You ever just get tired of it?

[Mr. Neil]

I think I just need a break from Christians for a while. Nothing fruitful ever comes from arguing with them. It's not like the creationist debates where I almost always end up learning more about evolution. I don't learn dick from an apologetics debate, except for maybe new parts of the Bible. Big whoop.

 

Like right now, I'm patiently waiting for Zach to finish his transcript of his latest conversation with Gene Cook. The reason being that I can read what Zach says and skip over all over Gene's comments. If all he's going to do is trap atheists, then it really doesn't make a difference if I hear what he says or not.

 

I'm reasonably satisfied with my conclusions about Christianity. I mean, aside from the whole rising from the dead impossibility (which should actually be the most obvious reason), the plain and simple fact is that the guy can't be the Messiah. The lineage is broken, and the apologetic attempts to fix the problem are bad bad bad bad BAD! As far as I'm concerned, the debate's over.

 

I'm watching that debate over in the Lion's Den with Keven H. What's he trying to do, de-mythicize Jesus? Even if he could establish historicity of the life of Jesus, it wouldn't matter. Jesus can't be the messiah, so anything he presents is irrelevent.

 

I almost jumped into that topic twice, and both times I just closed the window, because it's like beating a dead horse. Actually no... It's more like digging the horse out of the ground, brushing the dirt and worms off of it, reviving it with magical future death-reversing technology, killing it all over again, and then kicking the re-dead carcass a few times. It's just a lot of unnecessary work to accomplish nothing.

 

It's not that I think debating Christians is a waste of time. Well, I mean it kinda is, but it also needs to be done, I suppose. It does produce fruitful results in that other Christians are astonished when their boys don't do that well. It's good when someone tells me that they deconverted because they caught wind of one of my arguments. It's just annoying that it has to come at the expense of my nerves.

 

Maybe I'm just exasperated with the resiliency of belief in Christ. To me, the falsehood of Christianity couldn't be more obvious, so I'm just slack-jawwed at how difficult it is to get this across to the average believer.

[Vigile]

Maybe I'm just exasperated with the resiliency of belief in Christ. To me, the falsehood of Christianity couldn't be more obvious, so I'm just slack-jawwed at how difficult it is to get this across to the average believer.

 

Seriously. And frankly I can't even find it in myself to empathize with their position. Yes I was a xtian for roughly 25 years, but I was fairly simple and uniformed as well. The evidence and logic that I relied on when I first deconverted paled in comparison to the arguments that are presented here yet they doggedly keep coming back for more with a level of intellectual dishonesty that could choke a horse. Kevin is just over the top in his attempts to divert the debate and get us sidetracked on that which isn't important. Likewise his inability to see the over logical flaws in what he calls his premises betrays either a total lack of honesty or a level of stupidity equal to Daniel's. I like the intellectual challenge, but I'm frustrated because these guys are not offering one. Each one comes in with virtually the same arguments and tactics and each one ignores points made that don't fit their predetermined answers.

[crazy-tiger]

I have to admit that I do at times... but then I realise that it's not all in vain.

 

Besides, it can be fun watching them dig themselves so deep that their only way out is to deny their own arguments.

[Amethyst]

Well, yeah, sometimes I get tired of it. If it's obvious that it's going to be futile debating with someone, I'll just let other people bang their heads against the proverbial wall. But it is still entertaining to watch from the sidelines.

[BlueGiant]

Keep in mind Neil, that when most Christians, especially lifelong or particularly devout ones, read something anti-apologetic it should set up a serious amount of cognative dissonance within them, and sometimes even a revulsion to it. The experience is a very strong emotional one, and, in addition to clouding judgement, it can feel like an attack on oneself.

 

This feeling is usually unpleasant and also tends to set off anyone's defenses, and denial is a strong one. People in this position will attack with whatever they can find to attempt to invalidate the argument, as on its face, it goes against what they have internalized as their beleife and, by extension, they themselves. I can remember this fairly well from the process of my deconversion (and it was real interesting when it happened during a homily, kind of a nice kick in the pants)

 

I lucked out that I tend to enjoy strong emotion, even if it is in a less than pleasant circumstance, as it did help wake me up and deconvert.

 

I guess something to keep in mind is that what causes this effect really isn't rational.

[white_raven23]

I should just get a recording of myself saying: "Please provide proof that the bible is the word of god" and play it into the echoing silence of the apologist skull.

