Santa: a gateway diety?

[RankStranger]

I'm a lucky man- my wife and I agree on most important issues in life, and we're both respectful and open to discussion on those few matters we disagree on... except SANTA. We don't have younguns, but we likely will someday. My wife insists that our kids will be lied to so that they believe in santa... her main reasons being that "it's like magic" (to the kid), and 'it's cute'. I'm quite anti-claus. First of all, it's just a bad practice to lie unless you have a good reason- and magical cuteness is NOT a good reason. Secondly, Santa and Biblegod have way too much in common for my tastes. They're both apparently omnicient, they both punish or reward based on being 'good' (very loose connection I know... and yeah, coal isn't exactly brimstone). They're both apparently invisible and likely both have beards.

 

My wife was taught to believe in Santa when she was a kid- she became a Santapostate when she was six, but kept the lie alive for her younger sisters, including making elf-tracks in the snow (elves peek in windows and spy on you).

 

Since my parents are good True Christian folks, my brothers and I were told that Santa was "make-believe". We were raised to be Santathiests. We still enjoyed sleeping in the living room on christmas eve night, keeping watch just to prove that there was no Santa. We even delighted in crushing the silly delusions of our classmates who still believed in the Claus. I think it's one of the few things my parents got right, and it was good training for life as an atheist.

 

Maybe the wife will post on here and explain why it's a good idea to lie to your kids... heh.

 

Could belief in Santa be a gateway into belief in 'harder dieties'? For those of you with kids, how do you approach Santa?

[Taphophilia]

I have had a personal experience with Santa, so I know that he is real.

 

Every year before we opened our presents, Santa would come knock on the door and say "Ho, Ho, Ho"

 

He hasn't done it since I was twelve, and my uncle moved away, but I know that it was Santa. I even have a tape recording to prove it.

 

So, there's your proof, you Santathiest!

 

You must have had bad experiences with Santaists. I have been hurt by them too, but my faith in Santa has seen me through the bad times.

[Fweethawt]

For those of you with kids, how do you approach Santa?

I remember our second Christmas with our firstborn son. He was a year and two months old at the time and we were pushin' the Santa thing.

 

The funny thing is (a great thing, actually), is that after he was done opening all of his presents, he gave my wife and I a great big hug.

 

Needless to say, we got the best Christmas gift that year.

[Lizard]

We always did the Santa thing. It WAS fun..both as a kid and as a parent when my kids were little.

 

I'll ask my kids later what they thought of the whole thing..

 

 

Wanted to add:

 

I came across a similar argument on a xtian board..from a very fundymental xtian, who felt that Santa was evil and one should never LIE to their children, etc..(she kept capitolizing LIE so it stood out and condemned everyone who thought different than her) So..you have something in common with a fundie..

 

*ducks and runs*

[Poonis]

When I have children, I will be the first to tell them about santa, and that he does not exist. At the point where parents usually start lying to their kids about Santa, I will tell them the truth.

 

It can be traumatic to a kid who finds out Santa is not real after years of believing so. I did not like it, and I will not cause trauma to my children for such a reason as an outright and blatant LIE as this. My parents intentionally lied to me about Santa, and now I have a deep-rooted sense of doubt for what my parents tell me, nor anyone else; religion or state.

 

Just as no one has been able to show me Santa truly exists, no one has been able to show me *any* god truly exists either.

 

I have been told, "Ben, just because you thought Santa is real and is not doesn't mean God is not real." But keep in mind, the ideology of Santa does more harm for Christianity by fostering distrust and doubt, and if Christianity wishes to garner any merit, the ideology of Santa and all that is attributed to him must be outright rejected.

[Amethyst]

Could belief in Santa be a gateway into belief in 'harder dieties'? For those of you with kids, how do you approach Santa?

 

I think you're right, that it is a gateway belief into other deities. If I had kids, I wouldn't make them believe in anything. I'd make sure they knew that Santa was a fictional character, just like Jesus.

[Godless Wonder]

I see it another way. How many adults believe in Santa?

 

Pretty much zero.

 

I see Santa as the gateway deity, sure. The gateway to atheism.

 

How many deconversion stories, or arguments put forth by atheists have you read in which someone says, something like "How is (your) God any different than Santa?"

 

I don't feel like I was harmed by being fooled about Santa for a little while when I was a kid. But, then again, unlike most of the folks here, my parents didn't try to fool me about Jesus too. Had I been so fooled about Jesus, only to figure that out as an adult, I might feel differently about having been fooled about Santa for a little while too.

 

Guess I'm just trying to offer a different perspective, which is that I don't think that fooling kids for a little while about Santa is anywhere close to being in the same league as trying to fool them about Jesus for their whole life, then treating them like crap when they fail to be fooled.

 

Well, I do draw the line at insisting that mere belief is some kind of virtue or requirement. In the movie "The Santa Clause," with Tim Allen, Santa's Sleigh is powered by the faith of kids, or some such crap, so belief is painted as a virtue. (Of course, in this movie, to get more belief-power for his sleigh, Santa provides what in exchange? Gee.... evidence that he exists.)

