This a Hell Thread from Theology Web.

[Onyx]

This is a thread from theology Web.

 

As with everything else - Atheists have Hell wrong.

 

FirstSunday33ad May 1st 2005 08:22 AM

 

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As with everything else - Atheists have Hell wrong.

 

Here is part of a very long open letter about Hell from a very interesting site. To read the entire contents go here:

 

http://bible-truths.com/

 

Here is a portion of this site:

 

HELL

 

You said something to the effect that "sin is what sends people to hell."

 

"Hell" is an unfortunate translation of numerous Greek and Hebrew words.

 

In Hebrew "Hell" is translated from the word sheol

 

This same word sheol is translated into the English word "grave" thirty times in the Authorized Version

 

In Greek "Hell" is translated from the word gehennah [the valley of Hinnom], Tartaros [abyss?], and hades [the unseen].

 

In I Cor. 15:55 "Hell" is translated "grave"

 

The Hebrew word sheol and the Greek word hades are synonymous (Acts 2:27).

 

Why would an intelligent translator translate three totally different Greek words into the same English word? Are the Valley of Hinnom in Jerusalem, where our thoughts perish, and Tartarus, a place of restraint for Angels, all synonymous? I don't think so.

 

"Hell" never was and never will be a proper translation of the Greek word hades. However, back in the Middle Ages it did have a totally different connotation than today. There is old English literature that refers to people "putting their potatoes in hell" for the winter. And I guarantee you that when they retrieved their potatoes they were still raw and not baked or burned by some fabled fires of hell. Although not a proper translation of hades, this old English word did (I said "did"-not anymore) have similarities to the word hades. My old Webster's Twentieth Century Dictionary has this definition: "hell, n. [ME, helle; AS, hell, hell, from helan, to cover, conceal.]" To "cover" or "conceal." That definition has at least some similarity to the Greek elements of hades: UN-PERCEIVED [the UNSEEN or IMPERCEPTIBLE].

 

Before the King James Bible, the old Anglo-Saxon word simply meant a dark, hidden, concealed, or covered hole in the ground. Actually, hell would be a better translation for grave than hades. But now check a modern dictionary and look what we get: Webster's New World Dictionary: "hell (hel), n 1. the place where Christians believe that devils live and wicked people go to be punished after they die." What happened to the definition ... of the word ... "hell?"

 

It doesn't even purport to define the word. It just tells us what Christians believe it is. I, frankly, don't care what Christians think it means. What a travesty of modern scholarship.

 

So when unsaved people die, are they really punished eternally in this "Christian" hell?

 

You know, it's the theologians who should be protecting the people against such modern heresy, but instead it is they who are causing and promoting the heresy.

 

Let's see if God's Word really teaches eternal torture in a "Christian hell where devils live," immediately after death for unsaved sinners. Thank God one doesn't have to be a theologian to understand His Word. "Thou hidest these things from the wise and intelligent and Thou dost reveal them unto babes [Gk: minors]" (Matt. 11:25).

 

The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior by John Broadus more properly translates Phil. 1:10 thus: " ... may distinguish the things that differ." Whenever and wherever God inspires different words in the Hebrew or Greek, translations should show those differences. We must be able to distinguish the differences in words as they are used Scripturally. In most cases this is not difficult if we consult all the ways the same words are used in Scripture. Let's look at body, spirit, and soul, and see if any dwell "with devils" at death.

 

 

 

BODY

 

When a man dies his body (if not disintegrated) goes into a grave or tomb (Jn. 11:38) where within a few days it begins to smell and decompose (Jn. 11:39), and it returns [Heb. shub] to the dust of the ground from which it was taken (Gen. 3:17-19, Job 10:9, Psa. 9:17, etc., etc). The "person" is said to be where the "body" is and the "person" is resurrected from the place where the body is (Mat. 28:6). Only in a figurative or symbolic sense does a "body" ever go to sheol (Jonah 2:2). Jonah was not "literally" in hell [sheol], but in the fish, and besides he didn't even die. I'm sure Jonah's loss of perception inside the fish resembled his knowledge of the word "sheol."

 

 

 

SPIRIT

 

When a man dies his spirit returns to God Who gave it (Lk. 23:46, Psa. 104:24-30). The "spirit" is never said to go to hades or sheol, and the "soul" is never said to go to Heaven at death. Men and beasts have the same spirit [ruach] and they go to the same place (Ecc. 3:18-21). There is no getting around this: when God takes away a living soul's spirit, it always dies. The spirit "gives life." No one can live without "spirit," no matter how young and healthy he may be. There are no exceptions. If there are, where is the Scripture? A dead person cannot experience anything-not pleasure in Heaven or pain in a fabled hell. This is a serious thing. Rom. 14:23 says: "Now everything which is not out of faith is sin." If one doesn't have Scriptures that show people go to eternal hell fire after death, then it is a sin to teach it.

