The Fruits of Christianity

[Kryten]

This is not about why it's popular-- that's a subject for another thread, or at least another post...

 

What is good about Christianity?

 

Is it the high morals of Christians themselves? Their consistently higher intellect that we should covet? Their purity throughout the ages we should desire?

 

What is to be admired?

 

- The Unity?

There are thousands of different denominations all stemming from the same book. Nearly all believe they are the correct one, and that many of the others are false or will lead its followers to hell.

Christians cannot agree on the MOST BASIC doctrine on how to be saved! They disagree on babtism (how/when/importance). They disagree on so-called moral issues such as capital punishment, abortion, homosexuality, what is child abuse, and reliance on modern medicine or technology. They disagree on which parts of the bible to take literally, which parts are important, which parts no longer apply, and which parts should even be included!

 

- Consistency of Beliefs?

The early church boasted about NOT celebrating any holidays like the pagans and heathens. But the winter solctace and spring celebrations were too popular to kill off. The early Christians in America refused to follow or allow Christmas. But today Christians defend it like it was their own.

The OT is full of commandments to KEEP THE SABBATH HOLY! There are examples of what to do to anyone working on that day (death). Yet most Christians do on Sunday what they are commanded to do on Saturday.

In the OT, all the great men (David, Solomon, etc) had multiple wives and perhaps concubines or handmaidens. Apparently sex with many women was a good thing when those same men were writing the laws, but somehow it's not okay now (-unless you're Mormon).

So they have changed their beliefs as society changes. They may claim an unchanging God, but both He and the church change with the times. Very inconsistent.

 

- Consistency of the Scriptures?

If the Bible is supposed to be from God, why are there so many contradictions? There are four different accounts of the resurrection, each with details refuted in the others. This is supposed to be the very event that we MUST accept and believe in order to avoid eternal torture, yet the contradictions (and utter absence of secular evidence) scream that they are works of fiction.

 

- The Good Fruits?

Crusades, inquisition, Columbus and the indigenous people of the Americas; scientists burned at the stake or imprisoned; other Christian leaders burned alive by the church-- such as Jan Hus?

If God is Love, then why have Christians historically hated, killed, tortured, and opressed so many who didn't agree exactly as they do?

The fruits of Christianity are intollerance, hatred, fear, guilt, and an anti-science/anti-learning bias.

 

- The Accuracy and Science of The Bible?

To be fair, nowhere in the Bible does it say the earth is only six to seven thousand years old. But many Christians believe that because if you calculate the ages of the people mentioned, you must come up with a time frame of up to 9000 years max. It is a FACT that the earth is older than 10,000 years. There is EVIDENCE that it is somewhere over 4 billion years old.

It is a fact that the Earth wasn't created before the sun. Plants did not appear before the sun.

Genesis is so full of crap that it boggles the mind that anyone actually believes it.

There are many other inaccuracies in history and geography of the Bible.

 

- The High Morals of its Leaders?

Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baaker, Pat Robertson, Paul Crouch, all the sex-scandals? That could get too ugly, so I won't go there.

 

- The Logic of God's Plan?

God is All-Powerful, He MADE the laws, He KNEW when He made man that man would fail, and He knew the results-- yet He still needed to become a man and sacrifice Himself to Himself, in order to appease Himself? Is He not powerful or smart enough to change His own rules-- like He apparently did with the sabbath and polygamy laws?

 

- The Love of God?

God created Adam, placed him in a garden with the Tree of Knowledge right near the center, then told him that he is not to eat from it. God also allowed a serpent to visit the man's wife and convince her that if she WERE to eat the fruit, she would be like her daddy. Knowledge must be a good thing or God wouldn't have created the tree in the first place, right? Otherwise the whole setup would be some kind of sick trap. By definition, Adam and Eve did NOT know right from wrong, so there is no reason to hold them accountable for any actions that we would consider wrong. Everything the serpent said was true. So after they ate the fruit, God got angry and sentenced every human that would ever be born to eternal torture by fire. The only way out is to HEAR the gospel, believe the stories, and devote your life and mind to Jesus. All others will be sent to hell. All those born outside the Christian influence, or before the doctrine was decided, or mentally incapable, or died too young, or didn't believe exactly the right way (Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, etc), would all be sentenced to an ETERNITY OF TORTURE! Babies, Asians, those too dumb, those too smart-- to hell with all of them!

