pandora Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 I'm just curious if any of you disapprove of homosexuality and/or think that homosexual marriage should not be allowed. Some people on a political board I visit revealed themselves to be against homosexual marriage outside of any religious edict, which disturbed me and made me furious. I think extreme promiscuity is usually harmful to someone involved in those relationships, however, I do not disapprove of pre-marital sex or sex outside of marriage as long as both parties consent. The same applies to homosexuality. I think that gays and lesbians should be allowed to legalize and legally protect their assets and rights through a civil marriage, especially in the context of a loving, committed relationship. I even believed this as a Christian, as I viewed the principle behind marriage is to promote mutually exclusive, committed, loving relationships. I did not see a problem with gays or lesbians commiting their lives to oneanother. I would be shocked to find any ex-christian that feels otherwise, so I am asking. If you are against it, WHY? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 I use to be against homosexuality and gay marriage. Not any more. Before deconverting I went through a phase where I realized the Bible was the word of men. That was when my views on homosexuality changed. Now I realize that as long as everybody is a consenting adult it's none of anybody else's business. I see nothing wrong with pr-marital sex, again as long as everybody is a CA. But I'm lost my enthusiasm for marriage in general. I wouldn't recommend it. I'm going to advise my children to not get married. I think the only reason gays care so much about marriage is because their rights have been violated for so long. Once gays have the power to marry freely they too will realize the flaws of marriage. To all the young adults out there who want to rush into marriage I would advise them to think it over and then think it over some more. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted September 25, 2012 Author Share Posted September 25, 2012 I agree. With divorce being so common, and the family court system being so fucked up, I don't see why anyone gets married anyway. It is a nice way to ensure certain rights and the passing down of estates and inheritances, but more than likely your marriage will end someday if you think it is the end-all be-all way to express a healthy love and commitment. Relationships change over time and most people aren't prepared to have their ideals of life-long romantic love shattered. I see marriage as more of a business partnership... you should marry someone who will help you achieve your goals and who you can live daily life peacefully with. You shouldn't marry just because you are in love, although if that is added into the picture, it certainly makes marriage much more pleasant. Just be prepared if that love doesn't last for a lifetime! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentknight Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 Truthfully, how we feel about it doesn't matter. It's a persons right to love and have sex with whom they please, ad long as that other person is old enough to make that decision legally. That said, even if that wasn't the case, I never had a problem with it. Besides think it was weird when I first heard about homosexuality as a child. I quickly grew out of any fear or loathing. Why should anyone care what adults do that doesn't harm others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentknight Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 I agree. With divorce being so common, and the family court system being so fucked up, I don't see why anyone gets married anyway. It is a nice way to ensure certain rights and the passing down of estates and inheritances, but more than likely your marriage will end someday if you think it is the end-all be-all way to express a healthy love and commitment. Relationships change over time and most people aren't prepared to have their ideals of life-long romantic love shattered. I see marriage as more of a business partnership... you should marry someone who will help you achieve your goals and who you can live daily life peacefully with. You shouldn't marry just because you are in love, although if that is added into the picture, it certainly makes marriage much more pleasant. Just be prepared if that love doesn't last for a lifetime! To each their own. I fully support marriage. I think one just needs to go into it with the right mindset. Don't go into it thinking this person as they are will be the same forever. I think of it as there simply being a person there to share a life with. We will grow together and show each other new ways to see things. We won't always agree, but it wouldn't be fun if we did. But we've made a commitment. It won't be broken lightly. My wife and I have been together 12 years. We are not perfect, but that's ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 Those who honestly want to marry, to make a lasting commitment to their loved ones, should be able to do so and get whatever benefits their state offers them. I don't care who these loved ones are as long as they are human, of legal age and tie the knot out of their own free wills. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMDKitty Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 I'm not sure what my first exposure to the idea of homosexuality (or bisexuality) was (probably Xena, Warrior Princess), but I don't remember having any kind of "ick" reaction, just more of an, "Oh, okay, that... explains a lot." Shortly after that, I came out as bisexual, to a grand reaction of... "Oh. Okay." So, hey, consenting adults? Have at it. Get married, go wild, make a life together, I'll cheer you on. I'm 100% FOR people being happy, man. I have NEVER understood the opposition to Love, and suspect I never will. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inqui Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 A NZ current affairs show ran a poll on gay marriage, and a surprising amount of the people who were against it (that said anything), opposed it because they were against marriage altogether. As for my own views, I think two guys kissing is disgusting and I really don't see the appeal. Does that make me a homophobe? I don't really care to be honest, but if two guys do like kissing or getting it on and they want to be married, it's not my place to judge just because they watch a different kind of porn. If I can accept Steelers fans I can accept homosexuals. It's a similar story for me with abortion. Personally I'm against it, but the reality is that it's a private decision between the woman involved and anyone she chooses to involve with her. My own opinions shouldn't have any bearing on that hypothetical woman's rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzy Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 I'm yet to hear a good argument against homosexuality/gay marriage outside of religious arguments. So if I do not accept the religious teachings then I don't see a reason any more to oppose homosexuality/gay marriage. I'm one of those people who thinks marriage in general is overrated and overhyped, but if people want that they need to be given the opportunity regardless of the gender of both parties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShackledNoMore Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 I curious about these people's religious beliefs. I could certainly see how somebody whose underlying disapproval stems from religion could produce arguments for condemning homosexuality, much the way religious apologists come up with arguments to validate their religion outside of faith. I have not seen any such arguments against homosexuality that are any stronger than those made by religious apologists. I am not at all surprised that most ex-christians do not disapprove of homosexuals. I am a little surprised (in a good way) that I cannot think of a single example of one I have seen condemning them (yet). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MultifariousBirdLady Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 I think that gays and lesbians should be allowed to legalize and legally protect their assets and rights through a civil marriage, especially in the context of a loving, committed relationship. I even believed this as a Christian, as I viewed the principle behind marriage is to promote mutually exclusive, committed, loving relationships. I did not see a problem with gays or lesbians commiting their lives to oneanother. Same here. I began thinking that way while I was still a Christian, too. There are some helpful books out there for Christians who are gay/lesbian/bi. One of them is "Things They Never Told You In Sunday School" by David Day. Those who honestly want to marry, to make a lasting commitment to their loved ones, should be able to do so and get whatever benefits their state offers them. I don't care who these loved ones are as long as they are human, of legal age and tie the knot out of their own free wills. Yup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 Pandora - some people leave the religion but still cling to some of the dogmas they were taught. There really *is* no rational argument against gay marriage, and there really *is* no framework for opposition to it outside of religious indoctrination. There's overwhelming proof that it won't harm society or children, and without that proof there's nothing left of the anti-civil rights movement except a general idea that it's okay to deny others freedoms based upon what you yourself find ickie or uncomfortable. I also recently saw some twat on a comment over on Faux News spout about being an atheist who is against gay marriage and had the same reaction, and I've been chewing all morning on why I was so dumbfounded. But people will believe a lot of things if they hear it often enough, and the religious right's been pushing this issue pretty hard for a few decades. It'll be interesting to see what happens now that they've accepted their loss and are moving on to other fields. I'd love it if ALL marriage was just civil unions and not religious-tinted ceremony. France has been doing this for a while and their religious nuts are freaking out because most marriages done in France are the civil-union variety now rather than being done by clerygpeople. Cain't ya just hear 'em wailing now-- OH NOES WE'RE FADING INTO IRRELEVANCE! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yrth Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 Good chart. I came around to supporting gay marriage shortly after I officially deconverted. As I've mentioned elsewhere, Haidt's writings on morality and disgust were instrumental in changing my mind on this issue. I suspect that most people who oppose gay marriage and homosexuality in general are in the same boat. That is, they have strong feelings on the subject that they can't quite articulate and so they grab on to whatever explanation looks the best. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdog Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 I support gay marriage and not against homosexuality, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninj Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 Eh, even as an Christian, I've never understood the prejudice against homosexuality. I always just figured that it was God's business and not mine. If it was indeed against God's will, then God can sort it all out in the afterlife. Sure, I viewed it (and still do) as icky, but that's just my view. It's not my place to determine how everybody else should view it. If gays want to marry, I say more power to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VacuumFlux Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 I agree. With divorce being so common, and the family court system being so fucked up, I don't see why anyone gets married anyway. It is a nice way to ensure certain rights and the passing down of estates and inheritances... Medical rights are HUGE deal. I know one hetero couple that lived in a domestic partnership for over a decade, but when they got older and needed more medical care, they got married so they'd be able to visit each other in the hospital. Another hetero couple I know got married because he's got a lot of medical issues and it's cheaper for her to get him on her insurance as a spouse than as a domestic partner. For homosexual partners who can't marry, they are often kicked out of the hospital and unable to be there for their dying partner (there is some paperwork you can fill out that's supposed to sorta get you rights close to that, but hospitals don't always respect those and they don't quite give you the same rights that becoming next-of-kin through marriage does). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentknight Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 I guess it's just the romantic in me... but I got married, because I liked the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted September 25, 2012 Author Share Posted September 25, 2012 On a slightly related note, in my state (Indiana) one cannot get married by a secular officiant, except the Justice of the Peace. Our local CFI (a secular group: Center for Inquiry) along with the Indiana branch of the ACLU is challenging this in the state Supreme Court. We have yet to hear if we will be heard on this case... I am anxiously awaiting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted September 25, 2012 Moderator Share Posted September 25, 2012 On a slightly related note, in my state (Indiana) one cannot get married by a secular officiant, except the Justice of the Peace. Our local CFI (a secular group: Center for Inquiry) along with the Indiana branch of the ACLU is challenging this in the state Supreme Court. We have yet to hear if we will be heard on this case... I am anxiously awaiting! Interesting... When I was a Christian, I opposed gay marriage. I was more concerned with saving their souls than treating them equally. I approved of shaming people into salvation, for which I am now ashamed. I now support gay marriage. All that it took for me to change my mind was the freedom to reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeasabird Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 Just going to play devil's advocate for a moment, happy to have someone challenge this line of thought or weigh in. Most religious folks I've talked to about this use the slippery slope argument. They say if you allow this then you also must allow bestiality and incest. The bestiality argument is easy to defeat since an animal cannot give consent, but I don't know how to respond to the incest argument. If we support gay marriage, should we also support marriage between consenting family members? Where do you draw the line here? Technically speaking, I'm not aware of laws banning consenting family members from having sex and procreating; the only ban is in the marriage aspect. So if they really wanted to be together then technically the only thing the law does is keep them from getting married - no different from same sex partners. Am I mistaken at all here? (Full disclosure: I support same sex marriage, again just playing DA). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted September 25, 2012 Moderator Share Posted September 25, 2012 A slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy which ignores the possibility of a middle ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted September 25, 2012 Author Share Posted September 25, 2012 Yes, I agree... but I also wouldn't be bothered if people wanted to marry people from their own families. I don't really care. I seriously doubt people would be lining up at court houses to get married to their cousins or whatever, anyway... except maybe in Kentucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted September 25, 2012 Author Share Posted September 25, 2012 Also, the same goes for polygamy... if people want that, then fine. At least as long as polyandry is allowed too. I couldn't do it myself, but I don't really care if others do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted September 25, 2012 Moderator Share Posted September 25, 2012 First cousins can legally marry in many states: http://marriage.about.com/cs/marriagelicenses/a/cousin.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 Just going to play devil's advocate for a moment, happy to have someone challenge this line of thought or weigh in. Most religious folks I've talked to about this use the slippery slope argument. They say if you allow this then you also must allow bestiality and incest. The bestiality argument is easy to defeat since an animal cannot give consent, but I don't know how to respond to the incest argument. If we support gay marriage, should we also support marriage between consenting family members? Where do you draw the line here? Technically speaking, I'm not aware of laws banning consenting family members from having sex and procreating; the only ban is in the marriage aspect. So if they really wanted to be together then technically the only thing the law does is keep them from getting married - no different from same sex partners. Am I mistaken at all here? (Full disclosure: I support same sex marriage, again just playing DA). I personally don't care if they want to do it. I doubt there's a public interest here unless someone wants to make the case inbred kids are an undue burden on the state. Bottom line, it's not going to fly politically because 1) this isn't a group that gets a lot of sympathy from their neighbors, 2) there aren't enough people it effects to create a social movement large enough to turn public sentiment around on the matter. That leaves them with one option. Sue for the right. For xians using this issue to imply slippery slope as a fear-mongering tactic, they can fuck right off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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