 

 

 

SOUL

 

When a man dies his soul goes to the unseen or imperceptible [Gk: hades, Heb: sheol]. We also know that when man is in this condition (dead) it is likened to "sleep" (Psa. 13:3, Dan. 12:1-2, Jn. 11:11-14). God Himself likens death to sleep,

 

"The Lord said unto Moses [concerning his imminent death], Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers ... " (Deut. 31:16)

 

This is substantiated by the fact that:

 

"The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything" (Ecc. 9:5,6).

 

Again:

 

" ... for there is no work, nor device [contrivance, intelligence, reason], nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in sheol." (Ecc. 9:10).

 

Do we think all of these Scriptures lie? According to what we just read in Ecc. 9:5,6,10, do dead people know anything? And these verses are correctly translated.

 

The words "soul" and "spirit" have become corrupted through theology so that they are now used interchangeably, as if they were synonymous. They are not synonymous. There may be certain similarities between soul and spirit, but similarities do not make them one and the same.

 

The "soul" is the seat of sensation, consciousness, and feelings, not the body or the spirit. It is the spirit that imparts life to the body and the body then becomes a living soul (Gen. 2:7).

 

A thorough study of the word "soul" in the Scriptures proves that it is used of consciousness, feelings, and emotions. Hence, "sensation" is a good word to define its usage.

 

souls can touch (Lev. 5:2)

 

souls have knowledge (Pr. 2:10)

 

souls have memory (Lam. 3:20)

 

souls can love, and be joyful (Psa. 35:9; 86:4)

 

souls can hunger and thirst (Deut. 14:26)

 

souls can sin (Lev. 4:2)

 

life can be given to a soul (Job 3:20)

 

souls can die (Ezek. 18:20)

 

souls can be converted (Psa. 19:7)

 

none can keep alive his (own) soul (Psa. 22:29)

 

honey is sweet to the soul (Pr. 16:24)

 

even God has a soul (Lev. 26:11, I Sam. 2:35, Jer. 32:41)

 

souls can hear (Acts 3:22-23)

 

souls can experience pleasure (Heb. 10:3)

 

souls die (Rev. 16:3)

 

souls can be purified (I Pet. 1:22)

 

and souls can receive salvation (I Pet. 1:9).

 

These verses show the wide range of emotions and sensations that "souls" experience, but dead souls experience nothing in the unseen or imperceptible (hades). We need to pay close attention to the meaning of words. Hades comes from the Greek a(i)des. The a is a prefix which is equivalent to our un- and the stem -id means perceive. Thus we have UN-PERCEIVE, or imperceptible: the unseen. Etymologically, your doctrine of torment in hell falls flat on its face. From the words that God chose to call this condition of the soul after death, one thing is crystal clear: There is absolutely no perception there. And the soul has everything to do with perception and sensation as clearly seen from the verses above.

 

So why do you teach that there is perception in death? The very meaning of the word itself (hades) is unseen or imperceptible, so how can a dead soul have perception in a condition of imperception? God Himself chose this word which teaches us that hades is UN-perceptible or IM-perceptible (NO perception). Your teaching is blatantly false and deceptive!

 

Because of the shameful way these words are translated and interchanged in the Authorized Version, it is nearly impossible to understand their true meanings without an exhaustive concordance.

 

FROM KING JAMES TRANSLATION:

 

SPIRIT [pneuma] is translated LIFE in Rev. 13:5

SOUL [nephesh] is translated HEART in Prov. 23:7, etc

HEART [leb] is translated MIND in Prov. 21:27, I Sam. 9:20, etc.

SOUL [nephesh] is translated LIFE in Gen. 9:4, Lev. 17:11, etc

SOUL [nephesh] is translated GHOST in Job 11:2

SPIRIT [pneuma] is translated GHOST in Mark 1:8

SOUL [nephesh] is translated BEAST in Lev. 24:18.

BEAST [chay] is translated LIFE in Lev. 18:18.

SOUL [nephesh] is translated BODY in Lev. 21:11, Hag. 2:35, etc.

 

This kind of translating is not responsible scholarship-it's confusing and contradictory.

 

The Apostle Paul admonished Timothy to "have a pattern of sound words" (II Tim. 1:13) The Scriptures quoted above clearly show the translator's disregard for this instruction.

