"atheists Need As Much Faith As Christians."

[QualifiedCommenter]

At least for my church, especially in the youth group, this was one of those phrases that was tossed around a lot, that atheists need just as much, if not more, faith than Christians to believe what they believe. They would generally toss up some out-there assumption of the big-bang theory as a follow up.

 

Even as a Christian I always found this one somewhat of an ignorant assumption, since I recognized that there was a LOT more to the big bang theory than what people at my church assumed. (Even as a Christian, young-earth creationism was too crazy for me. I never really believed that 6- 10,000 years crap, and I'm honestly a bit ashamed most people I know do believe that with all their heart.)

 

What do you think of this? Have you ever refuted this in detail to someone? What do you think of young-earth creationism and the people who believe it? Do you think most Christians honestly think the earth is 6000 years old or do a lot of them fake it?

[Deva]

It sounds stupid to me, and the 6,000 year old earth- I really think some of them believe it. I will not say most of them, many churches don't have that creation science doctrine forced on people.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

I have refuted this idea before. I have had people say that atheists "believe" in the big bang, as if it requires faith, usually saying something like, "You believe that nothing created itself and everything," though not always in those exact words. I have repeatedly had to say that atheism was simply the rejection of god claims for believers who had not proven that their god(s) were/was real as well explain the big bang theory (using information I have heard/read, since I'm not an expert on the subject) by telling them it's not a belief that there was once nothing and that an explosion brought the universe into existence from nothing. I have gone on to say that the universe once existed in a much smaller form than it does not and that it expanded. I don't know if I ever got through to anyone though, because most believers rely on what their pastors tell them.

[midniterider]

At least for my church, especially in the youth group, this was one of those phrases that was tossed around a lot, that atheists need just as much, if not more, faith than Christians to believe what they believe. They would generally toss up some out-there assumption of the big-bang theory as a follow up.

 

Even as a Christian I always found this one somewhat of an ignorant assumption, since I recognized that there was a LOT more to the big bang theory than what people at my church assumed. (Even as a Christian, young-earth creationism was too crazy for me. I never really believed that 6- 10,000 years crap, and I'm honestly a bit ashamed most people I know do believe that with all their heart.)

 

What do you think of this? Have you ever refuted this in detail to someone? What do you think of young-earth creationism and the people who believe it? Do you think most Christians honestly think the earth is 6000 years old or do a lot of them fake it?

 

Haven't had the opportunity yet to refute these things... but I'm watching a FB friend drink the Xian kool aid so maybe pretty soon I will. :-)

 

What is faith really but an expenditure of mental energy and time worshiping and  praying to jebus and reading the Babble. Also time and physical energy going to church and its associated activities.

 

What is atheism? Not wasting mental energy, physical energy and time doing religious stuff? So, no it appears to me that atheism would be easier.

[SilentLoner]

I ask them, faith in what exactly?

 

They can never seem to pinpoint it.

[kolaida]

I ask them, faith in what exactly?

 

They can never seem to pinpoint it.

 

Very good point! And I can see where that'd stump people. So true. Faith in what exactly? Gonna remember that one, thanks! 

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

I ask them, faith in what exactly?

 

They can never seem to pinpoint it.

 

Faith that no god exists, of course.

[directionless]

I agree that atheism requires faith IMO.  When a person makes a decision he/she has a variety of known beliefs with differing levels of faith.  On a case by case basis the person chooses this or that belief and takes some action.  So atheism is a belief requiring faith just like belief in banks, text books, etc.  One person might have more faith in atheism than another.  I have some faith in atheism and also some faith in Christianity and lots of uncertainty.

 

On the young earth theory, it seems like people only say they believe - cognitive dissonance.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

I agree that atheism requires faith IMO.  When a person makes a decision he/she has a variety of known beliefs with differing levels of faith.  On a case by case basis the person chooses this or that belief and takes some action.  So atheism is a belief requiring faith just like belief in banks, text books, etc.  One person might have more faith in atheism than another.

 

On the young earth theory, it seems like people only say they believe - cognitive dissonance.

 

Why do you think that atheism requires faith? Atheism is nothing but a lack of belief in god claims people make. If I told you that yesterday I saw a unicorn running down the road, would you believe me? If you rejected my claim on the basis of me failing to produce evidence, do you think it requires faith to disbelieve my claim?

