Contemporary American Society

[Legion]

I've more or less come to the conclusion that our current American culture and society suck severe ass. Don't get me wrong. I still engage individuals and think well of most. I actively search for the positive qualities of other people, and it's easy to find. But the society sucks.

 

Perhaps it's just the ugliness which often accompanies transitional phases.

 

Don't feel compelled to respond. This place is fully immersed in the suckage.

[florduh]

 

This place is fully immersed in the suckage.

It is now.

 

Is there a point for discussion or did you just come back to tell us we suck?

[Legion]

 

This place is fully immersed in the suckage.

It is now.

 

Is there a point for discussion or did you just come back to tell us we suck?

It seems you've misinterpreted me. I am confident that if I had the opportunity to speak with each of you individually we'd probably have a swell time. It's not the individuals. It's the public atmosphere itself.

[RankStranger]

[Legion]

That's funny Rank. I don't feel like that at all. lol I don't feel like a martyr one bit. I feel something closer to contemptuous, not victimized. But it's not even contempt, if contempt is a mixture of anger and disgust. It's more like fading amusement and weariness.

 

Actually, I may be on a roll here. Rants and replies, yes?

 

What is this business with control? Now I readily confess my lust for it. I wish to have complete, unwavering control... over myself. Of course, this is impossible. I may only hold by breath for so long. At some point I'll either pass out involuntarily or take a breath involutarily.

 

But then let's examine control of various real, phenomenally constituted, common, everyday natural systems we find in the world. This is more or less the domain of technology. It seems to me that our control is severely limited in a variety of ways. Do we have some understandings of it? If so, in which ways and to what extent do we understand it? Can we affect or influence it? If so how?

 

Suppose we have little or no understanding of it. It seems to me then that even if we may affect it in some way, we'd be unable to direct it's behavior in any intentional manner because we'd have no comprehension of the results of our influences. But suppose we do have some understandings of it and may even affect it, can we ever possibly avoid unintended consequences because our comprehension is sparse?

[Lilith666]

What is there about society that you think sucks?

[RankStranger]

I've more or less come to the conclusion that our current American culture and society suck severe ass. Don't get me wrong. I still engage individuals and think well of most. I actively search for the positive qualities of other people, and it's easy to find. But the society sucks.

 

Perhaps it's just the ugliness which often accompanies transitional phases.

 

Don't feel compelled to respond. This place is fully immersed in the suckage.

 

 

I don't disagree with the bolded part.  I guess I'm wondering why it matters though- rage against society all you want... you ain't gonna change it.

 

One of the more insightful things that I recall from you was when you were thinking on the notion that "should" is often an irrelevant concept.  Can you apply that notion to society?  Maybe there is no particular way that society *should* be.  Maybe society has always sucked and always will (particularly for weirdos like us)- and it's on you to either adapt or be marginalized.

 

That's the way I see it these days anyhow.

[Legion]

What is there about society that you think sucks?

  

 

 

I've more or less come to the conclusion that our current American culture and society suck severe ass. Don't get me wrong. I still engage individuals and think well of most. I actively search for the positive qualities of other people, and it's easy to find. But the society sucks..

 

 I don't disagree with the bolded part.  I guess I'm wondering why it matters though- rage against society all you want... you ain't gonna change it.

Well, honestly I'm not even really angry. I'm returning to sobriety, if you wish. I interact with people on a daily basis who seem to believe that I will always follow the script which has been silently expected of me. For instance, I interacted with a woman the day before yesterday. Upon approaching her she slighted me in a very minor way. Barely detectable, it would never hold up in court. But I'm convinced that all four of us there knew what she had done. I let her have it. Not anger. No cussing. No threats. No raised voice. No shoulds and no oughts. I was softly spoken when she learned that she will give me due attention for her own sake.

 

One of the more insightful things that I recall from you was when you were thinking on the notion that "should" is often an irrelevant concept.

oh... yeah I still think the is-ought divide is very interesting. Though it seems to me that 'ought to's" are irrevocably bound up with being alive. I mean, we each have some sense of who we are and our environments and what is more or less good for us.

 

But the question posed by Lilith had me thinking along these lines too. It's connected with the expectations of the people of our society. Spoken and unspoken. Shared and private.

[RankStranger]

 

What is there about society that you think sucks?

  

> 

I've more or less come to the conclusion that our current American culture and society suck severe ass. Don't get me wrong. I still engage individuals and think well of most. I actively search for the positive qualities of other people, and it's easy to find. But the society sucks..

 

 I don't disagree with the bolded part.  I guess I'm wondering why it matters though- rage against society all you want... you ain't gonna change it.