 

I am amazed that people put up with such irresponsible teaching. You teach that man has immortality in his soul. The Scripture says man is "mortal," and "Our Lord, Jesus Christ ... Who ONLY has immortality." Which do you think is true - your teaching or the Scriptures? What part of the word "ONLY" don't you understand, Dr. Kennedy?

 

Man is mortal (Job 4:17). Not one Scripture says that man is "immortal" or has an "immortal" soul. Not one. "Our Lord, Jesus Christ: the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only has immortality" (I Tim. 6:14-16).

 

It is by means of the "resurrection" that God causes dead people to live again. The Apostle Paul said: "Concerning the expectation and resurrection of the dead am I being judged" (Acts 23:6). The truth regarding the "resurrection of the dead" is not even taught in Christendom today. They teach that there are no dead people (only dead bodies). They teach that people are either alive on earth, alive in Heaven, or alive in Hell. What need have we for a "resurrection of the dead" if there are no dead people to resurrect? This, my friend, is heresy!

 

Paul also stated: "Now if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused. Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith" (I Cor. 15:14-15). The very salvation of mankind rests on the resurrection. This is most important to understand: "For, if the dead are not being roused [resurrected], neither has Christ been roused. Now, if Christ has not been roused, vain is your faith-you are STILL IN YOUR SINS." (Acts 15:16-18). That is just how important the resurrection is, and according to you and most Christian theologians, it isn't necessary at all, because you teach that man has an immortal soul that goes directly to Heaven or Hell without resurrection and thus make a mockery of the very Word of God.

 

And where, Dr. Kennedy, is all the "hell fire and brimstone" in all these verses on body, spirit, and soul? Where? If you don't understand the Scriptures concerning God's punishment and chastisement on mankind, fine, but don't force them into these versus regarding "the dead." And don't turn "ages" into "eternities" either. I'll comment on punishment, gehennah, the lake of fire, etc. later.

 

"EXPOSING THOSE WHO CONTRADICT"

[Titus 1:9 Concordant Literal New Testament]

 

An open letter to T.B.N. critiquing

two sermons by:

 

James Kennedy, A.B., M.Div., M.Th., D.D.,

D.Sac.Lit., PhD., Litt.D., D.Sac.Theol., D. Humane Let.

 

and

 

Dr. John Hagee

 

Also presented to:

 

Dr. Paul Crouch, Benny Hinn, Dr. Charles Stanley, Casey Treats, Dr. Fred Price, Marilyn Hickie, Dr. Mark Chironna, Pat Robertson, Dr. Robert Schuller, Kenneth Copeland, Dr. Jack Van Impee, Hal Lindsey, Dr. Jack Hayford, Dr. Billy Graham

(And others)

 

By: L. Ray Smith

 

TheOneAndOnly May 1st 2005 08:29 AM

 

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Re: As with everything else - Atheists have Hell wrong.

 

I read it. But unfortunately it all sounded like gobbledegook to me. All I want to know is:

 

1) what happens to Christians/non-christians when they die? The thinking, conscious part of christians whether that's mind, soul, spirit or whatever.

2) what happens at the end of the earth to christians and non-christians? Are non-Christians destroyed, sent to everlasting torment?

3) Where did Jesus go to preach while he was unconscious in the tomb? Didn't he go down to hell or purgatory or something?

 

bandecoot May 1st 2005 10:53 AM

 

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Re: As with everything else - Atheists have Hell wrong.

 

Quote: Originally posted by FirstSunday33ad

 

Here is part of a very long open letter about Hell from a very interesting site. To read the entire contents go here:

 

http://bible-truths.com/

 

Here is a portion of this site:

 

HELL

 

You said something to the effect that "sin is what sends people to hell."

 

"Hell" is an unfortunate translation of numerous Greek and Hebrew words.

 

In Hebrew "Hell" is translated from the word sheol

 

This same word sheol is translated into the English word "grave" thirty times in the Authorized Version

 

In Greek "Hell" is translated from the word gehennah [the valley of Hinnom], Tartaros [abyss?], and hades [the unseen].

 

In I Cor. 15:55 "Hell" is translated "grave"

 

The Hebrew word sheol and the Greek word hades are synonymous (Acts 2:27).

 

Why would an intelligent translator translate three totally different Greek words into the same English word? Are the Valley of Hinnom in Jerusalem, where our thoughts perish, and Tartarus, a place of restraint for Angels, all synonymous? I don't think so.