[Joshpantera]

Oh boy, not this again. lol

 

FYI, atheism is not a positive assertion and it means a lack of, or absence of belief in God(s). This dead horse has been beat to hell several times over and across several different threads BTW. The most recent in the Lion's Den forum. Check it out for some back ground on the topic: 

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/57232-is-atheism-a-faith/

[Gamecock1973]

I always wonder why Christians assume I need to believe in the big bang theory or evolution to not believe in  god.  Really,  i couldn't care less about these scientific concepts nor did they have anything to do with my deconversion.  I haven't replaced god with science.  Maybe some atheists do.  I sometimes think science is interesting.  But i don't believe in the god of the bible because the bible is ridiculous and there is no evidence whatsoever for its claims.  Period.

[directionless]

 

I agree that atheism requires faith IMO.  When a person makes a decision he/she has a variety of known beliefs with differing levels of faith.  On a case by case basis the person chooses this or that belief and takes some action.  So atheism is a belief requiring faith just like belief in banks, text books, etc.  One person might have more faith in atheism than another.

 

On the young earth theory, it seems like people only say they believe - cognitive dissonance.

 

Why do you think that atheism requires faith? Atheism is nothing but a lack of belief in god claims people make. If I told you that yesterday I saw a unicorn running down the road, would you believe me? If you rejected my claim on the basis of me failing to produce evidence, do you think it requires faith to disbelieve my claim?

 

On the unicorn I would probably have some small faith - say 0.0037%.  Maybe somebody glued a horn on a horse for a movie?  Anyway enough said.

[bornagainathiest]

At least for my church, especially in the youth group, this was one of those phrases that was tossed around a lot, that atheists need just as much, if not more, faith than Christians to believe what they believe. They would generally toss up some out-there assumption of the big-bang theory as a follow up.

 

Even as a Christian I always found this one somewhat of an ignorant assumption, since I recognized that there was a LOT more to the big bang theory than what people at my church assumed. (Even as a Christian, young-earth creationism was too crazy for me. I never really believed that 6- 10,000 years crap, and I'm honestly a bit ashamed most people I know do believe that with all their heart.)

 

What do you think of this? Have you ever refuted this in detail to someone? What do you think of young-earth creationism and the people who believe it? Do you think most Christians honestly think the earth is 6000 years old or do a lot of them fake it?

 

QC,

 

I won't address your question about atheists needing faith, but I can point you to a certain section of Christianforums, which is the largest meeting place on the Internet for Christians to talk, debate and pray for each other.  This is the Origins Theology sub-forum, where Young Earth Creationist Christians debate with Theistic Evolutionist Christians.  The former assert that the Bible is literally true and therefore science is a tool of Satan, whereas the latter assert that some parts of the Bible must be taken metaphorically or allegorically, because science has shown that a 6,000 year old Earth and a global Flood are impossible.

 

http://www.christianforums.com/f143/

 

Sadly, millions (Yes, that's m-i-l-l-i-o-n-s... 1,000,000's...!) of YEC's actually believe that they are being lied to by scientists, when it comes to the age of the universe or the origins of the human species from earlier hominids and primates.  They practice a rigorous form of denial - consistently and vociferously denying any science that threatens their literalistic take on the Bible.

 

Oddly enough though, these same creationists are quite happy to use computers, drive cars, use satellite telecommunications and reap all the benefits science has given them - without realizing (or even stopping to think about it for a moment) that the same science that makes all of their devices work cannot function unless the universe is 13.8 billion years old!

 

QC, if I thought it would do any good I'd suggest to the YEC's that they use this facility... http://www.telescope.org/ ...to actually see for themselves how vast and ancient the cosmos really is.  But what would be the point of that? 

They'd only claim that the images downloading onto their computers are faked and therefore this information cannot be trusted.  The only real and trustworthy source of truth in their blinkered lives is the Bible.  For example...

 

"By definition, no apparent, perceived, or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record."

Answersingenesis.org

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[QualifiedCommenter]

Oddly enough though, these same creationists are quite happy to use computers, drive cars, use satellite telecommunications and reap all the benefits science has given them - without realizing (or even stopping to think about it for a moment) that the same science that makes all of their devices work cannot function unless the universe is 13.8 billion years old!

 

 

That's a very interesting thought. Can you give me some resources so I can look into this deeper, regarding technology we take for-granted that shows an ancient universe? I'd like to look into that more but I don't know exactly what to google.

[SRS]

I think there is a graduating faith that atheists use to interprete their world.

 

Take rain for instance. Back in Old Testament times people believed rain came from windows in the sky. People had no clue of its chemical makeup, or why it made the plants grow, and why it stopped their thirst. All they thought the knew was that it came from god. We now know what rain is and it requires no faith to believe in rain. On the other hand, it does take some faith to believe that something can come from nothing, such as with the big bang.

