All we are is dust in the wind.

[Mr. Neil]

Christians always seem to harp on atheism for things that really have nothing to do with whether or not gods exist. They're always blathering on about how if atheism is true, then the kindest person (Mother Teresa)* has the same fate as the cruelest person (Hitler). Christians have a conniption fit over the notion that we don't actually go anywhere when we die. In fact, it seems to me that they're arguing that we're too special to be just another natural phenomenon in a godless universe and that God must exist, because death without punishment or reward is unfair. My favorite analogy of this is that of the finite bag of organic compounds complaining about the fact that he's just a finite bag of organic compounds.

 

But what kind of argument is this? Idealistic fairness has no relevence in reality. I don't see how any of this has anything to do with the validity of Christianity or naturalism. These arguments seem like non sequiturs to me, because the logic doesn't follow through to the point that the theist is trying to make, which is that Christianity is true. This sort of argumentation falls back on idealism, where the Christian is trying to appeal to our desires, that it would be nice to have higher meaning, in order to suggest that it's actually true.

 

I've heard Christians literally and shamelessly employ this very argument:

1. In atheism, there is no belief in salvation or punishment.

2. There should be salvation and punishment.

3. Atheism is wrong.

4. God exists.

 

I've tried requesting a coherent explanation of how the logic flows in such an argument, and much to my astonishment (or perhaps not), I've yet to hear it.

 

So, Christians, give it your best shot. Why is it bad to believe that we don't go anywhere when we die, and how does it have anything to do with whether or not Christianity is true?

 

__________________________

* About Mother Teresa... I know that MT's "kindness" and "wisdom" is not without serious question, but I was merely paraphrasing things I'd heard from the mouths of apologists, primarily presuppositionalist wackjob, Gene Cook.

[Sokudo Ningyou]

I always like to label them "spiritual agoraphobes." They need their four walls and a roof; the vast infinite of space and nature scares them simply because there aren't any safe boundries for them to define. Whereas we athiests are perfectly comfortable not having them, because they don't exist. I pointed that out to my roommate once; the whole reason God exists is because they need a start to the universe, because the possibility of the universe being the orobouros is repugnable to them. Yet when I asked then what created God, he said "God did." Well, if he can't handle the universe not having a beginning and an end, how can he handle an invisible being humans created to make a beginning and end....not have a beginning of its own?

 

He also says, in deference to kindness, tolerance, and understanding, I'm the most Christian person he's ever known, out of all of his God-believing ex-girlfriends, family, and church members. Which is always when I say, "And that's exactly why I'm not a believer."

[Thurisaz]

Yes, it would be nice if there was something like salvation and punishment, to catch those criminals we humans don't catch, and to reward those good people we fail to properly reward. But what happens to us after we die (if anything at all) is nothing we can influence, thus it's our damn duty to first try to make this world (which we can influence) a better place. And without a willingness to face the truth, even if it happens to be a nasty one, you won't have much of a chance to change anything.

[I Broke Free]

thus it's our damn duty to first try to make this world (which we can influence) a better place.

 

Agreed

 

Accepting the concept of a god that doles out justice for everyone sounds nice on the surface, but the end result is apathy on the part of believers. We all need to accept the responsibility of making THIS life just for everyone. It will never happen as long we leave up to sky-daddy.

[Vixentrox]

Depending on the sect you talk to, Mother theresa is buring in hell. And Hitler may be in heaven if he accepted Jesus at the last moment.

[dustmouse]

And the same sects that say MT may be in hell say that Pope John Paul II may be in hell too, along with every other person of the catholic church who has done good. Not to mention all those people who have ever lived who didn't believe in 'god' at all. :gasp:

 

 

Good point though, Sokudo, about the beginning of the universe vs. the beginning of a creator thing!

[Lokmer]

Christians always seem to harp on atheism for things that really have nothing to do with whether or not gods exist.  They're always blathering on about how if atheism is true, then the kindest person (Mother Teresa)* has the same fate as the cruelest person (Hitler).

 

The interesting twist is that Christianity as Protestants understand it (i.e. those who confess and believe will be saved), many of history's infamous criminals - such as Hitler and Calvin - will be in heaven. As a Christian I spent many years wrestling with the twin concepts that Hitler would be sharing my fate, and that I was thus qualitatively similar to Hitler inasmuch as I have monstorous parts of my heart that **could** do what he did if there were not other parts holding me in check (the "better angles" idea). As a result, I spent a long, long time learning to love that which was ugly and cruel, and finding the beautiful and lovable things in people who were utterly unlovable. The living of this metaphor of grace I found to be supremely rewarding, but it does come at the expense of any fantasy of revenge or desire for the punishment of another. Though it did not abolish my zeal for justice, it removed for me the taking of delight in the pains of another.

 

So now, when I hear a Christian complaining about a lack of final justice, I can do little but shake my head. Final Justice? The Christian God is unjust - and boasts of being such - bestowing grace upon whom he will and punishment upon whom he will, independantly of any human value system. Christianity DESTROYS the concept of justice, and people who hold on to it as a justification against atheism aren't even arguing for justice, but engaging in a sophistic revenge fantasy and blood in a manner that allows them for shifting responsibility for their own evil desires onto the person of their God, allowing them all the pleasure of sadism without any of the pangs of conscience.

 

Give me justice, here and now, and the option to be graceful, and I'm one happy guy.

But please, hold the bullshit revenge fantasies - and don't tell me that your sadism proceeds from a God of "Love."

 

-Lokmer

[Merlinfmct87]

__________________________

* About Mother Teresa... I know that MT's "kindness" and "wisdom" is not without serious question, but I was merely paraphrasing things I'd heard from the mouths of apologists, primarily presuppositionalist wackjob, Gene Cook.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not true. Allow me to bless you with the light of Christopher Hitchens...

 

Less than Miraculous

 

Mother Teresa's Crimes Against Humanity

 

Mommie Dearest

 

Happy reading, and make sure you take your blood pressure meds if any...

 

Merlin