 

"Hell" never was and never will be a proper translation of the Greek word hades. However, back in the Middle Ages it did have a totally different connotation than today. There is old English literature that refers to people "putting their potatoes in hell" for the winter. And I guarantee you that when they retrieved their potatoes they were still raw and not baked or burned by some fabled fires of hell. Although not a proper translation of hades, this old English word did (I said "did"-not anymore) have similarities to the word hades. My old Webster's Twentieth Century Dictionary has this definition: "hell, n. [ME, helle; AS, hell, hell, from helan, to cover, conceal.]" To "cover" or "conceal." That definition has at least some similarity to the Greek elements of hades: UN-PERCEIVED [the UNSEEN or IMPERCEPTIBLE].

 

Before the King James Bible, the old Anglo-Saxon word simply meant a dark, hidden, concealed, or covered hole in the ground. Actually, hell would be a better translation for grave than hades. But now check a modern dictionary and look what we get: Webster's New World Dictionary: "hell (hel), n 1. the place where Christians believe that devils live and wicked people go to be punished after they die." What happened to the definition ... of the word ... "hell?"

 

It doesn't even purport to define the word. It just tells us what Christians believe it is. I, frankly, don't care what Christians think it means. What a travesty of modern scholarship.

 

So when unsaved people die, are they really punished eternally in this "Christian" hell?

 

You know, it's the theologians who should be protecting the people against such modern heresy, but instead it is they who are causing and promoting the heresy.

 

Let's see if God's Word really teaches eternal torture in a "Christian hell where devils live," immediately after death for unsaved sinners. Thank God one doesn't have to be a theologian to understand His Word. "Thou hidest these things from the wise and intelligent and Thou dost reveal them unto babes [Gk: minors]" (Matt. 11:25).

 

The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior by John Broadus more properly translates Phil. 1:10 thus: " ... may distinguish the things that differ." Whenever and wherever God inspires different words in the Hebrew or Greek, translations should show those differences. We must be able to distinguish the differences in words as they are used Scripturally. In most cases this is not difficult if we consult all the ways the same words are used in Scripture. Let's look at body, spirit, and soul, and see if any dwell "with devils" at death.

 

 

 

BODY

 

When a man dies his body (if not disintegrated) goes into a grave or tomb (Jn. 11:38) where within a few days it begins to smell and decompose (Jn. 11:39), and it returns [Heb. shub] to the dust of the ground from which it was taken (Gen. 3:17-19, Job 10:9, Psa. 9:17, etc., etc). The "person" is said to be where the "body" is and the "person" is resurrected from the place where the body is (Mat. 28:6). Only in a figurative or symbolic sense does a "body" ever go to sheol (Jonah 2:2). Jonah was not "literally" in hell [sheol], but in the fish, and besides he didn't even die. I'm sure Jonah's loss of perception inside the fish resembled his knowledge of the word "sheol."

 

 

 

SPIRIT

 

When a man dies his spirit returns to God Who gave it (Lk. 23:46, Psa. 104:24-30). The "spirit" is never said to go to hades or sheol, and the "soul" is never said to go to Heaven at death. Men and beasts have the same spirit [ruach] and they go to the same place (Ecc. 3:18-21). There is no getting around this: when God takes away a living soul's spirit, it always dies. The spirit "gives life." No one can live without "spirit," no matter how young and healthy he may be. There are no exceptions. If there are, where is the Scripture? A dead person cannot experience anything-not pleasure in Heaven or pain in a fabled hell. This is a serious thing. Rom. 14:23 says: "Now everything which is not out of faith is sin." If one doesn't have Scriptures that show people go to eternal hell fire after death, then it is a sin to teach it.

 

 

 

SOUL

 

When a man dies his soul goes to the unseen or imperceptible [Gk: hades, Heb: sheol]. We also know that when man is in this condition (dead) it is likened to "sleep" (Psa. 13:3, Dan. 12:1-2, Jn. 11:11-14). God Himself likens death to sleep,

 

"The Lord said unto Moses [concerning his imminent death], Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers ... " (Deut. 31:16)

 

This is substantiated by the fact that:

 

"The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything" (Ecc. 9:5,6).

 

Again:

 

" ... for there is no work, nor device [contrivance, intelligence, reason], nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in sheol." (Ecc. 9:10).

 

Do we think all of these Scriptures lie? According to what we just read in Ecc. 9:5,6,10, do dead people know anything? And these verses are correctly translated.

 

The words "soul" and "spirit" have become corrupted through theology so that they are now used interchangeably, as if they were synonymous. They are not synonymous. There may be certain similarities between soul and spirit, but similarities do not make them one and the same.