Well, honestly I'm not even really angry. I'm returning to sobriety, if you wish. I interact with people on a daily basis who seem to believe that I will always follow the script which has been silently expected of me. For instance, I interacted with a woman the day before yesterday. Upon approaching her she slighted me in a very minor way. Barely detectable, it would never hold up in court. But I'm convinced that all four of us there knew what she had done. I let her have it. Not anger. No cussing. No threats. No raised voice. No shoulds and no oughts. I was softly spoken when she learned that she will give me due attention for her own sake.

 

You seem to perceive insults, slights, etc. with alarming frequency.

 

Why do you think that is? Do you think that you're slighted more often than other people? Or are you just more perceptive regarding these slights? Or more willing to respond?

 

I can't help but wonder if these are delusions of persecution. 

 

[Legion]

You're boring me Rank. Come on man.

 

Perhaps a story.

 

A young man, a minor, was charged with murder some years ago. He was guilty and he also confessed. Among his extraordinary testimony on the witness stand, he claimed that shortly after the killing when he was among other people he could "see" the energies which people exchange with each other.

 

I can sometimes see that too.

[RankStranger]

You're boring me Rank. Come on man.

 

Perhaps a story.

 

A young man, a minor, was charged with murder some years ago. He was guilty and he also confessed. Among his extraordinary testimony on the witness stand, he claimed that shortly after the killing when he was among other people he could "see" the energies which people exchange with each other.

 

I can sometimes see that too.

 

I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

But there is a psychological term for seeing shit that ain't there.  I have several relatives who do just that.

[Legion]

Seriously Rank, I hope you change gears soon because I'm kind of embarrassed for you.

 

The fact is, the apprehension of the causal relations within nature are not directly perceived. We must infer them. All that we directly perceive are ourselves along with phenomena which we impute as originating from outside of ourselves. This is skepticism true.

[wndwalkr99]

 

Well, honestly I'm not even really angry. I'm returning to sobriety, if you wish. I interact with people on a daily basis who seem to believe that I will always follow the script which has been silently expected of me. For instance, I interacted with a woman the day before yesterday. Upon approaching her she slighted me in a very minor way. Barely detectable, it would never hold up in court. But I'm convinced that all four of us there knew what she had done. I let her have it. Not anger. No cussing. No threats. No raised voice. No shoulds and no oughts. I was softly spoken when she learned that she will give me due attention for her own sake.

 

Sounds bat-shit crazy to me, Legion. And I mean that in the gentlest, most respectful way possible. I think you have a problem with paranoia, among other things. I do hope you're seeing a psychiatrist. If not, please consider doing so.

[OpheliaGinger]

 

You're boring me Rank. Come on man.

 

Perhaps a story.

 

A young man, a minor, was charged with murder some years ago. He was guilty and he also confessed. Among his extraordinary testimony on the witness stand, he claimed that shortly after the killing when he was among other people he could "see" the energies which people exchange with each other.

 

I can sometimes see that too.

 

I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

But there is a psychological term for seeing shit that ain't there.  I have several relatives who do just that.

 

Seeing auras is also a symptom of epilepsy.

[RankStranger]

 

 

 

 

You're boring me Rank. Come on man.

Perhaps a story.

A young man, a minor, was charged with murder some years ago. He was guilty and he also confessed. Among his extraordinary testimony on the witness stand, he claimed that shortly after the killing when he was among other people he could "see" the energies which people exchange with each other.

I can sometimes see that too.

 

I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

But there is a psychological term for seeing shit that ain't there. I have several relatives who do just that.

Seeing auras is also a symptom of epilepsy.

I was thinking psychosis (of whatever sort). But I reckon your guess is just as good. Only Legion truly knows... and he ain't tellin.

[Vigile]

I was thinking psychosis (of whatever sort). But I reckon your guess is just as good. Only Legion truly knows... and he ain't tellin.

 

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx37.htm

 

Symptoms of Paranoid Personality Disorder

 

 

A pervasive distrust and suspiciousness of others such that their

motives are interpreted as malevolent, beginning by early adulthood and

present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by four (or more) of the

following:

 

• Suspects, without sufficient basis, that others are exploiting,

  harming, or deceiving him or her

• Is preoccupied with unjustified doubts about the loyalty or

  trustworthiness of friends or associates

• Is reluctant to confide in others because of unwarranted fear that

  the information will be used maliciously against him or her

• Reads hidden demeaning or threatening meanings into benign remarks

  or events

• Persistently bears grudges, i.e., is unforgiving of insults,

  injuries, or slights

• Perceives attacks on his or her character or reputation

  that are not apparent to others and is quick to react angrily or to

  counterattack

• Has recurrent suspicions, without justification, regarding

  fidelity of spouse or sexual partner

[RankStranger]

Paranoia, psychosis, delusions of persecution (or grandeur for that matter) can be symptoms of quite a few different mental problems. So I'm not venturing a guess as to any specific diagnosis. Just pointing out what look to ME like some obvious symptoms.

