dB-Paradox Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Had a conversation with a Christian a while back, and just recently thought of the dialogue again. It was about free will, disobedience, and how it relates to our eternal salvation. He was trying to convince me that my apostasy was my rejection, or disobedience rather, of God the father. He drew upon an analogy where he said his children have a choice whether or not to obey him if he tells them not to eat a cookie from the cookie jar. And he said I was like the disobedient child not listening to my heavenly father. A few points that struck me as odd, but seemed to fit perfectly well with his analogy in his own mind... He may very well have told his children to not eat any cookies from the cookie jar, but God has told me nothing. Not a single word! And if he wants to insist on the bible being God's way of telling me "not to eat cookies", then he's got mountains to overcome. First off, the bible was not written by God. To use the bible as an example of a father telling his child not to eat cookies, is the same as saying the next door neighbor wrote a note saying, "Don't eat any cookies from the cookie jar. Signed, Dad." and then having the mail man deliver the note to the children next door. The children see it's not dad's handwriting, and so know it wasn't written by dad. Furthermore, dad didn't even give them the note. In fact, they don't even know where the note originated, or who wrote it in the first place. Should they even care what the note says? As far as they care, it's just garbage. If dad wanted to tell them not to eat any cookies, then he could have very well told them himself. That's the first problem with this Christian's example of me disobeying God. The second comes with the punishment for disobeying. Is this father seriously saying that if his kids disobey him, and eat a cookie from the cookie jar, that it somehow justifies the Christian doctrine of hell? Like, what the...hell! There isn't a damn thing my children could do to, or against me, to make me want to torture them slowly for the rest of their lives. And that's a finite amount of time! Hell is apparently infinite! An infinite punishment of torture for a finite crime. Nice! This Christian father is unknowingly a better father, a more loving father than his so-called heavenly father. I wonder where he got his compassion? If he was created in the image of God, then shouldn't his parenting style resemble God's a little more? A LOT more! 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquareOne Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Bangarang dB-Paradox! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted February 5, 2013 Moderator Share Posted February 5, 2013 Excellent db.....excellent!! ***** I needed that reminder of why I don't 'follow' the christian god anymore. Thanks for posting that!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 * nevermind mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dB-Paradox Posted February 6, 2013 Author Share Posted February 6, 2013 my only regret is that he didn't get to hear all these points before he walked away. but then again, he walked away. I shouldn't complain! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrianime Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 Very cool. Another point is that your actual father could and may punish you for disobeying him (taking the cookie). You can perceive this punishment, not just think about it. I've never seen a punishment from god. Have you? But at the very least, the comparison fails because you can perceive your actual father, while you cannot perceive a god. Apples and oranges. Or more like apples and nothing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
movingon Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 Thanks for that analogy. That's a very good reminder of why my faith feel apart, at least somewhat. Is very true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HitchWithMe Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 A very good point, it's a shame it fell on deaf ears. Free will may be the last bastion which faith may lean its weight. An earth centered universe, an immaculate conception, a 6,000 year old planet etc...all have been held to vehemently as a crutch for faith, and subsequently abandoned when proff tore away the charade. Faith has become more and more a vapor in light of continuing modernity. Now, free will is being brought under the microscope as well. Just finished Sam Harris' book "Free Will." The book is a 65 page treatise on how free will as we have come to define it is illusion. How institutions of faith will spin this new bit is unclear...but damage control is inevitable. Get the book if you can - worth your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dB-Paradox Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 I'm going to look at Sam Harris' book, Free Will! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurari Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 Well said! Your Christian's analogy is so childish it's almost cute. The fact is, God doesn't even do half as much as a mortal father telling his child not to eat from the cookie jar. That's just pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liesbet Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 So true! Needed this reminder again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 Very well done! I'd like to add that punishment of a child should not be revenge, it is meant as a means of correction. When a child does something he was asked not to do then it is the parents responsibility to hold the child accountable (to his/her maturity level) and tailor a corrective consequence. It is useless if the child does not understand why what he did was wrong... it is useless if it's only punitive - because that doesn't address the problem... it is useless if it's done in anger as the child will only learn to fear the anger of the parent and not learn why he shouldn't have done, whatever it was. This only teaches the child that the parent is in control.. it becomes a power play, and ultimately is abusive and fosters unthinking rebellion as the child asserts his independence at some point. Good parents will instruct the child by helping him work out for himself why his behavior was wrong. The 'punishment' is only a means of drawing attention to the fact that all out behavior has consequences.. and is only the beginning of the actual instructive opportunity a child's bad behavior can open up for a parent to teach the child self-control and to develop his own value system. Now compare this to christian doctrine... How is hell instructive? It just isn't.. it's punitive.. it's the revenge fantasies of a bronze age peoples. It's the subconscious terror of adults who grew up in a punitive system and on the level of their inner child still believe they are bad little kids who can never 'earn' the love of a distant and angry and 'perfect' parent... it's the sociological and cultural equivalent of the effects of pervasive child abuse. It's a existential, racial low self-esteem... mythologized and internalized. God is the 'perfect' (and abusive) parent that can never be pleased. It's a psychological way to feel, 'in control' in a life where real control is rare.. and it's highly neurotic. Watch carefully.. the one thing christians (and other religious people) can not abide... is uncertainty. It's very immature thinking.. like a child and magickal thinking. Hell is a horrid and awful immoral monstrosity.. it's also intimately related to childrens' fears and terrors. When children are abused they blame themselves.. they have to, psychologically and emotionally, because they have no power.. and that's how they maintain their sanity in a world that is very big and frightening. Hell and christianity are, I suggest, exactly the same.. just with a whole lot of adult sophistry around it for rationalization. Without god... ie: the parent.. the child has to grow up and take responsibility, and that is terror inducing in the child. Sorry, I'm kind of jumping all over the place here - but this line of thinking about hell and religion is all related. I hope I made sense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 and yes.. I am suggesting that religion is psychologically immature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dB-Paradox Posted March 2, 2013 Author Share Posted March 2, 2013 Those were really good points, Ravenstar. I was born into an abusive home, and so I can really relate to the whole "fear the anger" mentality. And yes, that would be another good analogy...God as the abusive parent. In fact, Christians are the frightened children, afraid to disobey for fear of their abuser's wrath. Or perhaps they are the abused wife, and their god is the abusive husband. They are afraid to leave him because he'll just find them, and THEN he'll do a number on them! There's a really good TTA video that I must post in regards to that.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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