No greater love my ass. Everyone here has greater love than the deity descibed in the pages of the Bible.

 

It's so hard to see the big picture when you're trapped inside the frame, splattered on the canvas. I'm glad I'm on the outside now...

[Vixentrox]

The artwork and arcitecture of European cathedrals, if you can get past the way the church got the money to pay for it all.

[Amethyst]

I agree with the artwork.

[Checkmate]

What is worth admiring? Lots!

 

The manipulations, the intimidations, the tortures, the extortion of money and the brainwashing techniques. These innovations are enough to bring a sinister smile to the face of any seasoned, corrupt government official or crime lord.

 

Yes, the world owes a great debt of gratitude to the church for improving our lives in this way.

 

 

 

 

Is my cynicism showing again? Sorry about that.

[Lycorth]

What is worth saving about Xianity? The entire history - because if we forget it, it could happen again.

 

What is worth admiring? Really, in regards to the genuine basics of the religion and the kinds of societies it has encouraged, nothing. A religion is only as good as the ethics and lifestyle it encourages; when it encourages harmful beliefs and practices, it needs to go.

[nightflight]

The food.

[Ian]

the music...and the architecture..

 

that is bout it...

[All Gods Fail]

Nice rant, Kryten! Sums it up nicely. It seems to me that the real, saintly xtians who are good and nice towards their fellow humans are like that by nature. God ends up getting all the credit, but the good ones would prolly be good if they were atheists, Muslim, etc. No gods needed.

 

Christians cannot agree on the MOST BASIC doctrine on how to be saved! They disagree on babtism (how/when/importance). They disagree on so-called moral issues such as capital punishment, abortion, homosexuality, what is child abuse, and reliance on modern medicine or technology. They disagree on which parts of the bible to take literally, which parts are important, which parts no longer apply, and which parts should even be included!

 

Don't forget - they also kill each other over doctrine. Belfast, anyone?

[Poonis]

My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race. I cannot, however, deny that it has made some contributions to civilization. It helped in early days to fix the calendar, and it caused Egyptian priests to chronicle eclipses with such care that in time they became able to predict them. These two services I am prepared to acknowledge, but I do not know of any others.

-- Bertrand Russell, "Has Religion Made Useful Contributions to Civilization?"

[SkepticOfBible]

Some of the Music. My favourite John Cale "Hallejuah", and christmas

[Amethyst]

The food.

 

LOL. Okay, having been raised Lutheran in MN and having gone to lots of pootlucks & funerals, I won't disagree with that. There is something to be said for comfort foods like brownies, jello, and hotdish. But I'd rather eat it someplace besides a church basement.

[Sofia]

Some of the Music. My favourite John Cale "Hallejuah", and christmas

 

Yes....

 

Handel's "Messiah"

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

I can think of two things, altho neither is unique to christianity...

 

First, religions can inspire great works of art such as the music that people have written about in earlier posts and such as the architecture of great cathedrals, temples, mosques, etc.

 

Second, I think that religions can change behavior for the good in some people for some amount of time. There are people who do good things that they wouldn't have otherwise done because they think their religion requires them to, or because they are genuinely inspired to do these things by their religious beliefs.

 

That said, I think religions (christianity included) also result in destruction and suppression of art - especially art that conflicts with the particular religious beliefs. It also causes people to do bad things they wouldn't otherwise do (such as suppress the rights of women or homosexuals). Christianity in particular harms the human spirit by insisting that all humans are so evil by nature that they deserve to spend eternity in punishment - that has definitely harmed humankind immensely.

 

It's still my opinion that christianity does more harm than good, but there are instances where it has borne positive fruits. As has Mormanism, Islam, Zeusism, Naziism, etc. On the whole, tho, I think the bad outweighs the good.