 

Legion - I know you think I'm just being a dick here. And I'll readily admit that I've become pretty frustrated with you and have given up on interacting with you in a normal manner. But I really wish you could get some help. I see in you MANY of the same symptoms I see in my dad - who happens to be batshit-crazy bipolar when not on Lithium. Lithium may suck in a variety of ways - as do many treatment options. But IMO they beat the hell outta not being able to function within society.

[Ravenstar]

I'm paranoid... a little. No delusions that I know of though.

 

I find the OP rather vague though. What exactly about contemporary society sucks? That's a pretty immense and varied subject. Is it systems? Psychology/sociology? random people and the lack of common courtesy? Current tv/media trends? The price of food? (a particular bugbear of mine) political dishonesty? I'm just throwing stuff out there and could be completely off track.

 

Can you define this suckage?

[midniterider]

Someone nearly imperceptibly slighted you? Not bad really. I've dealt with people calling me every name in the book and being aggressively mean. Still they are in the minority.

[Lilith666]

What is there about society that you think sucks?

 

 

I've more or less come to the conclusion that our current American culture and society suck severe ass. Don't get me wrong. I still engage

individuals and think well of most. I actively

search for the positive qualities of other people,

and it's easy to find. But the society sucks..

 

I don't disagree with the bolded part. I guess I'm wondering why it matters though- rage against society all you want... you ain't gonna change it.

Well, honestly I'm not even really angry. I'm

returning to sobriety, if you wish. I interact with

people on a daily basis who seem to believe that

 

I will always follow the script which has been silently expected of me. For instance, I interacted with a woman the day before yesterday. Upon approaching her she slighted me in a very minor way. Barely detectable, it would never hold up in court. But I'm convinced

that all four of us there knew what she had done. I let her have it. Not anger. No cussing. No threats. No raised voice. No shoulds and no oughts. I was softly spoken when she learned that she will give me due attention for her own sake.

 

Sounds like you might have imagined the insult, and if you didn't, it should not have been enough of an issue to come back at her about it.

 

But the question posed by Lilith had me thinking

along these lines too. It's connected with the expectations of the people of our society.

Spoken and unspoken. Shared and private.

 

What sort of expectations?

[ContraBardus]

Most of the deluded ignorant masses in America don't realize the truth.

 

We're pretty much the most backward, least free, and most regulated 'modern' democratic government.

 

A lot of other places aren't any great shakes either, but most of Europe enjoys more personal freedom and they are generally more progressive politically.

 

America is founded upon a great lie of 'freedom'. The ideals and freedoms of the past have become mere myth.

 

Countries in the Middle East and other places abroad don't 'hate us for our freedom' but because in our foreign policy we've been Imperialist douchebags ever since the end of WWII.

 

Our 'freedom' such as it is has been slowly whittled away since the 1950s. Some would say sooner than that because of prohibition, but the paranoia of the Cold War and the rise of the Conservative Religious South was what really got things going, and we've done little to regain our sanity since.

 

The truth is, America pretends to be secularist for all intents and purposes, but we're really a religious state that's in denial about it. We're just a bit more tolerant about faith that doesn't involve Jesus at this point than most other religious states, but that is also fading away.

 

America is not the country the majority of citizens living in it pretend and/or are fooled that it is.

 

The political figures of the past are revered as symbols for a political system that would have nothing to do with them if they were in office today. Regan and Lincoln are two prime examples, the image portrayed of these two men is largely a bastardized fantasy manipulated for pushing an agenda, as is the image of most of the 'Founding Fathers'.

 

There is some hope, but progressives are pretty weak kneed for the most part. Conservatives are taking things too far and losing credibility, but the Liberals aren't taking advantage of it. We ended up in a stalemate quagmire where nothing gets done, and I see no reason to think it will end anytime soon.

 

Even though there has been some progress, things are still largely controlled by Conservative religious nutjobs, and the rank and file majority citizens are reluctant to argue with them because they're wearing Jesus on their shoulder. It's a slim majority, but its still enough to retard any real progress.

 

We're not the country the nationalistic idiocracy that makes up most of our citizens believes. The film Team America: World Police is more truth than satire.

 

I honestly don't things are going to get better. It may be cynical, but it's true anyway. The America of 'real freedom' never existed, and it's an ideal that is slipping further and further away.

 

As I said, there is some hope, a few sorted good things do happen on occasion, but I think it will end up a case of too little, too late. Things are just going to get worse until riot and revolution springs up, and I'm not confident the 'American People' have what it takes to win that sort of fight anymore.

[Denyoz]

Most of the deluded ignorant masses in America don't realize the truth.

 

We're pretty much the most backward, least free, and most regulated 'modern' democratic government.

 

A lot of other places aren't any great shakes either, but most of Europe enjoys more personal freedom and they are generally more progressive politically.

 

America is founded upon a great lie of 'freedom'. The ideals and freedoms of the past have become mere myth.