 

The "soul" is the seat of sensation, consciousness, and feelings, not the body or the spirit. It is the spirit that imparts life to the body and the body then becomes a living soul (Gen. 2:7).

 

A thorough study of the word "soul" in the Scriptures proves that it is used of consciousness, feelings, and emotions. Hence, "sensation" is a good word to define its usage.

 

souls can touch (Lev. 5:2)

 

souls have knowledge (Pr. 2:10)

 

souls have memory (Lam. 3:20)

 

souls can love, and be joyful (Psa. 35:9; 86:4)

 

souls can hunger and thirst (Deut. 14:26)

 

souls can sin (Lev. 4:2)

 

life can be given to a soul (Job 3:20)

 

souls can die (Ezek. 18:20)

 

souls can be converted (Psa. 19:7)

 

none can keep alive his (own) soul (Psa. 22:29)

 

honey is sweet to the soul (Pr. 16:24)

 

even God has a soul (Lev. 26:11, I Sam. 2:35, Jer. 32:41)

 

souls can hear (Acts 3:22-23)

 

souls can experience pleasure (Heb. 10:3)

 

souls die (Rev. 16:3)

 

souls can be purified (I Pet. 1:22)

 

and souls can receive salvation (I Pet. 1:9).

 

These verses show the wide range of emotions and sensations that "souls" experience, but dead souls experience nothing in the unseen or imperceptible (hades). We need to pay close attention to the meaning of words. Hades comes from the Greek a(i)des. The a is a prefix which is equivalent to our un- and the stem -id means perceive. Thus we have UN-PERCEIVE, or imperceptible: the unseen. Etymologically, your doctrine of torment in hell falls flat on its face. From the words that God chose to call this condition of the soul after death, one thing is crystal clear: There is absolutely no perception there. And the soul has everything to do with perception and sensation as clearly seen from the verses above.

 

So why do you teach that there is perception in death? The very meaning of the word itself (hades) is unseen or imperceptible, so how can a dead soul have perception in a condition of imperception? God Himself chose this word which teaches us that hades is UN-perceptible or IM-perceptible (NO perception). Your teaching is blatantly false and deceptive!

 

Because of the shameful way these words are translated and interchanged in the Authorized Version, it is nearly impossible to understand their true meanings without an exhaustive concordance.

 

FROM KING JAMES TRANSLATION:

 

SPIRIT [pneuma] is translated LIFE in Rev. 13:5

SOUL [nephesh] is translated HEART in Prov. 23:7, etc

HEART [leb] is translated MIND in Prov. 21:27, I Sam. 9:20, etc.

SOUL [nephesh] is translated LIFE in Gen. 9:4, Lev. 17:11, etc

SOUL [nephesh] is translated GHOST in Job 11:2

SPIRIT [pneuma] is translated GHOST in Mark 1:8

SOUL [nephesh] is translated BEAST in Lev. 24:18.

BEAST [chay] is translated LIFE in Lev. 18:18.

SOUL [nephesh] is translated BODY in Lev. 21:11, Hag. 2:35, etc.

 

This kind of translating is not responsible scholarship-it's confusing and contradictory.

 

The Apostle Paul admonished Timothy to "have a pattern of sound words" (II Tim. 1:13) The Scriptures quoted above clearly show the translator's disregard for this instruction.

 

I am amazed that people put up with such irresponsible teaching. You teach that man has immortality in his soul. The Scripture says man is "mortal," and "Our Lord, Jesus Christ ... Who ONLY has immortality." Which do you think is true - your teaching or the Scriptures? What part of the word "ONLY" don't you understand, Dr. Kennedy?

 

Man is mortal (Job 4:17). Not one Scripture says that man is "immortal" or has an "immortal" soul. Not one. "Our Lord, Jesus Christ: the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only has immortality" (I Tim. 6:14-16).

 

It is by means of the "resurrection" that God causes dead people to live again. The Apostle Paul said: "Concerning the expectation and resurrection of the dead am I being judged" (Acts 23:6). The truth regarding the "resurrection of the dead" is not even taught in Christendom today. They teach that there are no dead people (only dead bodies). They teach that people are either alive on earth, alive in Heaven, or alive in Hell. What need have we for a "resurrection of the dead" if there are no dead people to resurrect? This, my friend, is heresy!

 

Paul also stated: "Now if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused. Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith" (I Cor. 15:14-15). The very salvation of mankind rests on the resurrection. This is most important to understand: "For, if the dead are not being roused [resurrected], neither has Christ been roused. Now, if Christ has not been roused, vain is your faith-you are STILL IN YOUR SINS." (Acts 15:16-18). That is just how important the resurrection is, and according to you and most Christian theologians, it isn't necessary at all, because you teach that man has an immortal soul that goes directly to Heaven or Hell without resurrection and thus make a mockery of the very Word of God.