 

Also, I don't remember any traumatic revelation that Santa wasn't real. If I had experienced such a thing, I might also feel differently. But how many adults are bitter to this day about being fooled for a little while about Santa?

[Alice]

My experience is that you can do both ... you can make sure that your kids know that Santa isn't true AND you can let them experience all the 'magic' of make believe, in which you all enter in to the spirit of the Santa tradition without the lying ...

 

I think I've said similar in another thread ... I think Children are perfectly able to grasp the notion of Santa being some fun kind of story and a big piece of harmless ritual (its only potentially harmful IF they think its true) my kids still put a mince pie and a glass of port out for him and get all excited waiting for seven o clock (which is the rule in our house) when they can go into the front room and open their 'stockings'. In fact Santa is such a fun guy in our house - he leaves gifts for me and my hubs too. He brings useful gifts and a few small presents for everyone, the main gift giving is reserved for the afternoon after christmas lunch (another ritual)

 

He's just the warm up act in our house. My children were never troubled by the 'have you been good?' question - we didn't make a big thing of the snooping - and the rewards for being good were a dead cert, as we practiced positive reinforcement not punishment in their upbringing.

 

I did have an experience when living in Germany, where a child who lived upstairs from us was actually given a shoe full of twigs rather than the usual sweets - for being 'naughty' during the year. (The Santa eqivalent turned up on the 5 Decemeber when we lived in Germany, I guess that's how he makes it round the world huh? and children put their shoes outside the front door for them to be filled with treats or twigs) I guess the really horrid thing about that is I assume the twigs were supposed to be to beat them with - although I may have got that all wrong.

 

I guess we were talking to our children early on about different traditions in different countires and that added to their grasp of how it was a 'tradition' not a truth.

[trashy]

Could belief in Santa be a gateway into belief in 'harder dieties'? For those of you with kids, how do you approach Santa?

 

Yeah, I used to believe in Santa and the next thing ya know I'm addicted to Jesus. But it wasn't enough! I even did a little pentecostal Holy Spirit before I finally started getting off the stuff. It took awhile but I'm finally free from all that junk. It's been almost a year.

 

It'll screw you up, man!

[Jose]

I highly recommend Santa Steps Out by Robert Devereaux... you'll never look at Santa the same way again.

 

Quick synopsis...

 

Tooth Fairy and Santa have sex in a little girl's room. She then begins to equate Christmas with sex. One day, she's all grown up, and Santa bones her and then brings her back to the North Pole. Anya (Mrs. Claus) is jealous, but learns to live with it. The Easter Bunny has a HUGE crush on Mrs. Claus and gets together with the spurned Tooth Fairy to exact revenge on the Clauses.

 

Ver' funny. Ver' entertaining. You never really heard much about it because it takes all the traditional holidays and deities of those holidays and turns them against one another and gives an alternate explanation for who the lesser deities of holidays are and nobody really liked that idea.

 

I thought it was f-ing brilliant though.

[MQTA]

I don't get the opposite. When you tell a kid there's Santa, and Jesus, then you tell him there is no Santa.... but there was a Jesus.... hello?

[Hero of Hyrule]

I and my sister believe in the original Dutch Santa. St.Nicolaus.

 

I think that if you are tricked into believing something that is not real you can eventually equate Santa with any belief and know you can be tricked into believing nonsense.

Also, children are pretty evil at times...If one doesn't believe he/she probably tells the others wich is not very nice for them.

Also, it was fun for my parents to do and it didn't hurt me in any way.

[Pariah]

I would purposely lie to my kids about Santa. I think it teaches kids at an early age to question things, even what their parents tell them.

That's an important lesson.

 

"How many deconversion stories, or arguments put forth by atheists have you read in which someone says, something like "How is (your) God any different than Santa?""

 

I agree.

[HadouKen24]

Eh, I would probably think of Santa as more of an inoculation than anything else. It won't cause more than temporary harm, if any at all, and it will cause children to learn that something isn't true just because an adult tells them so.

[FirstInTheDance]

My kids will definitely believe in Santa. I love Santa! In fact, he was probably one of the BEST parts of my childhood, and I held onto my belief in him as long as possible. I didn't feel betrayed by my parents because they "lied" to me - I felt fortunate that they allowed me to experience the wonder and magic he brought to Christmas. I always pitied the kids who didn't believe in Santa (like my cousins) because I felt they missed out. In fact, since "reality" set in and I stopped believing, Christmas was never quite as much fun again - but I'll always be grateful for those magical childhood Christmases.

[MQTA]

My kids don't believe in Santa, but they sure know the morning of 12/25 is spent at Grandma and Grandpa's eating breakfast and opening a livingroom full of presents. They didn't need a story to go along the opening presents. They KNOW where each one comes from, they're signed To and From. No pretense at all.