 

Like everything and everything that happens in this world there are unknown things yet to be explained. We don't need to use religious faith to explain that these are mysteries that involve a god. But we do need a little faith to believe that given a little bit of time science, facts, and reason will explain these mysteries.

[mymistake]

I think there is a graduating faith that atheists use to interprete their world.

 

Take rain for instance. Back in Old Testament times people believed rain came from windows in the sky. People had no clue of its chemical makeup, or why it made the plants grow, and why it stopped their thirst. All they thought the knew was that it came from god. We now know what rain is and it requires no faith to believe in rain. On the other hand, it does take some faith to believe that something can come from nothing, such as with the big bang.

 

Like everything and everything that happens in this world there are unknown things yet to be explained. We don't need to use religious faith to explain that these are mysteries that involve a god. But we do need a little faith to believe that given a little bit of time science, facts, and reason will explain these mysteries.

 

Where does the Big Bang theory ever state that there was a "nothing"?  For any point in time there was always something.  Something from something else is not "something from nothing".

 

 

 

Just to clarify for those who are not familiar with the Big Bang theory:

 

It states that before things started expanding there was a singularity (like a super-massive black hole) and this singularity contained, in one form or another, all the energy and matter that is now in our universe.  It was all there before the Big Bang only in a much smaller size.

[bornagainathiest]

 

Oddly enough though, these same creationists are quite happy to use computers, drive cars, use satellite telecommunications and reap all the benefits science has given them - without realizing (or even stopping to think about it for a moment) that the same science that makes all of their devices work cannot function unless the universe is 13.8 billion years old!

 

 

That's a very interesting thought. Can you give me some resources so I can look into this deeper, regarding technology we take for-granted that shows an ancient universe? I'd like to look into that more but I don't know exactly what to google.

 

Hang in there QC!

 

I'll organize something and get back to you sometime early next week, ok?

 

Cheers,

 

BAA

[SRS]

 

I think there is a graduating faith that atheists use to interprete their world.

 

Take rain for instance. Back in Old Testament times people believed rain came from windows in the sky. People had no clue of its chemical makeup, or why it made the plants grow, and why it stopped their thirst. All they thought the knew was that it came from god. We now know what rain is and it requires no faith to believe in rain. On the other hand, it does take some faith to believe that something can come from nothing, such as with the big bang.

 

Like everything and everything that happens in this world there are unknown things yet to be explained. We don't need to use religious faith to explain that these are mysteries that involve a god. But we do need a little faith to believe that given a little bit of time science, facts, and reason will explain these mysteries.

 

Where does the Big Bang theory ever state that there was a "nothing"?  For any point in time there was always something.  Something from something else is not "something from nothing".

 

 

 

Just to clarify for those who are not familiar with the Big Bang theory:

 

It states that before things started expanding there was a singularity (like a super-massive black hole) and this singularity contained, in one form or another, all the energy and matter that is now in our universe.  It was all there before the Big Bang only in a much smaller size.

 

My mistake. Most of the Christians I converse with don't agree that energy and matter have always existed. They view the theory as a "something from nothing," theory, and they use this as evidence that a god must have created energy and matter. The reason it is still a theory, is because no one can really prove what the universe looked like before the big bang, or specifically, explain in factual detail how all the energy and matter in the universe existed before the big bang in so little space.

 

My point was in the faith department. Science is in the business of factually explaining our world. Where science falls short it proposes theories, and believing in theories requires faith. As far as the big bang theory goes, there are mountains of provable data that details the age of our expanding universe, which in turn prove that at one point the universe literally existed as a mere speck of a point. What comes before that point requires some faith in the scientific community to find that answer in the future.

 

Qualified Commenter was suggesting "skeptically" that atheists are required to use more faith to believe in the big bang and the earth is 6-10,000 years old. In actuality, no faith is required to believe in the data proving the earth is billions of years old. Facts are facts. Regarding the big bang, the evidence proving the theory to be true is overwhelming, but I reserve the right to believe nothing until it is proven true. One thing is clear from an atheist's perspective, it sure is easier accepting proven facts about life on earth, rather than trying to disbelieve science to prove improveable religious ideas.

[SilentLoner]

For a long time I was honestly confused as to whether this was an insult or a compliment. I mean, to believers having faith is a good thing, right? 

[SRS]

For a long time I was honestly confused as to whether this was an insult or a compliment. I mean, to believers having faith is a good thing, right? 

My comeback is I often tell people I have faith in humanity, not religion.

[LifeCycle]

Any Christian that says this has no idea what they hell they're talking about (which shouldn't be at all surprising).

[boftx]

I think there are two basic groups that fall into the young Earth camp.