 

And where, Dr. Kennedy, is all the "hell fire and brimstone" in all these verses on body, spirit, and soul? Where? If you don't understand the Scriptures concerning God's punishment and chastisement on mankind, fine, but don't force them into these versus regarding "the dead." And don't turn "ages" into "eternities" either. I'll comment on punishment, gehennah, the lake of fire, etc. later.

 

"EXPOSING THOSE WHO CONTRADICT"

[Titus 1:9 Concordant Literal New Testament]

 

An open letter to T.B.N. critiquing

two sermons by:

 

James Kennedy, A.B., M.Div., M.Th., D.D.,

D.Sac.Lit., PhD., Litt.D., D.Sac.Theol., D. Humane Let.

 

and

 

Dr. John Hagee

 

Also presented to:

 

Dr. Paul Crouch, Benny Hinn, Dr. Charles Stanley, Casey Treats, Dr. Fred Price, Marilyn Hickie, Dr. Mark Chironna, Pat Robertson, Dr. Robert Schuller, Kenneth Copeland, Dr. Jack Van Impee, Hal Lindsey, Dr. Jack Hayford, Dr. Billy Graham

(And others)

 

By: L. Ray Smith

 

 

 

 

Well Whose fault is that? We dont believe in a God so by definition we have no concept of hell.

 

 

Any ideas we have of the Christian version of hell comes from Christians, and as Christians cant even agree on conditions of salvation how can they agree on what hell is? No wonder we get it wrong!

 

Barry Desboroug May 1st 2005 12:00 PM

 

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Re: As with everything else - Atheists have Hell wrong.

 

I reckon I have hell sussed.

 

What more powerful component could a memeplex have to latch on to its victim's mind?

 

As the advertisers and money marketeers say, the greatest motivators are greed and fear.

 

What horrible mental tortures have been inflicted on believers down the ages by this vicious notion? I'm glad I lost any illusions about its substantiality along with Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.

 

FirstSunday33ad May 1st 2005 12:46 PM

 

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Re: As with everything else - Atheists have Hell wrong.

 

Quote: Originally posted by Barry Desboroug

 

I reckon I have hell sussed.

 

What more powerful component could a memeplex have to latch on to its victim's mind?

 

As the advertisers and money marketeers say, the greatest motivators are greed and fear.

 

What horrible mental tortures have been inflicted on believers down the ages by this vicious notion? I'm glad I lost any illusions about its substantiality along with Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.

 

 

You believed in the tooth fairy and Santa Clause?? Man you really were (are?) gullible weren't (aren't?) you? No wonder you swallowed the Fire & Brimstone version of Hell so readily.

 

Anyway, the gullibility of atheists aside, I hope at least now you dolts will realize that your favorite objection to Christianity is based on incorrect translation and understanding of scripture and will stop playing it like a moldy-oldy record.

 

ilkhani'tus May 1st 2005 01:07 PM

 

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Re: As with everything else - Atheists have Hell wrong.

 

Quote: Originally posted by FirstSunday33ad

 

You believed in the tooth fairy and Santa Clause?? Man you really were (are?) gullible weren't (aren't?) you? No wonder you swallowed the Fire & Brimstone version of Hell so readily.

Sarcasm is beyond you, eh?

 

 

Quote: Originally posted by FirstSunday33ad

 

Anyway, the gullibility of atheists aside, I hope at least now you dolts will realize that your favorite objection to Christianity is based on incorrect translation and understanding of scripture and will stop playing it like a moldy-oldy record.

Certianly. At the exact same time that all xian fundy-dolts stop teaching it!

 

Look to your friends Hagee, Kennedy, et al. If atheists are "gullible" for listening to people like that, what then, does that make xians who listen to people like that?

 

 

Pathetic, blaming atheists for mistakes that your fellow xians are making and spreading around.

 

rthearle May 1st 2005 01:08 PM

 

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Re: As with everything else - Atheists have Hell wrong.

 

Quote: Originally posted by FirstSunday33ad

 

Anyway, the gullibility of atheists aside, I hope at least now you dolts will realize that your favorite objection to Christianity is based on incorrect translation and understanding of scripture and will stop playing it like a moldy-oldy record.

 

 

Try as I might, I am unable to find any indication that the article you quote is written by, for, to, or about atheists, yet you titled this thread "Atheists have Hell wrong." As the article is addressed to two prominent US ministers, it is actually many Christians that supposedly have Hell wrong; you are simply being dishonest and insulting.

