requesting help- US not a Xtian country damnit!

[Groggen]

A friend of mine forwarded this Andy Rooney garbage email to me. Can anyone help me find some sources/quotes/web sites which show that the US was founded by Deists, not Christians. Some of them were Christians of course, but it was definitely not founded on Christian principles.

 

==-==

by Andy Rooney:

 

DID YOU KNOW? As you walk up the steps to the building which houses the U.S. Supreme Court you can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law givers and each one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full frontal view . it is Moses and he is holding the Ten Commandments!

 

As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door.

 

As you sit inside the courtroom, you can see the wall, right above where the Supreme Court judges sit,

a display of the Ten Commandments!

 

There are Bible verses etched in stone all over the Federal Buildings and Monuments in Washington, D.C.

James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our Constitution" made the following statement:

"We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

 

Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our country said:

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ".

 

Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid preacher, whose salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777.

 

It is said that 86% of Americans believe in God. Therefore, it is very hard to understand why there is such a mess about having the Ten Commandments on display or "In God We Trust" on our money and having God in the Pledge of Allegiance. Why don't we just tell the other 14% to Sit Down and SHUT UP!!!

 

==-==

[godlessgrrl]

The debate as to the religious position of the Founders is a hot one. I got some good news and some bad news for ya though.

 

The good news is that a number of them were Deists. Ben Franklin and Thomas Paine come to mind here. The bad news is the rest of them identified as Christian, of one stripe or another - Unitarian, Quaker, or whatever. (The ratio of Christian to non- or marginally-Christian is something like 55:3.)

 

That said, I'm assuming that you're posting this question and the request for info because you've run up against some nad who's arguing that the Founders were Christians, therefore the US is a Christian nation, therefore Christianity should become the official (or at least most heavily promoted & supported) religion of the US, and everybody should follow Christian morality and laws. Which argument is bunk. And I'd target that argument, not the issue of the religious convictions of the Founders themselves.

 

My understanding as an American is that the Founders held their own personal convictions about religion, and they were largely Christian in position, but that they made an effort to create a secular, non-religious government as a way of ensuring that religious freedom would not be compromised. I don't think that they intended for religion to be suppressed or left out of life at all, just that no religion had any place being endorsed by government sponsorship.

 

It does not follow that simply because the Founders were largely Christian that this should be a legally Christian nation. It's flawed logic. The only thing that follows or that can be concluded from the Founders being Christian is that they identified themselves as Christians. Period. I'd probably make the argument that what determines the religious bent (or not) of the US as a nation is the law, not the opinions of people who created the government. And the Constitution, last I checked, is the law of the land. Look in there and see what it has to say - in its entirety, not just the Bill of Rights - about God, Christianity, and whether or not America is supposed to be a Christian theocracy.

 

I do have one other piece of minor bad news for you: America is a Christian nation - culturally. That's where I think the religion of the Founders makes a difference, at least in the sense that they were part and parcel of the whole process of America coming into existence. Culturally, the folks who are in charge have had a Christian mindset. I don't see mosques or Buddhist temples on every street, I see churches of one Christian denomination or another. And something like 75% of Americans (according to the Pew Foundation) identify as being Christian. Really, I don't think we can get away from that.

 

But again, just because the argument can be made that America is Christian culturally, doesn't mean that the laws need to be structured into a Christian theocracy. The remaining 25% of us would really have a problem with that, and in any case, again, freedom of religion is supposed to be an American value. (Theoretically.)

 

In any case, here's a few links that might help.

http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm

http://www.borndigital.com/founders.htm

http://altreligion.about.com/library/weekly/aa070202a.htm

http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/debate.htm This guy has a whole site about the topic, and other related topics.

 

And, for a conservative position, to help understand what you're up against:

http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article4086.html

 

And doubtless others here can provide even better links, since honestly, I'm not that good at debate, and it's kind of late, so I'm a bit wonky. (Translate: I'd rather be lazing around websurfing than digging deep into US history books.)

 

Hope this helps. And thanks for reading this really long response, if you got all the way through it.

