ChristianGuy1000 Posted July 11, 2013 Author Share Posted July 11, 2013 Funny you say that - When I first became a Christian these are the exact thoughts I had. These are almost the exact questions I had too and It was all easily glossed over. I knew a Christian who was 20 and got caught up with a 14 year old girl. A whole big problem occurred but you know what happened. It was brushed under the rug. The two peoples parents talked the guys parents paid the girls parents some money and the guy is still a youth leader. Like seriously wtf this shit happens all time in Churches. Problem is I had these questions as a Christian and no one gave me a good answer which left me to have to believe in 'Faith' which is incompatible with someone who has to program a computer every day. Its like saying to me Imagine the Software is built or have Faith that the 2 days my boss quoted will be sufficient when actually it will take 2 weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisstavrous Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Yeah but don't think to much or you might end up being real happy all by yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeCycle Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Funny you say that - When I first became a Christian these are the exact thoughts I had. These are almost the exact questions I had too and It was all easily glossed over. I knew a Christian who was 20 and got caught up with a 14 year old girl. A whole big problem occurred but you know what happened. It was brushed under the rug. The two peoples parents talked the guys parents paid the girls parents some money and the guy is still a youth leader. Like seriously wtf this shit happens all time in Churches. Problem is I had these questions as a Christian and no one gave me a good answer which left me to have to believe in 'Faith' which is incompatible with someone who has to program a computer every day. Its like saying to me Imagine the Software is built or have Faith that the 2 days my boss quoted will be sufficient when actually it will take 2 weeks. The biggest piece of evidence that Christianity is not true is the fact that Christians are no different than non-Christians. Humanity deals with the same struggles across the board. Your faith does not shield you from these things. Christians are no more richer, poorer, happier, sadder, healthier or unhealthier than non-believers. So why sacrifice your mind, your time and your money on such a thing? Where's the proof that it's really improving anything? There isn't any. Christianity is the ultimate placebo effect. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lerk Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 One thing you need to think about is the difference between the Old and New Testaments. Between the testaments, the Jews picked up a lot of religious ideas. Among those ideas were Heaven as a place of eternal reward (before, it was simply the dome over the Earth where god lived), and Hell. These ideas came from Zoroastrianism, a religion from nearby Iran, and assuming that the gospels to some extent represent what Jesus actually taught you can see that his religious ideas were a product of his culture, not the result of his having a direct line to "the Father". Jesus was nothing more than a philosopher who gained a following, whose followers over the next 30 years started making him out to have been a god. The Jews as a whole rejected him not because they didn't like his message, but because he didn't fulfill the prophecies about the messiah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SciWalker Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 The more time I spend reading post here the more I see the value of free thought, critical thinking and facts. I wish I could say the same. I wish I could say that, beyond the predictable responses about religion, you could have a serious discussion of serious issues in a broad and open-minded context. Maybe I just haven't been here long enough, but to me it seems as though a lot of the 'deprogramming' is actually nothing more than reprogramming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralet Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 The more time I spend reading post here the more I see the value of free thought, critical thinking and facts. I wish I could say the same. I wish I could say that, beyond the predictable responses about religion, you could have a serious discussion of serious issues in a broad and open-minded context. Maybe I just haven't been here long enough, but to me it seems as though a lot of the 'deprogramming' is actually nothing more than reprogramming. What makes you think that? I dont think that anyone is trying to deconvert christians. There is no need for missionary in atheisms/agnosticism. Most arguments of ex-christians are based on a open look at the bible without "christian-glasses" on and personal experience. I have no problems with people that believe in the bible god, but i dont like that christians just ignore the unpleasant parts and follow the common interpretations that are taught in churches. EDIT: After reading your other posts I should have answered in a form you can understand: Q: Why does nobody want to discuss with SciWalker? A: Because his posts are personally insulting, aggressive and arrogant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lerk Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Maybe I just haven't been here long enough, but to me it seems as though a lot of the 'deprogramming' is actually nothing more than reprogramming. You want to know why people accused you of being a troll in another thread? This sort of comment is why. It has been my experience that most people who are called trolls don't really know what they're doing. They can't understand why they get kicked off of one board after another after another. But type of comment is why. When someone responds honestly to your comment, you'll accuse them (or the whole board) again of having been simply reprogrammed. The whole thing will escalate. You may not have the social skillet required to see it, but your comment is the perfect way to bait people. Social skills are not easy to learn. I'm a nerd, I know! The question now is whether I should hit "post". Have I helped you to understand why people reject you so that you can learn how to be a part of society, or have I simply taken the bait? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lerk Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 "skillset", not "skillet" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralet Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Watch this I don't think anyone should worry too much about what Luke says, as he wasn't an eye-witness author. But you believe in the rest of the bible? What about almost everything in the OT? Who was there when god created the earth? Most authorships in the bible are just unclear. You can not dismiss a chapter because "the author wasn't there" while believe in other chapter that were written and edited by multiple (unknown) authors many years after (or before: book of revelation) the events. You can not say God told Moses about creation, God inspired the authors (and the editors) of the bible but what Luke said is just stupid. Believe the whole script or dont believe in it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SciWalker Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Watch this <..> I don't think anyone should worry too much about what Luke says, as he wasn't an eye-witness author. But you believe in the rest of the bible? What about almost everything in the OT? Who was there when god created the earth? Most authorships in the bible are just unclear. You can not dismiss a chapter because "the author wasn't there" while believe in other chapter that were written and edited by multiple (unknown) authors many years after the events. You can not say God told Moses about creation, God inspired the authors (and the editors) of the bible but what Luke said is just stupid. Believe the whole script or dont believe in it at all. I don't know what it is about contributing to online discussion forums (or is it just this one?) that seems to stir all sorts of extraordinary presumptuousness about the contributor and their views (or is it just me and my views? -- -- Oh God --- Oh God -- by putting that rhetorical question, that, doubtless I have set off a lot of other stuff in people's minds about how I am now indisputably bat-shit crazy). Is it because of all the brain-dulling flouride in the water? It happens again and again, here. I don't even want to fight against it any more, since as far as I am concerned you can take what I say or leave it; but at the risk - once more - of rising to the bait, I'll just say, here, that I never so much as suggested that I believe a word of the Bible. Having said all that, I am not interested in anyone's obsessive arguments as to why I might be - I dunno - this, that or the other - or how I indubitably believe this, that or the other. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralet Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Watch this <..> I don't think anyone should worry too much about what Luke says, as he wasn't an eye-witness author. But you believe in the rest of the bible? What about almost everything in the OT? Who was there when god created the earth? Most authorships in the bible are just unclear. You can not dismiss a chapter because "the author wasn't there" while believe in other chapter that were written and edited by multiple (unknown) authors many years after the events. You can not say God told Moses about creation, God inspired the authors (and the editors) of the bible but what Luke said is just stupid. Believe the whole script or dont believe in it at all. I don't know what it is about contributing to online discussion forums (or is it just this one?) that seems to stir all sorts of extraordinary presumptuousness about the contributor and their views (or is it just me and my views? -- -- Oh God --- Oh God -- by putting that rhetorical question, that, doubtless I have set off a lot of other stuff in people's minds about how I am now indisputably bat-shit crazy). Is it because of all the brain-dulling flouride in the water? It happens again and again, here. I don't even want to fight against it any more, since as far as I am concerned you can take what I say or leave it; but at the risk - once more - of rising to the bait, I'll just say, here, that I never so much as suggested that I believe a word of the Bible. Having said all that, I am not interested in anyone's obsessive arguments as to why I might be - I dunno - this, that or the other - or how I indubitably believe this, that or the other. Sorry. Look at MisterTwo post above. What is wrong with you? Why do you feel personally attacked? My point was that "he wasnt an eye-witness" isnt a valid argument because the whole stories in bible are missing eye-witnesses and clear authorship. I couldnt care less if you believe in the bible or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Jedah is right when he says hell is a doctrine against, not for, the belief in the bible god. ChristianGuy1000, your thinking is right on track. I have said the following a number of times on this forum, but it needs repeating for those who are new here: You spent years, I'm sure, reading the bible, going to church, reading the apologists' writings and otherwise being indoctrinated in the faith. That information is literally stored in your brain and is accessed when an issue comes up that triggers it. The more it is accessed, the more automatic it becomes for it to be accessed. It becomes one's world view, Everyday things one sees or hears or thinks about are filtered through that world view in a way that ensures a confirmation of its validity in the mind. The result is brainwashing. One becomes so convinced of the truth of the indoctrinated information, that anything contrary is rejected out of hand. How far along this continuum of indoctrination one is varies for each individual. So reading bible history, the history of christianity . arguments by atheists and agnostics, biographies of christiian church fathers and the like is very helpful in deprogramming an indoctrinated or brainwashed Xtian. It gives the brain another channel for relevant information to travel so it can be seriously reflected upon. It helps one to think clearly without being trumped by pre-programmed Xtianity. Further, you will find the reading enjoyable because you will run across a lot of material that confirms what you are already thinking. Then you'll begin the stages of deconversion, starting frequently with anger, but ending with a new sense of freedom. Good luck and have a happy journey. bill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SciWalker Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Watch this <..