 

Countries in the Middle East and other places abroad don't 'hate us for our freedom' but because in our foreign policy we've been Imperialist douchebags ever since the end of WWII.

 

Our 'freedom' such as it is has been slowly whittled away since the 1950s. Some would say sooner than that because of prohibition, but the paranoia of the Cold War and the rise of the Conservative Religious South was what really got things going, and we've done little to regain our sanity since.

 

The truth is, America pretends to be secularist for all intents and purposes, but we're really a religious state that's in denial about it. We're just a bit more tolerant about faith that doesn't involve Jesus at this point than most other religious states, but that is also fading away.

 

America is not the country the majority of citizens living in it pretend and/or are fooled that it is.

 

I wish I could give you more than one point for this post.

[Margee]

 

Most of the deluded ignorant masses in America don't realize the truth.

 

We're pretty much the most backward, least free, and most regulated 'modern' democratic government.

 

A lot of other places aren't any great shakes either, but most of Europe enjoys more personal freedom and they are generally more progressive politically.

 

America is founded upon a great lie of 'freedom'. The ideals and freedoms of the past have become mere myth.

 

Countries in the Middle East and other places abroad don't 'hate us for our freedom' but because in our foreign policy we've been Imperialist douchebags ever since the end of WWII.

 

Our 'freedom' such as it is has been slowly whittled away since the 1950s. Some would say sooner than that because of prohibition, but the paranoia of the Cold War and the rise of the Conservative Religious South was what really got things going, and we've done little to regain our sanity since.

 

The truth is, America pretends to be secularist for all intents and purposes, but we're really a religious state that's in denial about it. We're just a bit more tolerant about faith that doesn't involve Jesus at this point than most other religious states, but that is also fading away.

 

America is not the country the majority of citizens living in it pretend and/or are fooled that it is.

 

I wish I could give you more than one point for this post.

Here, here!!   I guess I must be a pessimist.......5 star post!! ***** CB

 

I'm with Deny on this one for sure!! Excellent post! The truth... (as far as I am concerned!!)

 

I started a topic  very similar to this today....

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/55549-peeved-off/

[Legion]

Most of the deluded ignorant masses in America don't realize the truth.

 

America is founded upon a great lie of 'freedom'. The ideals and freedoms of the past have become mere myth.

In a sense I agree and in a sense I disagree. I believe all living beings are essentially free and autonomous. It's what some might once have called an inalienable right. However I also believe that continued freedom (and life) entail responsibility.

 

Countries in the Middle East and other places abroad don't 'hate us for our freedom' but because in our foreign policy we've been Imperialist douchebags ever since the end of WWII.

I basically agree, except I suspect it began before that. The establishment of the federal reserve in the mid teens of last century didn't help. And several other things since.

 

 

The truth is, America pretends to be secularist for all intents and purposes, but we're really a religious state that's in denial about it. We're just a bit more tolerant about faith that doesn't involve Jesus at this point than most other religious states, but that is also fading away.

 

America is not the country the majority of citizens living in it pretend and/or are fooled that it is.

I hope to say more on this later...

[RipVanWinkle]

I too am very concerned about a number of changes that have occurred in America in my lifetime. The religious right and the far right, generally, concern me the most. The attitude of so many politicians (mostly Republicans) is downright frightening. The statement about 47% of Americans being takers belies an elitist attitude that is practically unpatriotic. That may be a slight hyperbole, but not by much. Politicians that use their positions in state government (including governors, for gawd's sake) to prevent large segments of eligible voters from exercising that right should be stopped by the use of injunctive power of the federal court system.Voting is a Constitutional Right. But court action  would be useless with a Supreme Court that acts like it is made up of  members of the old John Birch Society.

 

The general opposition to federal help for the needy is ironic in this "christian" nation. It is amazing how the lower middle class has been, for the most part, sold on the idea that receiving federal help is UN-AMERICAN, even though the economic cards are stacked against it. It opposes federal aid and at the same time many of them receive food stamps and vote republican!

 

However, I shouldn't be so surprised when I consider the fact that the lower middle class is predominately christian. And conservative christian at that. Thus they have already shown themselves to be easily manipulated.

 

Having said all that, I really think we need to be careful not to overreact to our concerns. If a average American had traveled all over the world I would question whether there are many nations, if any, that he/she would prefer to live in. We have a system that has mechanisms within it to change things for the better without revolting and thereby causing the killing or maiming of thousands and thousands of people. I'm not saying anybody here has suggested doing that. But the way in which we perceive ourselves as a nation counts a lot for what means will be used to remedy our problems. 

 

It's not that I think any of the above posts are false or out of line. I don't. But I hope we don't forget how important is our attitude towards our country. If you think I'm old fashion, that's fine: I am. Why not? I'm old enough to qualify.   bill

 

 

s