godlessgrrl Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Well, yesterday was my mother's birthday. I called her up to wish her a good one and we got into a convo about life, family, the general stuff. At one point she mentioned she had a question that really didn't have anything to do with what we were talking about. Then she asked, "So what was it that made you decide not to be a Xian anymore?" Expecting a fight I took a deep breath and said, "Well, it was really a lot of things. Why?" And she mentioned that she'd been thinking about it and at some point she wanted to sit down privately and talk about why and what the process was. Convo wandered to other things from there. She touched briefly on a couple of things she'd been taught religionwise, and wondered what I thought about them, thus giving me the opportunity to tell her she really needed to stop listening to what conservative fundy sources told her because they were usually bullshit. Then I think we started talking about my dad, then other family stuff, and the usual. Weird, though. I'm not sure what to think or expect. She didn't ask or say anything in any kind of demanding, "how could you do this??" kind of way, she seems genuinely to want to know what the process was. So I guess I'll be talking to her about it at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dianka Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Are you weirded out by your mother's questions about your decisions.? I am just asking because I would be. My clone sister recently started asking me questions about why I have taken such an interest in all of this, and I just found the whole conversation awkward, but then we don't generally have conversations about anything. All we really do with each other is crack jokes. We were raised Catholic and I think up until the point that I started reading books on the subject, she has never questioned what she really believes. She seems to be coming around though. I don't think she will ever consider herself an atheist, but I think she is pretty much done with Jesus. I saw her reading one of my books on Buddhism, maybe that is where she is headed. Anyway, I hope your mother realizes what a crock all of it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sofia Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Gwenmead, This past summer I went out to lunch with my mother and for some reason the conversation led to our dissatisfaction with the church we attend. The more the conversation moved along the more I realized I was speaking of my own doubts with her and not just venting about the church. What surprised me is that she was nodding her head in agreement with what I was saying. I brought up the doctrine of hell and spoke of Noah's flood. I even touched on "What if I'd been raised in a Islamic family and know that my convictions would be just as strong?" She even agreed with that. All in all it was a give and take conversation but I came away knowing that my mom has had her own doubts over the years and probably refused to question in fear of her kids walking away from God, thus causing a break-down in generations of believers. I would say that you should continue to have open discussions with her. Let her hear your thoughts and then she can sort them out on her own. You are expressing your point of view, not impressing your thoughts onto her. Keep the dialogue open. Sofi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LloydDobler Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 ...mom has had her own doubts over the years and probably refused to question in fear of her kids walking away from God, thus causing a break-down in generations of believers. Which, ironically, would be a great benefit to those subsequent generations. Lying to your kids for an ideal you don't even believe in is pretty silly, confusing, and just sets them up to do the same thing. It's very liberating to say what you actually think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted December 13, 2005 Author Share Posted December 13, 2005 Both good posts, thanks for the responses. We haven't sat down for The Big Discussion yet so there isn't anything substantial to be weirded out by - at least not yet. And I don't know if there will be. Honestly, I feel both positive and edgy about talking to her. I feel positive that she wants to know, and I feel hopeful that it'll just be an informational "here's where I'm coming from" kind of honest exchange. I feel good that I might even plant seeds of doubt in her mind. I don't think I'd want to try to deconvert her entirely, because her religion has given her a great deal of comfort and guidance over the years. I do feel good about having the chance to tell her that fundamentalist dogma is bunk. Maybe she'd loosen up with that. The edgy part is - well, to be perfectly frank, I'm pretty paranoid about talking to Xians. I really really really am not into some of the stupid arguments and the frustrating attempts at reconversion or what. That kind of stuff would weird me out. It especially pisses me off to have some Xian spend time looking like they're getting to know me, and have it turn out that they're doing so just to look for an easy in, so to speak - looking for holes to slip their religion into. Fucking spiritual rapists. But y'know, at least she's asking. At least she wants to know something about it. That's not necessarily bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sofia Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 ...mom has had her own doubts over the years and probably refused to question in fear of her kids walking away from God, thus causing a break-down in generations of believers. Which, ironically, would be a great benefit to those subsequent generations. Lying to your kids for an ideal you don't even believe in is pretty silly, confusing, and just sets them up to do the same thing. It's very liberating to say what you actually think. I don't think she was lying. I think she flat out refused to question in fear of the answers that may come. She is the most tender and gracious woman I have ever met and her reasons for not questioning were to keep peace in the family. Whether that is right or wrong is a different subject. However, I know I saw some relief on her face that I was asking the questions she didn't dare ask. We talk openly about it now, for the most part------and only when we're alone. Both good posts, thanks for the responses. We haven't sat down for The Big Discussion yet so there isn't anything substantial to be weirded out by - at least not yet. And I don't know if there will be. Honestly, I feel both positive and edgy about talking to her. I feel positive that she wants to know, and I feel hopeful that it'll just be an informational "here's where I'm coming from" kind of honest exchange. I feel good that I might even plant seeds of doubt in her mind. I don't think I'd want to try to deconvert her entirely, because her religion has given her a great deal of comfort and guidance over the years. I do feel good about having the chance to tell her that fundamentalist dogma is bunk. Maybe she'd loosen up with that. I don't think it's ever right to help somebody deconvert. It's such a personal thing and because so much of a person's beliefs are based on faith, how the heck are you going to argue it anyway? But I do think if questions are being asked, you should give honest answers from your own perspective, ending the conversation with something like......"Mom, this is something you'll have to figure out on your own. No matter what....I love you." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LloydDobler Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 I don't think she was lying. I think she flat out refused to question in fear of the answers that may come. She is the most tender and gracious woman I have ever met and her reasons for not questioning were to keep peace in the family. Whether that is right or wrong is a different subject. However, I know I saw some relief on her face that I was asking the questions she didn't dare to ask. We talk openly about it now, for the most part------and only when we're alone. I know lying is a strong word and I certainly don't mean it with a sneer or attitude, but I think it's the most accurate word I conclude, in hindsight. I certainly refused to acknowledge that I was lying to myself for nearly a decade as a christian. But I was. Refusing to question because you suspect or know the outcome is a kind of a lie. Just know that I'm speaking from sympathetic experience, not criticism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sofia Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 I know lying is a strong word and I certainly don't mean it with a sneer or attitude, but I think it's the most accurate word I conclude, in hindsight. I certainly refused to acknowledge that I was lying to myself for nearly a decade as a christian. But I was. Refusing to question because you suspect or know the outcome is a kind of a lie. Just know that I'm speaking from sympathetic experience, not criticism. I know you weren't being critical. She believed, continues to believe and will probably always believe......but she was so afraid to express doubts of any kind. I think that's where the relief came in. After 70 years to be able to express that, if only for a moment, must have felt good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LloydDobler Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 to be able to express that, if only for a moment, must have felt good. Of course it does, as we both know. To be able to express it 24/7 feels even better though. JOIN US.... hehehe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted December 13, 2005 Author Share Posted December 13, 2005 I don't think it's ever right to help somebody deconvert. It's such a personal thing and because so much of a person's beliefs are based on faith, how the heck are you going to argue it anyway? But I do think if questions are being asked, you should give honest answers from your own perspective, ending the conversation with something like......"Mom, this is something you'll have to figure out on your own. No matter what....I love you." Well yeah, I probably didn't word that very well. What I meant is that I don't want to approach any discussion with the ultimate goal of changing her mind or deconverting her, so I won't be looking at it like that's the purpose. It's just to talk. It'll be interesting. I'll post about it, if and when it happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 My stepmom has asked me why I deconverted multiple times. But then when I tell her the truth, she starts asking more questions. Then, she keeps telling me "You were raised that you have to participate in church. You don't have to participate, just go for the social support." I NEVER got any social support from the church, even when I did believe. If anything, I was treated like an outcast, even then, just because I am a geek. Even when my mom was dying, they supported her and my father, but not me. Everyone ignored me, and when they didn't ignore me completely, I was treated badly. And I was in high school then. Well, gee, maybe if I was extroverted like her and had that strong need for being around people all the time, I would go. Or maybe if I had been accepted in the first place for who I am, I would go. But I don't have that strong of a need for being social. I'm introverted. I'm a member of a Trek fan club and a writing group. I'm 30. My personality isn't going to magically change. That's probably as social as I'm ever going to get. She just hasn't really accepted that yet, I suspect. And I tried the liberal church. I didn't really fit in there, either, because I couldn't believe in any part of the 2000 year-old myth or pretend to believe in it. I can't live a lie, and I wish my family would stop asking me to live one. I just wish that they would stop acting like something was wrong with me. Maybe it is. I don't know anymore. Someday they probably will label perfectly normal introversion as a personality disorder and give us drugs for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dianka Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 I NEVER got any social support from the church, even when I <i>did</i> believe. If anything, I was treated like an outcast, even then, just because I am a geek. Even when my mom was dying, they supported her and my father, but not me. Everyone ignored me, and when they didn't ignore me completely, I was treated badly. And I was in high school then. I suddenly became really sad reading this. Outcast empathy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Challenger Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 (Lloyd Dobler) Of course it does, as we both know. To be able to express it 24/7 feels even better though. Man, there is nothing better than being able to speak your mind. You do have to be willing to deal with the consequences. Sometime it can cost a lot. But I've found it a price worth paying, over and over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 I suddenly became really sad reading this. Outcast empathy Well, college was a much better time for me. Of course, I was away from the church then, too. Go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LloydDobler Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 I don't think it's ever right to help somebody deconvert. It's such a personal thing and because so much of a person's beliefs are based on faith, how the heck are you going to argue it anyway? But I do think if questions are being asked, you should give honest answers from your own perspective, ending the conversation with something like......"Mom, this is something you'll have to figure out on your own. No matter what....I love you." Do you think it's ever right to help someone convert? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 Aaaah, so many postings in the thread, so much wisdom in there... I desperately want to add something to it all, but try as I might I can't think of anything that hasn't been said already Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sofia Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 I don't think it's ever right to help somebody deconvert. It's such a personal thing and because so much of a person's beliefs are based on faith, how the heck are you going to argue it anyway? But I do think if questions are being asked, you should give honest answers from your own perspective, ending the conversation with something like......"Mom, this is something you'll have to figure out on your own. No matter what....I love you." Do you think it's ever right to help someone convert? I believe that one can share their beliefs with someone through their actions and their words, but only if asked. I know where you're going with this, Lloyd and no, it's not right to force your beliefs on anyone. And when I say actions, I don't mean standing on a street corner screaming your message to those who do not want to hear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caretaker Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 As far as someone helping someone deconvert... Were you referring to someone *causing* someone to deconvert.. Or someone helping someone cope with deconversion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sofia Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 As far as someone helping someone deconvert... Were you referring to someone *causing* someone to deconvert.. Or someone helping someone cope with deconversion? Causing......forcing. Coping would be what Ex-C is all about. I'm certainly not against that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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