 

I think you owe all the atheists here an apology for your unsupported characterisations of them as 'dolts' and 'gullible'.

 

Roy

 

Barry Desboroug May 1st 2005 01:28 PM

 

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Re: As with everything else - Atheists have Hell wrong.

 

Quote: Originally posted by FirstSunday33ad

 

You believed in the tooth fairy and Santa Clause?? Man you really were (are?) gullible weren't (aren't?) you? No wonder you swallowed the Fire & Brimstone version of Hell so readily.

 

Anyway, the gullibility of atheists aside, I hope at least now you dolts will realize that your favorite objection to Christianity is based on incorrect translation and understanding of scripture and will stop playing it like a moldy-oldy record.

 

 

I don't think calling people dolts is very, er, well - Christian.

 

EvoUK May 1st 2005 01:30 PM

 

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Re: As with everything else - Atheists have Hell wrong.

 

Quite. The fact that you lot can't even sort out your own theology isn't the fault of those of us who think it's full of crap.

 

C. D. Ward May 1st 2005 03:59 PM

 

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Re: As with everything else - Atheists have Hell wrong.

 

Quote: Originally posted by EvoUK

 

Quite. The fact that you lot can't even sort out your own theology isn't the fault of those of us who think it's full of crap.

 

:lmbo: :thumb:

[♦ nivek ♦]

Fuckin' 10,000 words of ancient bullshit covered in a veneer of respectibility and politeness.

 

Typical sectarian BS laid out in a format ment to dazzle and impress those it might with all the razzle-ma-taz and excess verbage..

 

"Yer goin' to Hell for not believing in Jebus" is pretty damn simple, to whtever fuckin' point they want to make...

 

Sheeze.. Lost this mean old man after second paragraph.

 

n

[nirrti]

Hey! I've just created a new Olympic sporting event....Sacred text gymnastics! Whoever can come up with as many doctrines as possible from one selected biblical, Vendic or I Ching passage wins the gold medal.

 

Oh course, this would exclude countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran from competing being that Muslims never consider a Quran authentic unless it's written in Arabic. Cuts down on mistranslations, I heard.

[Amethyst]

It's still fiction, whichever way you slice it, IMHO. Although I wouldn't be surprised if the vast majority of the Bible was mistranslated, whether on purpose or not, it makes no difference. It also still won't make me believe anything other than that the Bible is an ancient work of fiction.

[Guest MalaInSe]

I'm somewhat familiar with this theology...which probably IS really closer to what the biblical text ACTUALLY said.  THe belief is....that there is no such place as "hell" even in the bible...not the firey eternal place.  But that it is simply the grave.  That when unbelievers die, they just die, and that's it.  They believe that those who believe will be resurrected by Jesus, to live forever in heaven.  But the unbelievers just stay dead, no torture.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's consistent within an ancient Greek and Roman religious context and with other mystery religions from the same time period. I think that this is more likely to be what was meant than the modern Christian take on hell. People are portrayed in literature as having some kind of an afterlife in Hades', but it wasn't a particularly fun place. No torment, just a lot of dead people walking around, without a whole lot to do.

 

Personally, I believe that Christianity is just a mystery religion that slipped into the vacancy left from government prosecution of the cult of Bacchus. It had the added bonus of a claim of a living cult center (usually mere mortals were deified after death-- but deification of normal folks was pretty popular at the time). There is an awful lot that is borrowed from Roman culture in the cult. One thing I noticed while studying women's roles in Roman culture is that many of the more misogynist elements appear to be lifted directly from Roman law, at a time when the Roman government was sort of in a period of reining in us uppity women. I have a paper (admittedly undergrad) somewhere that traces some of those elements to the NT that I will see about finding one of these days.

 

I know Rameus disagrees with the mystery religion theory, but its the one that seemed the most likely to me when I studied Greek and Roman civilization in college (I'm not any kind of global biblical scholar-- just studied the cult in the context of the culture).

[Vixentrox]

Hear that Xtians that belive in hell? Your wrong! Your a false Xtian beliving/preaching incorrect doctorine. You ought to be ashamed of yourself and submit to the one TRUE doctorine.

[TruthWarrior]

I think it's important to know the truth about what the first christians thought about hell. Then know how everything went sour. All the evils of christianity seem to spring from the eternal hell doctrine.

 

But from what I've seen even the universalist christians can be just as fundy. For example, this L Ray Smith guy that wrote the article, believes in creationism. He also believes gays go to hell too (although it's a remedial temporary hell). Basically the same as your regular fundy christian, but believes everyone will get into heaven in the end.

