ChristianGuy1000 Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 Hi Folks I was thinking long and hard about this In the Garden of Eden God put down the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. When Adam and Eve were created they were told not to eat from the tree. Is this not a logical paradox. E.g. If they did not know what evil was then how could they have an evil intent when disobeying God. Put it this way. If you have a baby and never scold or punish him that child will grow up knowing not Good and Evil as they will never have the Parameters of each set to have a contrast. This is much the same for Adam and Eve - They ate the apple because of the snake. Lets face it - Why the hell did God let the snake tempt people who did not know - E.g. If God said dont eat the apple - If I did not know that eating it was Evil then surely they did something on the suggestion of a snake with no evil intent towards God. It seams like a Deliberate setup. Like seriously - Leave a tree right in the middle of the Garden and say Dont Eat!! Then put a snake down to tell them to eat Then condenmn them. Maybe the question should be why did God put the tree there like how stupid - For someone who knows everything hes very dumb it also looks like a setup!. Secondly we read that Satain in the book of Job goes up to heaven on a regular basis and God seams to be rather chummy what the fuck is that! God aparantly cant stand in the sight of evil yet Satain who tried to overthrow him still talks like their friends or at least acquantances. The more I read about God the more of a Sadistic Tyrant he turns out to be. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralet Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 we have a good discussion about this topic here: http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/56981-adam-gets-my-eve/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisstavrous Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 Its good to see you venting and getting your mind and feelings right. Other things we can rant about are, why did god only tell adam not to eat from the tree and not eve? Why is the snake not called satan in the story of the garden of eden? Why didn't god tell adam and eve the full story of what would happen to them and all their children (sin nature) if they ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge? Why why why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantophobia Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 This story bugged the crap out of me as a child. If God was so loving and the tree was so bad, why did He put it there in the first place? Later, it really hit me how horrible it was that "knowledge" was a sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenaissanceWoman Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 If God is omniscient AND omnipresent, why was he not there to counter the snake's tempting words? He should have known this was going on, and could have intervened. He should have already been there (omnipresent) and already known what was going on (omniscient). Even if he wasn't there, we are taught to keep our thoughts in check at all times because God knows our hearts and minds. (I'm so free from that now, hallelujah!) If God knows all our thoughts, why did he not hear what was going on in Eve's mind, and swoop in to correct her? A set-up for sure. Not omnipresent. Not omniscient. Not caring about the future damnation of the rest of humankind. But God is love, you know. (snark) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeCycle Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 It was entrapment. God knew everything, Adam and Eve did not. They were innocent and they were ignorant. It was all a setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pratt Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 it is called free will , baby,,,,,, free will,,,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristianGuy1000 Posted July 16, 2013 Author Share Posted July 16, 2013 Free will is a bit messed up. E.g. God gave them the free will to eat from the tree how is that their sin. Like why the heck was the tree there in the first place. I am reading the Richard Dawkins the God Delusion but I have so many questions. Like why is blood the only away to atone for sins. Why did Jesus need to die in the first place. Why did it take God 1000 years since the last prophet to Jesus. Why is there no visible miracles today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristianGuy1000 Posted July 16, 2013 Author Share Posted July 16, 2013 Lets take an Apologists Response Source: http://www.gotquestions.org/tree-knowledge-good-evil.html God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden to give Adam and Eve a choice to obey Him or disobey Him. Why did God give them a 'Choice' when in reality God knew they would sin? Adam and Eve were free to do anything they wanted, except eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 2:16-17, “And the LORD God commanded the man, ‘You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.’” While death (Concept) is real they did not surely die. And like others have said it was directed at Adam. If God had not given Adam and Eve the choice, they would have essentially been robots, simply doing what they were programmed to do. God created Adam and Eve to be “free” beings, able to make decisions, able to choose between good and evil. In order for Adam and Eve to truly be free, they had to have a choice. Yet again an apologist trying to make it seam like its Adam and Eve's fault - This opens a problem in Heaven where there is supposidly no evil no Christian who goes there will ever have free will?? The Apologist even makes a case that they had a choice between Good and Evil like seriously lol -- They hadent eaten from the tree yet so they did not know what Good and Evil was so how did they choose to do evil???? There was nothing essentially evil about the tree or the fruit of the tree. It is unlikely that eating the fruit truly gave Adam and Eve any further knowledge. It was the act of disobedience that opened Adam and Eve’s eyes to evil. Their sin of disobeying God brought sin and evil into the world and into their lives. Eating the fruit, as an act of disobedience against God, was what gave Adam and Eve knowledge of evil (Genesis 3:6-7). This is very interesting here - The apologist says that Adam and Eve gained nothing but the bible says their eyes were opened. Then God said that Man has become like God knowing Good and Evil! So I like the way they cherry picked part of the answer. God knew that Adam and Eve would sin and would thereby bring evil, suffering, and death into the world. Why, then, did God allow Satan to tempt Adam and Eve? Why did he put the tree there - sort of a no brain er. The Apologist says that if they had no free will they wouldn't theoretically sin - So why did he put the tree there when he knew what would happen??. God allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve to force them to make the choice. Adam and Eve chose, of their own free will, to disobey God and eat the forbidden fruit. Lovely yet again God allowing evil to fuck with Human Kind. What Loving God give Satan a standing remit to make humans fail! Story of JOB Anyone. Common God Allowed Evil? That's like saying you have a kid but u pay a bully to convince your kid to stick their hand