 

First, there are those who sincerely believe that man walked alongside dinosaurs, etc. That view is clearly wrong and easily debunked, even if it will never be accepted by anyone who has a mind that is capable of believing such a fairy tale.

 

The second group is more interesting. That is the group that says "God" created everything exactly as we see it only 6,000 years ago as a test of faith for Man.

 

The latter is not an unsupportable position. All it really does, though, is throw the debate back into the realm of can the Bible be believed, morality, free-will vs predestination, etc. If one bears in mind some of the cruel "tests" that "God" put to Abraham and Job, then this is not of line at all.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

Oddly enough though, these same creationists are quite happy to use computers, drive cars, use satellite telecommunications and reap all the benefits science has given them - without realizing (or even stopping to think about it for a moment) that the same science that makes all of their devices work cannot function unless the universe is 13.8 billion years old!

 

 

That's a very interesting thought. Can you give me some resources so I can look into this deeper, regarding technology we take for-granted that shows an ancient universe? I'd like to look into that more but I don't know exactly what to google.

 

 

Back again, QC!

 

First off, let me qualify what I'm going to write by saying two things.

 

Nobody can make up (or un-make) anyone's mind for them.  If the Christians you share this stuff with are determined not to accept it - they won't!  It's as simple as that.  Just as it's an act of will to believe something, it's also an act of will to deny something... even if the all facts say otherwise.  Some folks will go to their deaths stubbornly denying the facts and there's nothing we can do about that.  All we can do is present them with the facts and leave it there.  After that, it's up to them.

 

Secondly, if you look back up to the quote, I wrote...

 "...the same science that makes all of their devices work cannot function unless the universe is 13.8 billion years old!"

So, what you and I are trying to do here is to show them that the science that makes their gadgets and gizmos work is the same science that says the universe is 23,000 times older than the Bible says. 

 

Now QC, the one thing that links all of the following...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_navigation_device

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_radar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_gun

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tornado#Detection

 

...is the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect

 

If that effect didn't exist, then none of these devices would work.  When astronomers image distant galaxies they find the Doppler effect at work in the light collected by their telescopes.  This is known as the... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_shift The more distant a star or galaxy, the more it's light is shifted to a lower frequency.  That's how we know these objects are millions or billions of light years away from us.

 

Light takes one year to travel one Light-year (no kidding!), so we see Alpha Centauri... the nearest bright star, as it was 4.3 years ago, back in early 2009.  We see the Andromeda galaxy as it was 2.5 million years ago, long before Homo Sapiens turned up.  Once again, it's the red shift (Doppler effect) that tells us this stuff.

 

So QC, the very same physical principle (Doppler effect) that gives us SatNav and tornado warnings and diagnostic radiology also tells us that the universe is very, very much older than 6,000 years and billions of light years across. 

.

.

.

If your Christian friends won't accept that the same science applies everywhere and everywhen, in exactly the same way, then the only thing you can do is... give up!

At least you've tried to crack open their bubble of self-imposed ignorance.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

[SRS]

What I find completely illogical... as I suppose Spock would agree... are the hoops that a god would have to jump through to create an entire universe to look like it was billions of years old, and require humans to believe it is only 6000 years old.

 

One quick fact to prove my point. This month's National Geographic has a story about a new humanoid species known as the Denisovans. Scientists discovered the new humanoid by finding a fragment of a pinky bone of an 8 year old girl burried in a remote cave in Siberia under layers of rock dated to about 60,000 years. Naturally, the scientists used proven dating techniques and DNA testing. As an atheist I'm thinking this is awesome! But, if a person is a believer in a 6000 year old earth theory they have to wonder why god would bother to bury the bone the size of a pea under layers of rock in a romote cave in Siberia to make the DNA look like its 60,000 years old. And so it goes everyday as scientists continue to make new discoveries which prove the earth's age to be around 13.5 billion years old.

 

This makes me think of  2 Thessolonians 2:1-12 " And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth."

 

Maybe that's the answer. God has purposely planted millions of bone fragments, rearranged the earths' geography, made light from distant galaxies to look like its been coming from the depths of the universe for millions of light years, etc., etc.,  all to purposely decieve people so that they will not be saved.

[boftx]

SRS,

 

What you allude is what I called the second group in the young Earth camp. The verse that you quote is particularly apropos.

 

As for it being illogical, well, that simply is not a consideration since for an omni-everything "God" logic has no meaning outside of whatever that "God" might be. In short, I don't think a sound attack can be made on the premise that "God" did in fact create an illusion as we have referred to.

 

No, all that does is (if I might repeat myself) move the debate back into the normal realm of what we call logic and the various inconsistencies and outright contradictions presented by the descriptions and actions of "God" found in the Bible.