Religion And Narcissism

[Ravenstar]

I would like to qualify this post by saying that I am not suggesting that all religious people are personality disordered, or are malignant narcissists. That would be a generalization that can not be supported.

 

However, I have had much personal experience with narcissism, and have studied it rather extensively. It is rampant in the population, in varying degrees and expressions, as well as in our culture as a whole. There are studies that suggest strongly that narcissism has genetic components, along with sociopathy, which I believe is an extreme form of narcissism.

 

What got me on this train of thought was reading in the Lion's Den. A large majority of the responses from christians (and muslims too) have very strong indications of narcissism. As does the actual system of religious belief and the bible itself.

 

 

These quotations are from:

http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html

A website that deals with malignant narcissism.

 

emphasis mine.

 

 

"The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict themselves. They will do this virtually in the same sentence, without even stopping to take a breath. It can be trivial (e.g., about what they want for lunch) or it can be serious (e.g., about whether or not they love you). When you ask them which one they mean, they'll deny ever saying the first one, though it may literally have been only seconds since they said it -- really, how could you think they'd ever have said that? You need to have your head examined! They will contradict FACTS."

 

I think there is a ton of evidence for this... actually the bible itself does this as has been pointed out many times.

 

"Lacking empathy is a profound disturbance to the narcissist's thinking (cognition) and feeling (affectivity). Even when very intelligent, narcissists can't reason well. One I've worked with closely does something I characterize as "analysis by eggbeater." They don't understand the meaning of what people say and they don't grasp the meaning of the written word either -- because so much of the meaning of anything we say depends on context and affect, narcissists (lacking empathy and thus lacking both context and affect) hear only the words. (Discussions with narcissists can be really weird and disconcerting; they seem to think that using some of the same words means that they are following a line of conversation or reasoning. Thus, they will go off on tangents and irrelevancies, apparently in the blithe delusion that they understand what others are talking about.) And, frankly, they don't hear all the words, either. They can pay attention only to stuff that has them in it. This is not merely a bad habit -- it's a cognitive deficiency."

 

Again... we have seen this played out in our conversations with xtians. The WTF? moments in our conversations with them are pretty much constant.

 

"Narcissists lack a mature conscience and seem to be restrained only by fear of being punished or of damaging their reputations -- though, again, this can be obscure to casual observation if you don't know what they think their reputations are, and what they believe others think of them may be way out of touch with reality (––––––––––––). Their moral intelligence is about at the level of a bright five- or six-year-old; the only rules they recognize are things that have been specifically required, permitted, prohibited, or disapproved of by authority figures they know personally. Anyhow, narcissists can't be counted on not to do something just because it's wrong, illegal, or will hurt someone, as long as they think that they can get away with it or that you can't stop them or punish them (i.e., they don't care what you think unless they're afraid of you)."

 

This seriously frightens me. Some of the comments i have seen from xtians show a serious moral and ethical bankruptcy.

 

"Narcissists feel that, unless they are better than anyone else, they are worse than everybody in the whole world."

 

This is also self-evident in the whole "we are saved and you aren't" thing.

 

"Narcissists are (a) extremely sensitive to personal criticism and ( extremely critical of other people. They think that they must be seen as perfect or superior or infallible, next to god-like (if not actually divine, then sitting on the right hand of God) -- or else they are worthless."

 

This is projected to the tune of, "if YOU aren't christian, YOU are worthless." It sets the stage for atrocity.

 

"Anyhow, narcissists are habitually cruel in little ways, as well as big ones, because they're paying attention to their fantasy and not to you, but the bruises on you are REAL, not in your imagination. Thus, no matter how gently you suggest that they might do better to change their ways or get some help, they will react in one of two equally horrible ways: they will attack or they will withdraw."

 

"They will say you are nothing, worthless, and turn around immediately and say that they love you."

 

"The other "punishment" narcissists mete out is banishing you from their glorious presence -- this can turn into a farce, since by this point you are probably praying to be rescued, "Dear God! How do I get out of this?" The narcissist expects that you will be devastated by the withdrawal of her/his divine attention, so that after a while -- a few weeks or months (i.e., the next time the narcissist needs to use you for something) -- the narcissist will expect you to have learned your lesson and be eager to return to the fold."

 

Doesn't the god of the bible do this?

 

"Narcissists are naive and vulnerable, pathetic really, no matter how arrogant and forceful their words or demeanor. They have pretty good reasons for their paranoia and cynicism, their sneakiness, evasiveness, prevarications. This is the one I get suckered on. They are so out of touch with other people and what goes on around them that they are very susceptible to exploitation. On the other hand, they're so inattentive, and so disconnected from what other people are up to, that they don't recognize when someone is taking advantage of them."

 

"Narcissists I've known also have odd religious ideas, in particular believing that they are God's special favorites somehow; God loves them, so they are exempted from ordinary rules and obligations: God loves them and wants them to be the way they are, so they can do anything they feel like -- though, note, the narcissist's God has much harsher rules for everyone else, including you."

 

"Modern American Christianity is filled with the spirit of narcissism. We are in love with ourselves and evaluate churches, ministers and truth-claims based upon how they make us feel about ourselves. If the church makes me feel wanted, it is a good church. If the minister makes me feel good about myself, he is a terrific guy. If the proffered truth supports my self-esteem, it is, thereby, verified". ~ Monte Wilson

 

"Narcissists are totally and inflexibly authoritarian. In other words, they are suck-ups. They want to be authority figures and, short of that, they want to be associated with authority figures. In their hearts, they know they can't think well, have no judgment about what matters, are not connected with the world they inhabit, so they cling fanatically to the opinions of people they regard as authority figures -- such as their parents, teachers, doctors, ministers."

 

Who is a bigger authority figure than god?