> I don't think anyone should worry too much about what Luke says, as he wasn't an eye-witness author. But you believe in the rest of the bible? What about almost everything in the OT? Who was there when god created the earth? Most authorships in the bible are just unclear. You can not dismiss a chapter because "the author wasn't there" while believe in other chapter that were written and edited by multiple (unknown) authors many years after the events. You can not say God told Moses about creation, God inspired the authors (and the editors) of the bible but what Luke said is just stupid. Believe the whole script or dont believe in it at all. I don't know what it is about contributing to online discussion forums (or is it just this one?) that seems to stir all sorts of extraordinary presumptuousness about the contributor and their views (or is it just me and my views? -- -- Oh God --- Oh God -- by putting that rhetorical question, that, doubtless I have set off a lot of other stuff in people's minds about how I am now indisputably bat-shit crazy). Is it because of all the brain-dulling flouride in the water? It happens again and again, here. I don't even want to fight against it any more, since as far as I am concerned you can take what I say or leave it; but at the risk - once more - of rising to the bait, I'll just say, here, that I never so much as suggested that I believe a word of the Bible. Having said all that, I am not interested in anyone's obsessive arguments as to why I might be - I dunno - this, that or the other - or how I indubitably believe this, that or the other. Sorry. Look at MisterTwo post above. What is wrong with you? Why do you feel personally attacked? I didn't. Just go back and look at your first sentence (or indeed your first three) in your reply to me, then look at my first sentence in my reply to you. (Except that, frankly, MisterTwo's reply was -- how shall I put it -- yet another one that was strangely missing the mark. See, it grates on one's nerves after a while. My point was that "he wasnt an eye-witness" isnt a valid argument because the whole stories in bible are missing eye-witnesses and clear authorship. Yes but it is *widely recognised* - at least tacitly - that Luke's account does not have quite the same level of credibility as Matthew's and Mark's. Fundamentalists might disagree, I know, but so what? I couldnt care less if you believe in the bible or not. You seemed to go of your way a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lerk Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Sorry, I shouldn't have commented. I thought the thread was going off, but I should have just brought it back instead of striking at what I thought was the problem. So, let's get back, shall we? A whole lot of the New Testament authors' ideas come from the apocrypha, which Protestants do not see in their Bibles. It's crazy that these books were thrown out, even though they were obviously intended as fiction, because that fiction was so popular that it influenced the people of the 1st century. Without the book of Enoch, there is no Satan/Devil and no Hell. I've been reading "Things I Never Learned in Sunday School" by Nan Yielding. She isn't atheist, but she does an excellent job of showing why the NT authors believed what they did about spirits and such. Without those things, all of the fear of hell is gone! The Pharisees and Sadducees didn't believe that stuff, but the common people did. Well, I say the Pharisees didn't, but Paul seems to have, and it's his version of Christianity that we wound up with. Maybe he wasn't a very good Pharisee. He certainly got caught up in all of the mysticism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisstavrous Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 The more time I spend reading post here the more I see the value of free thought, critical thinking and facts. I wish I could say the same. I wish I could say that, beyond the predictable responses about religion, you could have a serious discussion of serious issues in a broad and open-minded context. Maybe I just haven't been here long enough, but to me it seems as though a lot of the 'deprogramming' is actually nothing more than reprogramming. In the begining on ex-c I objected alot because I had alot of christian hold over beliefs and I was still judging people based on those beliefs. Once you see sin nature is a wank and that people are able to love without god you will feel better about the people at ex-c. The people here are more real than any christian forum I have ever been to, because they are trying to be themselfs and thats what you need to do. Just be yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SciWalker Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 EDIT: After reading your other posts I should have answered in a form you can understand: Q: Why does nobody want to discuss with SciWalker? A: Because his posts are personally insulting, aggressive and arrogant. In answer, I take a quote from one of your own posts: "What is wrong with you? Why do you feel personally attacked?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesG Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 I personally wonder if Paul even believed in this stuff or saw the Christian movement as a way to gain more power and simply co-opted ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralet Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 You think " I don't know what it is about contributing to online discussion forums (or is it just this one?) that seems to stir all sorts of extraordinary presumptuousness about the contributor and their views (or is it just me and my views? -- -- Oh God --- Oh God -- by putting that rhetorical question, that, doubtless I have set off a lot of other stuff in people's minds about how I am now indisputably bat-shit crazy). Is it because of all the brain-dulling flouride in the water? It happens again and again, here. I don't even want to fight against it any more, since as far as I am concerned you can take what I say or leave it; but at the risk - once more - of rising to the bait, I'll just say, here, that I never so much as suggested that I believe a word of the Bible." is a normal reaction if somebody assumes that you believe in the bible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Just be yourself. He shan't be bothered with such drivel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisstavrous Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Just be yourself. He shan't be bothered with such drivel... Just be yourself is all I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SciWalker Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 You think "...." is a normal reaction if somebody assumes that you believe in the bible? On a group like this you should expect it to be regarded as an offensive assumption and, thinking of the threads I had contributed to, it had become one too many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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