[loves_learning]

God created Adam, placed him in a garden with the Tree of Knowledge right near the center, then told him that he is not to eat from it. God also allowed a serpent to visit the man's wife and convince her that if she WERE to eat the fruit, she would be like her daddy. Knowledge must be a good thing or God wouldn't have created the tree in the first place, right? Otherwise the whole setup would be some kind of sick trap. By definition, Adam and Eve did NOT know right from wrong, so there is no reason to hold them accountable for any actions that we would consider wrong. Everything the serpent said was true. So after they ate the fruit, God got angry and sentenced every human that would ever be born to eternal torture by fire. The only way out is to HEAR the gospel, believe the stories, and devote your life and mind to Jesus. All others will be sent to hell.

 

That isn't exactly true. Hell didn't even exist in the OT, it isn't mentioned anywhere. Sheol was the "land of the dead," and was basically a place that everyone went when they died, kind of an underworld type of place. It wasn't punishment, it wasn't reward, it is just what happened according to the cosmology of the people's who scripted the books.

 

Hell was invented in the NT, and started out as a reference to punishment from god, and most likely it was a reference to giant trash dumps that were always burning. People compared it to the dumps...and eventually the idea of hell came about.

 

There are thousands of different denominations all stemming from the same book.

 

Funny...this didn't happen until power was given to the people...the Reformation. Yes, there was a schism between the Eastern and Western churches...but in general, there weren't so many denoms.

 

Genesis is so full of crap that it boggles the mind that anyone actually believes it.

 

Yes...but that book was probably constructed for several other stories floating around...and it was never meant to be taken the way that modern people take it. It was an ancient cosmology that compares quite nicely to other cosmologies written around the same time period. It probably made loads of sense in 500 BCE.

 

What is worth admiring? Really, in regards to the genuine basics of the religion and the kinds of societies it has encouraged, nothing. A religion is only as good as the ethics and lifestyle it encourages; when it encourages harmful beliefs and practices, it needs to go.

 

Ever heard of the concept of "we create God in our own image"? I think that is what you could be addressing here. Fact of the matter is that the Bible and religions it has "inspired" pick what makes the most sense to them from the available scriptures, and use what they need to/want to. Is that a conscious choice? Who knows...it may have been in times past, and it may be now. The problem is interpretation, and there is no way to standardize that without a centralized authority, which is why I commented on the Reformation earlier. Do I think that the church pre-Reformation was good? Not really. But they had consistent beliefs...and those beliefs were enforced.

 

Anyway, I don't think that you can talk about Christianity as if it is one BIG thing. There are lots of Christianities, and some of them are much better than others. What about liberation theology? South American Xns fighting for the human rights of the most poverty stricken people and those that are persecuted by their governments? What about peace-working Mennonites? What about liberal Christians in this country, who think that God loves everyone and creates them all to be exactly what he wanted them to be, whether straight, gay, whatever? Mormons have some of the lowest rates of heart disease and obesity, among other health problems, because according to their religion they are commanded to care for their bodies. So...lowering health care costs for the rest of the nation?

 

The point I'm getting at is that none of these strands of Christianity is perfect, but you cannot simply write off an entire group of people, lumped together for no reason because they may not have anything in common. Yes, there are definetly bad points to each of these traditions. But, in general, there can be good things too. Social justice is important, and I don't care what inspires people to work for human rights worldwide, as long as they do it.

[loves_learning]

Here's a great example of what I was talking about...liberal Christians in the United States. Many papers reported that these protesters were "on the left," but they were Christian protesters sitting in the freezing cold trying to bring attention to the immorality of the massive budget cuts the congress is imposing to health care and social programs.

 

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N14324773.htm

[Antlerman]

The food.

 

LOL. Okay, having been raised Lutheran in MN and having gone to lots of pootlucks & funerals, I won't disagree with that. There is something to be said for comfort foods like brownies, jello, and hotdish. But I'd rather eat it someplace besides a church basement.

Hey that's great Amethyst! I just went to the Lutefisk dinner here at the Swedish Institute on Park Avenue two Sundays ago. A relative was planning go to one of the Lutheran churches for another afterward (Mt. Olivet Lutheran I think)! Ooo Yummy!

