly sick society...) - There's solutions such as, "don't talk about those things in front of people... share what you have to say with friends you trust".... but I love sharing information... I love communicating and talking about ideas.... and really, what I'm trying to figure out is... if I turn around and basically am brutal in deconstructing someones position or beliefs being pushed as an opposition to my position.... Where I'm giving REASON... is it ok to actually just let them know, "NO, it's not ok for you to share that view without giving reason for it... because of X, Y, Z"....

Then they say, "X, Y, Z is talking against MY beliefs! how dare you! you are so arrogant!"...

 

Ok.... I think specifics are very significant here lol.... I'm talking too generally in all of this...

I feel I may have come across a little too strongly recently with someone... and I'm doing that more recently.. In my communication skills for dealing with this, I don't just want to develop a hammer, I was screw drivers and paint brushes too... for different situations... right now it seems I'm just developing a hammer to say, "The opposing argument you just brought to me is nothing but fallacious horse shit... don't bring horse shit to me to oppose ideas I have provided reason for... address the reason I have provided, address the substance of the idea... or else fuck off until you do think for yourself about what you're saying to me and have reason to support your opposing position".. (I don't say fuck off and I don't say it like that... that's just a nutshell..... but for sure, people hear "fuck off"... or at least, they choose to hear that.... perhaps they have no concept of reason.... perhaps I should ramble about the value of critical thinking and reason... and avoid subjects that create this confrontation... who knows... I guess each situation is different)...

 

Anyway... any general response to anything in this is welcome... as I'm really figuring all this out myself, and any experience or understanding in any of these areas is very welcome. Thanks! smile.png

 

You value reason. Some other people don't. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if it's bullshit. If they insist you believe their bullshit then why not agree to disagree (I hate that saying tho...haha) If they cross the boundaries of politeness and badger you with their bullshit then they might need to be told to fuck off...whatever happens after that is because of their own doing. So if they hit you with "you're being arrogant" or "persecuting them" it is totally unfounded. You can remind them that you politely declined to further discuss it, but they wouldn't stop.

 

Politics and religion are the two biggies that people aren't supposed to discuss because people have strong, emotionally charged opinions about them and end up pissing each other off.

 

You can also banish them with laughter or a smile. Laughter destroys the serious moment they are trying to present.

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Holy shit, people on this forum are epic :)

 

loads of gratitude for feedback, advice and ideas.. really is great to think about!!! I'm learning all the time and enjoying it :)

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