saxyroze Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 The truth is the absolute truth in the mind of the believer. Why do we instinctually try to change someone else’s belief to match ours? When I was a devote Christian I tried to convince those that I love and people I never knew that Christ was the only way to go. I’d have downright debates and I truly believed that I needed to help bring nonbelievers over. Now that I’m not a Christian and I have strong beliefs against the bible and the Christian religion, when I talk to a Christian I strain myself to not start a debate to prove that I’m right and the other person is wrong. I have a great respect for everyone’s religion and everyone’s life choices, but for some reason, deep inside of me, I still of this odd desire to prove that I’m right. Now, I thought it was just me, that I’m just the kind of person that needs to be right but then I look at some of these threads and comments poking at the Christian religion and demanding that Christianity is faux inside and out. We are right and they are wrong, no ifs ands or buts. And all the other Christian forums I visit from time to time insist that the Bible is the truth, no matter how much evidence is thrown at them. It made me wonder why everyone must persist that their beliefs to be true…why do we feel the need to defend our beliefs? Isn’t it kind of egocentric? Are we just naturally self-centered beings? Or is it that we feel the need to validate our personal beliefs by fighting for it and when the opponent surrenders it assures us that we are indeed right? Or am I just babbling on and it really is just me? Maybe I’m just mentally adjusting to not believing in god therefore I feel the need to defend my new found belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 Isn’t it kind of egocentric? Are we just naturally self-centered beings? Or is it that we feel the need to validate our personal beliefs by fighting for it and when the opponent surrenders it assures us that we are indeed right? Or am I just babbling on and it really is just me? Okay, think about this. We live in a world where people are willing to blow each other and themselves up because of imaginary beings that don't exist. Why should we tolerate the kind of ignorance that says "you deserve to die because my imaginary friend is better than your imaginary friend?" Not to mention, people who would deny equal rights to those who were born differently because a 2,000 year-old book of fiction says they're "evil," or people who want to see our country become like Iran where everyone MUST be Christian, or people who hate others for not following their religion and thinking that they honestly, truly deserve to burn in a mythical place for all of eternity. How is it "egocentric" to dissuade others from believing in imaginary beings, when those very beliefs lead to hate and violence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthenSun Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 Isn’t it kind of egocentric? Are we just naturally self-centered beings? Or is it that we feel the need to validate our personal beliefs by fighting for it and when the opponent surrenders it assures us that we are indeed right? Or am I just babbling on and it really is just me? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Congratulations, you have just passed Psychology 101. Maybe I’m just mentally adjusting to not believing in god therefore I feel the need to defend my new found belief. By all means defend your beliefs, but try not to hurt anyone in the process, especially your friends and family. In the long run its not worth it. In 100 years almost everything we do today will not matter at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 I've never beat a christian over the head and then dragged them by the ear to this forum and forced them to listen to my opinion about their beliefs. On the other hand, my grandmother has once again sent me Christian chain-mail spam. Which of us needed to "show that we are right" more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highvoltage Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 The truth is the absolute truth in the mind of the believer. Why do we instinctually try to change someone else’s belief to match ours? When I was a devote Christian I tried to convince those that I love and people I never knew that Christ was the only way to go. I’d have downright debates and I truly believed that I needed to help bring nonbelievers over. Now that I’m not a Christian and I have strong beliefs against the bible and the Christian religion, when I talk to a Christian I strain myself to not start a debate to prove that I’m right and the other person is wrong. I have a great respect for everyone’s religion and everyone’s life choices, but for some reason, deep inside of me, I still of this odd desire to prove that I’m right. Now, I thought it was just me, that I’m just the kind of person that needs to be right but then I look at some of these threads and comments poking at the Christian religion and demanding that Christianity is faux inside and out. We are right and they are wrong, no ifs ands or buts. And all the other Christian forums I visit from time to time insist that the Bible is the truth, no matter how much evidence is thrown at them. It made me wonder why everyone must persist that their beliefs to be true…why do we feel the need to defend our beliefs? Isn’t it kind of egocentric? Are we just naturally self-centered beings? Or is it that we feel the need to validate our personal beliefs by fighting for it and when the opponent surrenders it assures us that we are indeed right? Or am I just babbling on and it really is just me? Maybe I’m just mentally adjusting to not believing in god therefore I feel the need to defend my new found belief. It's an odd place to be, but I agree with both you and Amethyst. I don't go out and preach my beliefs to others like the xtains do, but I will defend my beliefs if I'm confronted by what is nonsense. In a perfect world, we would all get along and this discussion would not happen, but we don't live in a perfect world and religious nonsense tries to gain as much power as it can over others. Atheists and agnostics are demeaned for their beliefs, and we are constantly forced to debunk the religious myths that are used to relegate us to second class citenzenship. If it weren't for the "religious right" and our rights were not constantly attacked and eroded by religion, I would be much happier to simply live and let live. However, this is not the case, and I will continue to fight for my and others' rights to believe freely, and not seek to empower one mythical view over another as the religionists do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 I don't go out and preach my beliefs to others like the xtains do, but I will defend my beliefs if I'm confronted by what is nonsense. Yeah. I don't go out and preach either. At work and around my family, I pretty much keep my mouth shut unless they initiate a discussion on religion. At work I just say that I don't care to discuss religion. In a perfect world, we would all get along and this discussion would not happen, but we don't live in a perfect world and religious nonsense tries to gain as much power as it can over others. Atheists and agnostics are demeaned for their beliefs, and we are constantly forced to debunk the religious myths that are used to relegate us to second class citenzenship. If it weren't for the "religious right" and our rights were not constantly attacked and eroded by religion, I would be much happier to simply live and let live. However, this is not the case, and I will continue to fight for my and others' rights to believe freely, and not seek to empower one mythical view over another as the religionists do. Almond! I normally do live and let live also, but if someone is very confrontational about their beliefs and in my face, I