 

Now, Jesus and the Apostles didn't bring the world Lutefisk, but the institution of religion does help sustain cultures and traditions, as is evident by the popularity of fish Jell-O round these parts!

[Toxic]

This is not about why it's popular-- that's a subject for another thread, or at least another post...

 

What is good about Christianity?

 

Is it the high morals of Christians themselves? Their consistently higher intellect that we should covet? Their purity throughout the ages we should desire?

 

What is to be admired?

 

- The Unity?

There are thousands of different denominations all stemming from the same book. Nearly all believe they are the correct one, and that many of the others are false or will lead its followers to hell.

Christians cannot agree on the MOST BASIC doctrine on how to be saved! They disagree on babtism (how/when/importance). They disagree on so-called moral issues such as capital punishment, abortion, homosexuality, what is child abuse, and reliance on modern medicine or technology. They disagree on which parts of the bible to take literally, which parts are important, which parts no longer apply, and which parts should even be included!

 

- Consistency of Beliefs?

The early church boasted about NOT celebrating any holidays like the pagans and heathens. But the winter solctace and spring celebrations were too popular to kill off. The early Christians in America refused to follow or allow Christmas. But today Christians defend it like it was their own.

The OT is full of commandments to KEEP THE SABBATH HOLY! There are examples of what to do to anyone working on that day (death). Yet most Christians do on Sunday what they are commanded to do on Saturday.

In the OT, all the great men (David, Solomon, etc) had multiple wives and perhaps concubines or handmaidens. Apparently sex with many women was a good thing when those same men were writing the laws, but somehow it's not okay now (-unless you're Mormon).

So they have changed their beliefs as society changes. They may claim an unchanging God, but both He and the church change with the times. Very inconsistent.

 

- Consistency of the Scriptures?

If the Bible is supposed to be from God, why are there so many contradictions? There are four different accounts of the resurrection, each with details refuted in the others. This is supposed to be the very event that we MUST accept and believe in order to avoid eternal torture, yet the contradictions (and utter absence of secular evidence) scream that they are works of fiction.

 

- The Good Fruits?

Crusades, inquisition, Columbus and the indigenous people of the Americas; scientists burned at the stake or imprisoned; other Christian leaders burned alive by the church-- such as Jan Hus?

If God is Love, then why have Christians historically hated, killed, tortured, and opressed so many who didn't agree exactly as they do?

The fruits of Christianity are intollerance, hatred, fear, guilt, and an anti-science/anti-learning bias.

 

- The Accuracy and Science of The Bible?

To be fair, nowhere in the Bible does it say the earth is only six to seven thousand years old. But many Christians believe that because if you calculate the ages of the people mentioned, you must come up with a time frame of up to 9000 years max. It is a FACT that the earth is older than 10,000 years. There is EVIDENCE that it is somewhere over 4 billion years old.

It is a fact that the Earth wasn't created before the sun. Plants did not appear before the sun.

Genesis is so full of crap that it boggles the mind that anyone actually believes it.

There are many other inaccuracies in history and geography of the Bible.

 

- The High Morals of its Leaders?

Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baaker, Pat Robertson, Paul Crouch, all the sex-scandals? That could get too ugly, so I won't go there.

 

- The Logic of God's Plan?

God is All-Powerful, He MADE the laws, He KNEW when He made man that man would fail, and He knew the results-- yet He still needed to become a man and sacrifice Himself to Himself, in order to appease Himself? Is He not powerful or smart enough to change His own rules-- like He apparently did with the sabbath and polygamy laws?

 

- The Love of God?

God created Adam, placed him in a garden with the Tree of Knowledge right near the center, then told him that he is not to eat from it. God also allowed a serpent to visit the man's wife and convince her that if she WERE to eat the fruit, she would be like her daddy. Knowledge must be a good thing or God wouldn't have created the tree in the first place, right? Otherwise the whole setup would be some kind of sick trap. By definition, Adam and Eve did NOT know right from wrong, so there is no reason to hold them accountable for any actions that we would consider wrong. Everything the serpent said was true. So after they ate the fruit, God got angry and sentenced every human that would ever be born to eternal torture by fire. The only way out is to HEAR the gospel, believe the stories, and devote your life and mind to Jesus. All others will be sent to hell. All those born outside the Christian influence, or before the doctrine was decided, or mentally incapable, or died too young, or didn't believe exactly the right way (Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, etc), would all be sentenced to an ETERNITY OF TORTURE! Babies, Asians, those too dumb, those too smart-- to hell with all of them!