 

I've yet to get a real response back from any of them.....our pal Kevin included. They may as well say " I feel that god inspired the bible. My heart tells me so."

 

The obvious problem with that response is even they know it's insufficient as evidence. No different that getting on a witness stand and saying: "Your honor, I don't believe Mr Dahmer killed anyone Sir. He just seems like a nice, quiet, pleasant young man.....that is good enough for me. So he's innocent, let's send him home now."

 

Although.....somewhere in the world......there exists people above the age of ten who are convinced of exactly that.

[Amethyst]

I should just get a recording of myself saying: "Please provide proof that the bible is the word of god" and play it into the echoing silence of the apologist skull.

 

I've yet to get a real response back from any of them.....our pal Kevin included. They may as well say " I feel that god inspired the bible. My heart tells me so."

 

I totally agree. I'm so tired of people who think they have evidence and really don't. Heck, if hearsay was all that was needed to convince everyone, we'd still probably believe in a flat earth and sea dragons living in the deepest parts of the ocean!

[Wertbag]

The wall of ignorance really does sap your will to continue a debate. I've given up talking to several Christians who start off claiming they want an open discussion of facts, and end up spouting bible verses like its the end all book of answers.

One particular chick brought up the crazy notion "Monkeys and humans can't breed, therefore we can't be related"

It was pointed out that we have a common ancestor and are not directly related to other existing primates.

This got a reply of "Stop avoiding the question! You can't explain why we can't breed with monkeys and therefore evolution is wrong"

After half a dozen people tried to explain, charts and graphs were used, and other comparisions to show the point, she just loops back to the same bizarre ideas. You just can't fight ignorance of this type.

[♦ nivek ♦]

Neil,

 

For a young *kid*, someone who isn't edumushkated in a university or skuLLe of science you've got an intelligent head about you, as well as a dry sarcasm that works well when the shit hits the pages here..

 

As much as I'd love for the false premise that religion is to collapse tomorrow, i am sure it won't. the thing we'll have to do is continue to educate one person at a time.

 

Know amigo that thousands of persons never posting here at ExC see your words and read them. you've got an audience that has a great time fllowing along as you train, teach and torment the fuckie, err, fundies...

 

I appreciatecha man.. (But no, you can't have mah beers!)

 

kL

[willybilly30]

I know it’s pointless

But ever since iv read the debates with Daniel I find it so damn funny and I get some kind of adrenaline rush out of its addictive. I love it when everyone spews their insults and bashes them damn its funny.

Yea yea im insane lol

[greasemonkey]

I dunno, I kind of enjoy the arguing to a certain point. Back when I was an x-ian in college, I was on the other end of those arguements a couple of times. I bet with some of these people, it starts to make them think a little bit (it contributed with me). The same old stuff out of them gets really tiring after a while, but that it when you just say "enough!" and move on.

 

...that, and since I have a lot of x-ian friends (not to mention family) that I won't start debating with for respect for our friendship, it gives me an outlet for some frustration I feel when they spout some real nonsense.

[fortunehooks]

neil, you are just exhausted from teaching the visiting xtians to this site on the practice of modern science, and you do deserve a break. man, ever since you came here you have been hard at work. i understand why you feel this way, the way the xtians clutch to their faith in the face of enormous arguments pulling at the toes of hey zeus is frustrating to you. it should be, hell, you know your stuff, and they don't even try to answer you most of the time. the xtians just continue to use the same repetitive stances, and verses and you have become bored with them. neil, they give you no mental challenge in regards to this issue. by all means man, take a break from hurting the feelings of the fundies, who will not open up their minds to understand the realms of science.

[Fweethawt]

A couple of days ago while I was online O Holy Night played from Yahoo... it no longer phased me.

You've obviously never heard Eric Cartman sing it then.

[Fweethawt]

I almost jumped into that topic twice,

Well, you know what they say about the third time being the charm.

 

 

I see that you couldn't resist.

[Guest lugh]

It's not that I think debating Christians is a waste of time. Well, I mean it kinda is, but it also needs to be done, I suppose.

 

It's not really possibly to REALLY debate with someone who has taken out the possbility that the might be wrong. The average Christian doesn't let in the possibly that they could be wrong. After all, isn't doubting god a sin?

 

I understand wanting to to give up debating Christian. Since they always have they trapdoor of faith to get them out of any debate.

[Curtdude]

I think I just need a break from Christians for a while. Nothing fruitful ever comes from arguing with them....