[Chad3232132]

A friend of mine forwarded this Andy Rooney garbage email to me. Can anyone help me find some sources/quotes/web sites which show that the US was founded by Deists, not Christians. Some of them were Christians of course, but it was definitely not founded on Christian principles.

 

==-==

by Andy Rooney:

 

DID YOU KNOW? As you walk up the steps to the building which houses the U.S. Supreme Court you can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law givers and each one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full frontal view . it is Moses and he is holding the Ten Commandments!

 

As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door.

 

As you sit inside the courtroom, you can see the wall, right above where the Supreme Court judges sit,

a display of the Ten Commandments!

 

There are Bible verses etched in stone all over the Federal Buildings and Monuments in Washington, D.C.

James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our Constitution" made the following statement:

"We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

 

Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our country said:

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ".

 

Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid preacher, whose salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777.

 

It is said that 86% of Americans believe in God. Therefore, it is very hard to understand why there is such a mess about having the Ten Commandments on display or "In God We Trust" on our money and having God in the Pledge of Allegiance. Why don't we just tell the other 14% to Sit Down and SHUT UP!!!

 

==-==

 

 

Well quite a few of the Founders of America were not Christians. Here is some info on George Washington who was a Deist and NOT a Christian as so many want to believe.

 

This excerpt is from Wikipedia:

"There is considerable evidence that he (like a number of Founding Fathers of the United States) was a Deist—believing in God but not believing in revelation or miracles."

 

For the whole article take a look at : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_washin...ligious_beliefs

 

 

 

I know there were many more Founders who were not Christian. I'll post some more stuff for ya tomorrow when I get time if someone doesn't beat me too it.

[LloydDobler]

Most of that email is bullshit (clicky) and it is very unlikely that it was penned by Andy Rooney.

[Caretaker]

......capslock shit

 

Seven sixteenths of one inch:

 

quit leeching

 

That's the distance you'd have to move your pinky in order to not sound like an idiot. I know the burden of pressing shift to capitalize is a great one, but c'mon Levi, you can do better than that. I used to type emails in caps like yours, but then I decided that I didn't want a job mixing concrete.

[Vigile]

There is no effin' way that was written by Andy Rooney.

 

When I got the same I replied to all with that statement.

[Caretaker]

And you know what? Until someone comes chasing after you with an axe, and Christians left and right are being slaughtered, shut your g#$-d%@mned f*&king piehole about being persecuted!

[Vigile]

 

 

Don't go away mad Levi, just go away.

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

A friend of mine forwarded this Andy Rooney garbage email to me. Can anyone help me find some sources/quotes/web sites which show that the US was founded by Deists, not Christians. Some of them were Christians of course, but it was definitely not founded on Christian principles.

 

==-==

by Andy Rooney:

Andy Rooney did not write this. I've received this exact garbage from christians for years. Some of it was written by a rabid christian fundy in Texas (I can't remember his name right now).

 

What I find interesting (but not unexpected) is that christians resort to lies, such as attributing this drivel to Mr. Rooney, in a sad attempt to sell their propaganda.

[BlueGiant]

Lying for the faith. Wouldn't be the first time, definately not the last. You'd think Rooney would rant about the abuse of his name (does anyone want to draw his attention to this?)

[Ro-bear]

Just how trollish are we going to allow Levi to be? Should I go ahead and do the iggy thing? It would have more impact if we all acted in unison.

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

Lying for the faith. Wouldn't be the first time, definately not the last. You'd think Rooney would rant about the abuse of his name (does anyone want to draw his attention to this?)

I think this may be new - this attribution of this nonsense to Andy Rooney. This is the first time I've seen his name on it.

 

Here's another reason I know Rooney didn't write this. It's very likely that this is an effort to punish him for his comments against fundamentalist christians...

 

Rooney also attributed voters' reliance on religion in the recent election to ignorance. "I am an atheist," Rooney said. "I don't understand religion at all. I'm sure I'll offend a lot of people by saying this, but I think it's all nonsense."

 

He said Christian fundamentalism is a result of "a lack of education. They haven't been exposed to what the world has to offer."

Quote from here.