No greater love my ass. Everyone here has greater love than the deity descibed in the pages of the Bible.

 

It's so hard to see the big picture when you're trapped inside the frame, splattered on the canvas. I'm glad I'm on the outside now...

 

Good rant Kryten, however you forgot to mention paedophile clergy as good fruits.

[Ssel]

What is good about Christianity?

Define "good". All thing are relative, right? Soooo....

 

 

The bible also has sayings that basically teach evil cannot do good and vice versa, they are known as fruits, be it good or bad. The fruits of the bible are responsible for not just bad, but horrific fruits.

This is something that isn't as simple to prove as it seems. For the Bible to be responsible for something, you have to look at what would have been there without the Bible. This ends up being a very long stretch of imagination ladened with false hopes, rationales, and dreams. You can easily ignore what appears to be the good of something so that you can justify attacking the bad.

 

In the NT, many of these laws are being condemned, not all of them. Jesus emphasizes the spirit of things versus making firm laws. This conforms with the idea of holding no “graven image” as sacred. He apparently could see that acquiring a holy spirit within was the only way for a man to truly know when to do what. But the process to do this and even what it means was not protected from misunderstandings and has become skewed.

 

Proposing that something other than what has transpired using the Bible would have been better is a very, very dubious task. It is difficult enough to merely propose anything today that would be provably better.

 

We have been discussing what is logically provable, not merely supposing about something that might have been better. It is easy to throw proposals of preference into society without really checking the logic and probable consequences of your proposal. But when it comes to proposing something better for today -

 

Wanting to throw out the baby with the bath wash??

 

Can you propose a truly Holy Law?

[crazy-tiger]

Define "good". All thing are relative, right?

Define "all"...

 

Can you propose a truly Holy Law?

Define "holy"...

[Amethyst]

The food.

 

LOL. Okay, having been raised Lutheran in MN and having gone to lots of pootlucks & funerals, I won't disagree with that. There is something to be said for comfort foods like brownies, jello, and hotdish. But I'd rather eat it someplace besides a church basement.

Hey that's great Amethyst! I just went to the Lutefisk dinner here at the Swedish Institute on Park Avenue two Sundays ago. A relative was planning go to one of the Lutheran churches for another afterward (Mt. Olivet Lutheran I think)! Ooo Yummy!

 

Now, Jesus and the Apostles didn't bring the world Lutefisk, but the institution of religion does help sustain cultures and traditions, as is evident by the popularity of fish Jell-O round these parts!

 

ROTFLMAO. Did I actually type pootlucks?

 

Note to self: never type before having sufficient caffeine.

[Cerise]

The art, the music, the literature.

[pug]

What is to be admired?

 

I don't know if it is to be admired or not, but the fact that some people thought up a story that people are still believing in today. Even after 2000 years have passed and the dead person in question has not returned. People still cling to the story.

 

Now THAT is to be admired. God, after 2,000 years it's still going strong. Admirable.

[Vigile]

Now THAT is to be admired. God, after 2,000 years it's still going strong. Admirable.

 

Don't get too excited Pug. The story has changed dramatically over that period of time thanks to "reformers" such as Calvin and Luther and thanks to the evolution of society in general. Your brand of xtianity looks nothing like the brand the first believers swallowed.

[pug]

Now THAT is to be admired. God, after 2,000 years it's still going strong. Admirable.

 

Don't get too excited Pug. The story has changed dramatically over that period of time thanks to "reformers" such as Calvin and Luther and thanks to the evolution of society in general. Your brand of xtianity looks nothing like the brand the first believers swallowed.

 

wa ka ka what brand? Same brand, some for oily hair, dry hair, normal hair... still cleanses fine...

[Vixentrox]

Buddhism been around longer with a multitude of adherents.