will stand up for myself. On a site like this, where fundies come for the specific purpose of debating religion, I see no reason to not debate them. They wouldn't come here if they weren't either arrogant or questioning their own beliefs. I know that one or two debates isn't going to change anyone's mind, but at least they'll be able to ask themselves what they really do believe, rather than remain completely brainwashed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MQTA Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 I find when the topic comes up, I say what I think, and then if they continue to deflect, reject, and threaten wages for unbelief, I do what THEY'RE supposed to do. Walk away and let them have their beliefs. Of course, I'm labelled, condemned, and forever more harassed. when I run into people I knew back in 1989-1992 who I haven't seen in a while, ever since then, and still to this day, will call me Satan, the Devil, communistic and any other nasty comments they can think of at the moment while their big fat cross around their neck stares me in the face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asdf99 Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 As an ex-christian I no longer try to force by beliefs on anyone. I too did this as a christian but not any more. I now respect others views and I am fascinated to hear people talk about what they believe and why. It interests me to see how the mind can come up with various thoughts to make something so real to that person. And the more you hear people talk, the more I hear there are literally thousands (probably more) different beliefs out there. So its my belief there is no one set way. People will believe whatever their mind has conditioned them to believe. My entire family except for my brother is still christian but I try to keep all religious conversations on the back burner when at all possible. Because I know if I get into with them it will turn into a heated debate. That is the point!?!?! There is no one set way! So its pointless to argue back and forth about things. Each person believes what they want to believe and life goes on. So be it! I could care less if my mom prays for me every day. IF that gives her satisfaction then that is great for her. Whats great for her is not for me. I entertain my mind by doing other things. Thats really all any of this is. Entertaining and satisfying our minds. I recall a post from a guy named Soil where he says he needs a hero which is why he believes in christianity. Thats his thing so let him be. Its interesting to hear everyones point of view but thats where we should draw the line. Listen, respect, reply but don't preach. Anyway, thats how I look at everything. So I never have a desire to pull someone over to believe what I believe. Because it really doesn't make a difference what people believe. As long as they are not committing crimes then let them do and believe what they want. My existence and your existence will still go one. The only thing we all know for sure is we will die someday. So make the best of what this place has to offer because we may never be here again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthenSun Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 .when I run into people I knew back in 1989-1992 who I haven't seen in a while, ever since then, and still to this day, will call me Satan, the Devil, communistic and any other nasty comments they can think of at the moment while their big fat cross around their neck stares me in the face. Those people must have never grown up. It's sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MQTA Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 Those people must have never grown up. It's sad. The 2 I was thinkin of when I wrote this are in their 60s and 70s! They mean it lovingly, I think. Others may sometimes bring it up I guess to try to push my buttons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gliph Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 The truth is the absolute truth in the mind of the believer. Why do we instinctually try to change someone else’s belief to match ours? When I was a devote Christian I tried to convince those that I love and people I never knew that Christ was the only way to go. I’d have downright debates and I truly believed that I needed to help bring nonbelievers over. Now that I’m not a Christian and I have strong beliefs against the bible and the Christian religion, when I talk to a Christian I strain myself to not start a debate to prove that I’m right and the other person is wrong. I have a great respect for everyone’s religion and everyone’s life choices, but for some reason, deep inside of me, I still of this odd desire to prove that I’m right. I've been struggling with the same thing. After I was "born-again" the reason for challenging other peoples beliefs was because it was what you were "supposed" to do. I was in a group that was all about the conversion. The funny thing is, I didn't like it. It never sat right with me. I understood that they thought it was a good idea and they were very impressed with themselves when they'd show the jesus film to an african tribe... but it never quite sat right with me. Now that I know the truth, I actually want to talk to people about this. I really want to tell my friends and co-workers about this site... it finally seems like the right thing to do... OK, sorry that was my little side-tangent. what i really wanted to say here is that so many people try to do the "right thing" when they are christians, but they are just walking the walk. there is no real reason behind what they are doing besdies its what the are supposed to do. now that you have found what you truely believe, its an even bigger "thing". it no longer has to be a "god" thing and instead its a humanity thing. breaking away from all religion puts all of us on the same page. all 6 or 7 billion of us. so of course you want to shout it from the rooftops because its a wonderful thing... all of us are on the same page and its sooooo simple. why wouldn't you want to tell everyone? hehehe. ugh, i don't know if this made any sense at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 I have a great respect for everyone’s religion and everyone’s life choices, but for some reason, deep inside of me, I still of this odd desire to prove that I’m right. I have zero respect for religion amongst adults with average IQ ratings. How they can believe something as silly as the Santa Clause myth and never question the fact is beyond me. Isn’t it kind of egocentric? Are we just naturally self-centered beings? Or is it that we feel the need to validate our personal beliefs by fighting for it and when the opponent surrenders it assures us that we are indeed right? Or am I just babbling on and it really is just me? It's not egocentric if you are basing your findings on evidence and good logic. I don't know a lot of things in this life but I do know that the christian myth is false. To be fair I've been on both sides and spent a lot of years studying objectively in search of truth. Again, I can't say I have a lock on truth, but there are a few things I know that are not true. Why is this wrong to admit? Like Cerise said, I don't drag anyone to this site to force my views on them, but if they come here trying to force theirs on me I will let them know why I believe they are wrong. I see no harm in it. As I've said many times in response to this issue in the past, if I was still a christian, I would want someone to share the truth with me in a logical way so that I could be free from all the guilt and judgment that is their world. I am so glad to be free from that world why would I not want to help others be free of it as well? I've lived for many years in both shoes so I'm not speaking without empathy here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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