[Vigile]

 

And one more reason: Mr. Rooney can actually write and has a sense of humor when doing so. This piece was obviously written up by an uneducated rabid fundy; all of which Andy is not.

[Taphophilia]

I thought Andy Rooney was an Athiest. Is this the same Andy Rooney on 60 minutes? My mother hates him and thinks he's evil because he said that anyone who believes in God is mentally ill or something along those lines

 

Taph

[Taphophilia]

I also want to add that the US Constitution is based on English Common Law. It is NOT based on the Bible or the 10 Commandments.

 

That idiot Pat Robertson is a freaking attorney. He outright lies or he didn't pay any attention in law school.

 

Taph

[MQTA]

maybe it's not the same letter, but I thought I saw that posted on CF as being from PAUL HARVEY

[Zach]

Trolling post has been deleted.

[Japedo]

It's been mainly debunked (parts supported) Here's a brief, and a link...

 

 

 

 

Origins: Although

the intent of this piece is presumably to demonstrate a government endorsement of Judeo-Christian tradition through the symbols and words used in U.S. federal buildings and the writings of America's founding fathers, nearly all of the information its presents is inaccurate or — when taken in its proper context — misleading.

 

As you walk up the steps to the Capitol Building which houses the Supreme Court you can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law givers and each one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full frontal view — it is Moses and the Ten Commandments! The United States Capitol does not house the Supreme Court of the United States. The Supreme Court has met in its own building since 1935.

 

The two representations of Moses which adorn the Supreme Court building both present him in a context in which he is depicted as merely one of several historical exemplars of lawgivers, not as a religious figure. (This is why, for example, the Supreme Court of the United States rejected appeals to overturn a decision ordering the removal of a monument to the Ten Commandments from an Alabama courthouse — the monument did not present the Ten Commandments in a context other than as quotations of Biblical verse and was therefore deemed an unconstitutional state endorsement of religion.)

 

The depiction referred to here is a sculpture entitled "Justice the Guardian of Liberty" by Hermon A. McNeil, which appears on the eastern pediment of the Supreme Court building. (The eastern pediment is the back of the Supreme Court building, so this sculpture is not something one would see "walking up the steps to the building which houses the Supreme Court." The front entrance is on the western side.) The sculpture was intended to be a symbolic representation of three of the Eastern civilizations from which our laws were derived, personified by the figures of three great lawgivers: Moses, Confucius, and Solon (surrounded by several allegorical figures representing a variety of legal themes):

 

 

McNeil described the symbolism of his work thusly:

 

Law as an element of civilization was normally and naturally derived or inherited in this country from former civilizations. The "Eastern Pediment" of the Supreme Court Building suggests therefore the treatment of such fundamental laws and precepts as are derived from the East. Moses, Confucius and Solon are chosen as representing three great civilizations and form the central group of this Pediment.

Note also that the two other lawgiver figures (Confucius and Solon) are not "facing [the] one in the middle" (i.e., Moses) as claimed here — all three of the lawgivers are depicted in full frontral views, facing forward. (The allegorical figures who flank the lawgivers are facing towards the middle, but they are looking in the direction of all three men, not just Moses.) And although many viewers might assume Moses is holding a copy of the Ten Commandments in this depiction, the two tablets in his arms are actually blank.

More:

 

Snopes

[Vixentrox]

Good ole Snopes.

[LloydDobler]

Plagiarized joke

If you're going to plagiarize maddox word for word, give him credit instead of trying to pass yourself off as funny.

 

Maddox burning a capslock user.

[♦ nivek ♦]

Plagiarized joke

If you're going to plagiarize maddox word for word, give him credit instead of trying to pass yourself off as funny.

 

Maddox burning a capslock user.

 

Thanks Lloyd, I knew I'd seen that prior before..

 

Khan, you know the rules on plagarization buds. Credit/url/notation or post gets nuked. Feel free to fix your post at any time.

 

kL

[Groggen]

Thanks everyone for responding. That snopes link could not be a more perfect rebuttal. And the actual Rooney quote "I am an atheist." The guy who sent this email to me (my best friend when we were kids) - I can't wait to see how he responds.