[Guest yoshi]

"Hell" is a horrible translation of She'ol. She'ol really just means "grave"

[Karl-777]

The dogma of an ever-burning "hell" was invented by the fundies to keep the sheeple in line and paralyzed with fear, so that the hierocracy could maintain control. Since the only way to stay out of "hell" was allegedly to be an organization member in good standing, the threat of excommunication/religious ostracization was always held over the heads of the herd to maintain compliance with home-made doctrines and "commandments". As far as they are concerned, piss on the Internal Process of Personal Spiritual Growth and Development, they're more content to concentrate on the externalities of religionism/tradition/home-made dogma. (of course, with so many sects around, just who the fuck does have the "only true" dogma anyway?)

 

The fundamentalist prelates' alliance with the power of the state ensures that their vicious and barbarous stranglehold can be maintained. Of course, the goal of present-day religionists is to return to "the good old days" of the hell on earth of theocratic domination, ignorance, guilt-mongering, violence, corruption, greed, societal repression and misery.

 

In the seemingly endless comments above, the typical "scriptural" cross-referencing occurs. As we have demonstrated here on numerous occasions, the biblical incongruity, self-contradiction, error, baseless literalized Myth and pseudepigraphy show that it can not be the "word" of a "perfect" biblegod, and thus is a construct of men, which means it is not a valid authority upon which to base anything claiming to be "the only way to be saved". I give Smith credit for somewhat standing up to Kennedy ("this is a Christian nation") and rabid Christian Zionist Hagee.

 

My own personal perspective is that "hell" is the total absence of Love, Light and Life and nothing more. The reader may have a different perspective, but that is mine.

 

"Dr." K, ExC PhD/BSD #107 (<==just insert name & your member# like I did) in fundie exclusionist bullshit detection

[Godless Wonder]

If Jesus was God, then Jesus should damn well know what hell is all about.

 

Read the tail end of Matthew, ch. 25, in which Jesus, God Himself, allegedly says:

 

25:045 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you,

        Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did

        it not to me.

 

25:046 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the

        righteous into life eternal.

 

Jesus, God Himself, according to the bible, prescribes "everlasting punishment."

 

These Christians who try to soft-pedal, downplay, and flat out deny the doctrine of hell because it makes their God into a monster exhibit a hell-worthy lack of faith and convenient selective lack of Bible knowledge.

 

If the Christian God exists as described in the Bible, there is no escaping the fact that He is an evil, lying monster.

[Godless Wonder]

My own personal perspective is that "hell" is the total absence of Love, Light and Life and nothing more. The reader may have a different perspective, but that is mine.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So in other words, the "fire" part is just a metaphor, but it is still everlasting punishment, and fire is an apt metaphor, correct? Your god is still a monster, your watering down of the punishment fails utterly to make him a loving god.

[Merlinfmct87]

PRAISE JESUS!!

 

We must truly thank the Good Lord that for this deliverance from trandslation damnation! I'm going to go over to TFN right now and tell everybody to put away this paganistic theory of hell! It is of Satan!!!

 

*goes over to TFN*

 

*seaches for a hell thread to correct*

 

AHA! FOUND ONE!

 

The Doctrine of Hell

 

*reads*

 

Hrm... wait a minute... they're using the same funny sounding words... and saying they mean hell...

 

Must be a heretic.

 

No, wait... he's a biblical christian. Damn, he's the first member! HE STARTED THE PLACE!

 

Phew. For a minute there I thought my ticket to the Great Desert in the Sky was being re-routed...

 

And if there's one thing I hate... it's being fed a patronizing lie. You expect me to beieve that a doctrine that's been around since the beginning is due to a mistrandslation?

 

Merlin

[nirrti]

So in other words, the "fire" part is just a metaphor, but it is still everlasting punishment, and fire is an apt metaphor, correct?  Your god is still a monster, your watering down of the punishment fails utterly to make him a loving god.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It doesn't matter what exactly hell's supposed to be. The intent is the same, to punish humans for eternity, no parole, no call from the governor, no mercy just because of a lack of belief. We give our worst criminals far more mercy than that. Why can't a supposedly merciful god do what he commands that humans do themselves and forgive without the Jesus strings attached?

[Guest godleydemon]

I believe that when you die that our souls are all part of a source, when our souls accend we return to that source till it is our time to be ressurected either in this plane or another, thats my belief anyways. This text is out there but also makes some valid points sheol is and I agree the worst translation out there, lol.