Maybe I'm just exasperated with the resiliency of belief in Christ. To me, the falsehood of Christianity couldn't be more obvious, so I'm just slack-jawwed at how difficult it is to get this across to the average believer.

 

I really appreciate your posts, MrNeil. Even though I don't participate in debates, I learn from the more educated here and value your scientific and philosophical insights.

 

When I deconverted in the middle of university education, my well-meaning evangelical mother told me that my "apostacy was because of all that learning I was getting." In other words: "making me question things; making waves; better to sit back, just have faith, and basically shut your mind down. Less stress. Easier on the whole brainwashing thing."

 

True Believers are resilient because like all myths and brainwashing, they have rejected the only way out: rational thought. This is evil and leads to the path of destruction. All religions at some point use this. Even liberal ones that accept everybody as going to heaven or whatever. They still have no proof in a deity and have to "have faith - trust their feelings."

 

So even though you're (for good reason) tired of hitting your head against a brick wall, your posts are not in vain. Christians may not be listening, but some us apostates are.

[Mr. Neil]

It's not really possibly to REALLY debate with someone who has taken out the possbility that the might be wrong. The average Christian doesn't let in the possibly that they could be wrong. After all, isn't doubting god a sin?

 

I understand wanting to to give up debating Christian. Since they always have they trapdoor of faith to get them out of any debate.

Every now and then, I forget the one thing that makes it all worthwhile. That is the fact that other people learn.

 

Heck, I was just saying in another part of the forum that I entirely expect some of these boobs to declare victory and storm off. And you know what? Let 'em! Their evasions hardly go unnoticed by their fellow Christians. The best luck I've had in freeing other minds from the Christ cult is not by engaging them, but rather demonstrating how poorly these Christian punks perform in debate.

[asdf99]

When your debating with another christian its easy to go round and round in circles. At some point you just need to agree to disagree. But its defiantly important because after all who wants to live a lie? When I was a christian I wanted desperately for others to believe it because I believed it was truth. Now its sort of opposite. If someone wants to believe the lies of Christiainity that is their business. But on the other hand if I can offer my opinions and that will help them I think thats important. I can still recall a religious discussion I had with one of my associates when I was a christian and he said "you actually believe the stories of adam and eve are true? Those are fables! Not true stories!" That one statement sparked the fire in me to question the validity of christianity. After years of struggling, I finally left the faith and now I'm free! So without that guy I could still be stuck with the virus of the mind.

[Nihil]

Neil's post

 

Word.

 

Hell, I don't think I've ever debated a xian here, but even so I'm getting sick and tired just from reading the debates. My eyes just kinda glaze over and skip the xian posts. I mean, you read enough recycled and/or moronic arguements, and it all just starts to look like "Blah blah blah blah"....

[MQTA]

they start sounding like Charlie Brown's teacher

 

wah wah wah womp wah wa womp wew

[Wertbag]

Talking about close minded Christians I'm always amazed at how they can claim they are correct even when the evidence is piled against them. This particular discussion was going on in regards to creationists believeing all humanoid fossils are fakes:

 

"Believe what you want. They were all shown up as hoaxes, talk origin or not. "

 

"You obviously believe what you want, because Answering Genesis, the foremost website advocating YEC, denies that they were all shown to be hoaxes. When both the YEC and the evolutionists disagree with you, chance are your facts are wrong."

 

"Trust me, I will continue to believe the truth that God has revealed to us in His Word. Anything other than that is a deception propagated by the enemy. Believe it or not."

 

 

So basically the creationists don't agree, the evolutionists/scientists don't agree, but because hes got his book of myths at hand hes happy to ignore the facts and stick to his old beliefs.

I just can't understand that mind set, and I won't get involved in a debate with someone like that as you just know it won't go anywhere.

[Reality Amplifier]

I almost jumped into that topic twice, and both times I just closed the window, because it's like beating a dead horse. Actually no... It's more like digging the horse out of the ground, brushing the dirt and worms off of it, reviving it with magical future death-reversing technology, killing it all over again, and then kicking the re-dead carcass a few times. It's just a lot of unnecessary work to accomplish nothing.

 

Neil, you gave me some inspiration here to update the Lakota Tribal Wisdom about dead horses.

 

Lakota tribal wisdom tells us that when you discover you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

 

In Christian apologetics, other strategies are often tried with the dead horse of their religion, including the following:

 

1. Claiming their book of horse mythology was written by their horse, because their sacred book of horse mythology says it was written by the horse.