[Guest end3]

I haven't studied it....but here's 2 pennies worth. It's an effort to be known. If we are known, I doubt we would be less narissistic. I would see it as an inward turn towards self knowing and self value.

[bornagainathiest]

I haven't studied it....but here's 2 pennies worth. It's an effort to be known. If we are known, I doubt we would be less narissistic. I would see it as an inward turn towards self knowing and self value.

 

Sorry End, but I don't follow.

 

It (narcissism) is an effort to be known? Known...by others?

 

So if a narcissist makes the effort to be known by others, what has self-knowledge got to do with it?

 

Surely a narcissist has no interest in self-knowledge and is only interested in getting others to know about him/her?

 

Self-knowledge and being known by others seem to be poles apart, to me. One is not the other and, if anything, they're mutually exclusive drives.

 

Can you help me out here please?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[Ravenstar]

What?

 

"If we are known, I doubt we would be less narissistic."

 

I'm sorry, this doesn't make any sense. You doubt narcissists would be less narcissistic if they were known? So they try to be known, or desire to be known by displaying the traits shown above?

 

Maybe I'm dense but i don't get this... can anyone enlighten me here?

[Ravenstar]

Is it a Freudian slip?

[NeverAgainV]

Wow thanks for posting this!! I want to do some more reading about NPD, narcissism & psychopaths. It is very interesting as I read something about NPD & pastors online (maybe Sam Vaknin) & I swear my xpastor fit the description to the T!!!

It was quite a revelation & made me finally realize that I was NOT crazy, but the pastor is a manipulative narcissist. It was a WOW moment.

[Ravenstar]

I have reservations about Sam Vaknin, since he identifies as one (and narcissists LIE) ... but there are other really good websites about narcissism.

 

Narcissists can make anyone feel crazy... it's part of the MO.

[Guest end3]

I just have a hunch it's like anything else we turn to.....if we are not adequately known by others then we turn inwardly in an unhealthy way...just my thoughts....I am not trained by any means.....in other words we revert to knowing ourselves too much so.

[Geezer]

Interesting topic. I realized many years ago that I possessed problematic personality issues. I had a really serious problem with anger. It didn’t take much to set me off. Late in my life I came across a commentary about narcissism. As I read the posted list of symptoms I suddenly realized they were describing me. It wasn’t reassuring to read later in the article that there is no cure for narcissism. Until I read that article I didn’t know why I was the way I was.I took the article seriously and began researching everything I could find about narcissism. I clearly had a lot of symptoms but I apparently wasn’t a full blown narcissist because if I was I wouldn’t have cared about my symptoms or have had a desire to change my behavior. Fortunately, my symptoms weren’t that severe.

 

 

Becoming aware of my condition and tendencies motivated me to make changes in my life. I simply lack the ability to be empathetic , but now that I’m aware of that I force myself to at least act or attempt to be empathetic. I’m not a generous person by nature so I force myself to be generous. I help people in need simply because it’s the right thing to do not because I can honestly say I feel their pain, because I don’t. I have, for all practical purposes, stopped being an angry person, but that doesn’t come naturally. I have to work at it and really concentrate hard to retain control of my emotions when I’m in an emotionally charged environment. It’s been about five years since I became really unglued and lost it. I intentionally avoid, as much as possible, emotionally charged conversations, topics, or situations. If I feel my temperature rising I excuse myself and walk away.

 

So, I am aware there is no cure for narcissism but the symptoms can be controlled, except in extreme cases of narcissism. I’m convinced, by my experience, that narcissistic tendencies can at least be mitigated through education. Most narcissists are not aware of their condition or how others perceive them. I know I wasn’t.

[Ravenstar]

geezer, thank you for sharing

 

I agree that a lot of narcissists are unaware, not all mind you. I applaud your decision to improve yourself... most narcissists would never have the insight that there was anything wrong with them..

 

End3—I still don't understand what you are saying. I'll make a guess though... are you saying that narcissism is caused by the need to be understood?

 

Turning inward would be more depression than narcissism.

 

I would say, from what I know about narcissists, that turning inward is something they avoid, like the plague. It is postulated that pathological narcissists don't actually have a solid 'self'... they create one based on their fantasies...or what they perceive as 'normal' behavior, it's all show, an act so they can survive in society and get their needs met. I think geezers post makes that clear... they don't really understand the inner life and emotions others have—because they don't have it. They can see the outward manifestation of it in others, and if they are WAY worse than geezer they believe we all 'fake it' like they do.

 

geezer, I hope you don't take offense to me using your post as an example. Your description of what it's like is just so apt on this topic.

 

However, the OP was about the similarities of narcissism and religious belief, and the narcissism apparent in the bible and bible god. (though I'm sure it's in the koran as well)

[Ravenstar]

Sorry.. the 'however' was for end3 and to bring the topic back, not geezer. (and I believe education IS helpful, for anything, including personality disorders)

[Akheia]

End, I was married to a guy who fits the OP to a genuine tee. Bet you can guess who that might be! Yup, the fundie preacher. I don't think he really actually wanted anybody to know the "real him." I saw many times that he didn't have a very high opinion of the "real him." He wasn't depressed, either, or turning inward. He was just extremely manipulative and categorically incapable of recognizing others' feelings or even pretending to be empathetic or caring unless there was something in it for him. It's very telling that the insult that upset him the worst--threw him into rages and all but crying jags really and was a guaranteed nuclear war of fight starters--was to call him a loser or pathetic (before you ask, no; I could never have been that cruel).

 

A narcissist's problem isn't knowing himself too well or examining himself too closely, trust me on that one.

[mymistake]

Maybe I'm dense but i don't get this... can anyone enlighten me here?

 

That is just End's style. He is going through some tought times right now so please go easy on him. But nothing is wrong with your understanding.