2. Creating newer, updated versions about their book of horse mythology to better explain away contradictions of the old one

3. Explaining that all remaining “apparent” contradictions within their horse mythology are being taken out of context. Once you understand the context of the dead horse, it makes sense.

4. Clarify that it’s important to remember that you have to first believe in their dead horse, in order to believe in their dead horse. Once you believe their dead horse, you’ll then actually believe in their dead horse...

5. Threatening those who don't worship or believe in their horse with eternal horse whipping

6. Setting up weekend meetings to praise and worship the dead horse

7. Deriding other mythologies with their own separate dead horses as being false horses. They have the only true dead horse

8. Creating over 3000 different denominations of dead horse clubs, each with their own unique style of dead horse riding

9. Harnessing three dead horses together for an all powerful triumvirate of dead horses.

10. Reclassifying all other dead horses except theirs as living-impaired, false, or mythological

11. Creating a motto that says "Our horse has risen from the dead"

12. Believing that only by being covered with dead horse blood can you be saved from eternal horse whipping.

13. Arguing that the world shows evidence of having been designed by the dead horse. Just look at all the room for running....

14. Sagaciously saying the dead horse works in mysterious ways

15. The ways of the dead horse are beyond our powers of riding comprehension. Only if we were also a dead horse could we hope to understand the riding ways of the dead horse. Since we aren’t a dead horse ourselves, there really no point in trying to judge the dead horse.

16. "Hi there! Our horse loves you! Please take this tract about about our dead horse."

17. Or, if all else fails, promote the leader of the dead horse club . . . to President.

 

Please feel free to add to this list.

[white_raven23]

Neil, you gave me some inspiration here to update the Lakota Tribal Wisdom about dead horses.

 

Lakota tribal wisdom tells us that when you discover you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

 

In Christian apologetics, other strategies are often tried with the dead horse of their religion, including the following:

 

1. Claiming their book of horse mythology was written by their horse, because their sacred book of horse mythology says it was written by the horse.

2. Creating newer, updated versions about their book of horse mythology to better explain away contradictions of the old one

3. Explaining that all remaining “apparent” contradictions within their horse mythology are being taken out of context. Once you understand the context of the dead horse, it makes sense.

4. Clarify that it’s important to remember that you have to first believe in their dead horse, in order to believe in their dead horse. Once you believe their dead horse, you’ll then actually believe in their dead horse...

5. Threatening those who don't worship or believe in their horse with eternal horse whipping

6. Setting up weekend meetings to praise and worship the dead horse

7. Deriding other mythologies with their own separate dead horses as being false horses. They have the only true dead horse

8. Creating over 3000 different denominations of dead horse clubs, each with their own unique style of dead horse riding

9. Harnessing three dead horses together for an all powerful triumvirate of dead horses.

10. Reclassifying all other dead horses except theirs as living-impaired, false, or mythological

11. Creating a motto that says "Our horse has risen from the dead"

12. Believing that only by being covered with dead horse blood can you be saved from eternal horse whipping.

13. Arguing that the world shows evidence of having been designed by the dead horse. Just look at all the room for running....

14. Sagaciously saying the dead horse works in mysterious ways

15. The ways of the dead horse are beyond our powers of riding comprehension. Only if we were also a dead horse could we hope to understand the riding ways of the dead horse. Since we aren’t a dead horse ourselves, there really no point in trying to judge the dead horse.

16. "Hi there! Our horse loves you! Please take this tract about about our dead horse."

17. Or, if all else fails, promote the leader of the dead horse club . . . to President.

 

Please feel free to add to this list.

 

 

I LOVE this!!! I hope the mods see it! It should be saved for posterity somewhere in the site!!

 

Excellent!

 

I want it on a T-shirt!!

[Checkmate]

..........Dead Horse Wisdom........

Please feel free to add to this list.

Love it! I will now add this to my collection of Jibes and Barbs that I will send in e-mail response to Christian spammers. Thanks.

[Ro-bear]

[what Neil said]

 

Yes I do. I get tired of politics, too. Plus the media. Sometimes I think it would be pleasant to simply withdraw from the world at large for an extended period. If I weren't married with children, I would do it for a month or so in the summer. Meanwhile, I content myself with the occasional beer-fueled mini-vacation at my favorite darts bar.

 

I'd like to be away from fundies long enough to miss them.

 

Can't happen here in East Tennessee.

 

We need an Ex-C cruise or something.