in the fire and then blaming your kid for falling for it. The results—evil, sin, suffering, sickness, and death—have plagued the world ever since. Adam and Eve's decision results in every person being born with a sin nature, a tendency to sin Why did Jesus not SIN. If every person being born with SIN they Jesus clearly was not above this bar or did God turn a blind eye for his son? Adam and Eve's decision is what ultimately required Jesus Christ to die on the cross and shed His blood on our behalf. Through faith in Christ, we can be free from sin's consequences, and ultimately free from sin itself. May we echo the words of the Apostle Paul in Romans 7:24-25, “What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!” Funny he took nearly 2000 years after Genesis to send Jesus and even more strangely is that Elijah and Enoch went straight to heaven, So can we say they lived a blameless life. God clearly said Moses lead a blameless life which to me puts him on par of being sinless like Christ. So surely on this Idea can Moses save peoples sins considering God turned a blind eye to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 Hi Folks I was thinking long and hard about this In the Garden of Eden God put down the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. When Adam and Eve were created they were told not to eat from the tree. Is this not a logical paradox. E.g. If they did not know what evil was then how could they have an evil intent when disobeying God. Put it this way. If you have a baby and never scold or punish him that child will grow up knowing not Good and Evil as they will never have the Parameters of each set to have a contrast. This is much the same for Adam and Eve - They ate the apple because of the snake. Lets face it - Why the hell did God let the snake tempt people who did not know - E.g. If God said dont eat the apple - If I did not know that eating it was Evil then surely they did something on the suggestion of a snake with no evil intent towards God. It seams like a Deliberate setup. Like seriously - Leave a tree right in the middle of the Garden and say Dont Eat!! Then put a snake down to tell them to eat Then condenmn them. Maybe the question should be why did God put the tree there like how stupid - For someone who knows everything hes very dumb it also looks like a setup!. Secondly we read that Satain in the book of Job goes up to heaven on a regular basis and God seams to be rather chummy what the fuck is that! God aparantly cant stand in the sight of evil yet Satain who tried to overthrow him still talks like their friends or at least acquantances. The more I read about God the more of a Sadistic Tyrant he turns out to be. Add to this the claim that God is omniscient - he knew what would happen before it happened. As to Job, the lesson is "might is right". Nothing more and nothing less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lerk Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 If God is omniscient AND omnipresent, why was he not there to counter the snake's tempting words? He should have known this was going on, and could have intervened. He should have already been there (omnipresent) and already known what was going on (omniscient). Even if he wasn't there, we are taught to keep our thoughts in check at all times because God knows our hearts and minds. (I'm so free from that now, hallelujah!) If God knows all our thoughts, why did he not hear what was going on in Eve's mind, and swoop in to correct her? A set-up for sure. Not omnipresent. Not omniscient. Not caring about the future damnation of the rest of humankind. But God is love, you know. (snark) And that's the thing. In Genesis, the god was neither omniscient nor omnipresent. He was small, human sized. He didn't know what had happened until he went down to literally walk in his nice garden in the cool of the day. And it clearly says that he asked "where are you?" As Christians, we were taught that this was a rhetorical question, that he knew exactly where they were, but the text does not support this. Even in parts of Exodus, god isn't big. It's sort of a mixed bag there, but in chapter 4 he has already told Moses to go to Egypt, then suddenly he figures out that Moses hasn't circumcised his son, and it says god suddenly meets Moses at the lodging place and is planning to kill him. Moses wife jumps into action and circumcises the kid, and god goes away. Sure sounds there like god doesn't know everything all of the time, and like he's about the size of a man. Omniscient and omnipresent were attributes given to him later as the religion evolved. The compiler of the stories was too honest, really, in that he did not edit them to make them fit the current view of god; he simply included all of the stories he had available as-is, which is very helpful today because we can see that the theology changed over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 Adam and Eve were free to do anything they wanted, except eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 2:16-17, “And the LORD God commanded the man, ‘You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.’” While death (Concept) is real they did not surely die. And like others have said it was directed at Adam. "Technically they did die eventually, just not right away, but they did still die." This is a common apologetic response to what you have just said and I have gotten that before. Regardless, it's still a really difficult discovery to know that the god you believe in (or once believed in) set you, and all other humans, up for failure in the Bible by not letting Adam or Eve see the fine print in their forbidden tree agreement. It's funny that I did not notice before that only Adam was told not to eat from the tree, though I think Eve did find out eventually that eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not allowed. Also, what you said about Satan and Yahweh chatting regularly, based on what I have seen from the Bible, I see the two as competitors, both equally evil and corrupt. If they are both real, then everything that happens on Earth, Heaven, Hell, salvation, and damnation, they are all a part of some cosmic game of Chess between the two and we humans are nothing but pieces being pushed around. I don't know if this would interest you, but it's a comical representation of how Bible god likely needed Adam and Eve to fail, explaining why he did in the Bible: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 16, 2013 Super Moderator Share Posted July 16, 2013 I'm shocked to hear the Bible doesn't make sense! Perhaps that's why the more than 30,000 sects of the religion can't agree on what the damn book is trying to tell us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 I'm shocked to hear the Bible doesn't make sense! Perhaps that's why the more than 30,000 sects of the religion can't agree on what the damn book is trying to tell us. I'd say that the contradictions and nonsense in the Bible probably only account for 70% of those sects. The rest probably exist because they cherry-picked different parts that they liked or could use to easily convert people, while rejecting the stuff that they did not like or did not think they could use to convert people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted July 16, 2013 Moderator Share Posted July 16, 2013 I always knew that when I faced the book of genesis straight on, the whole entire 'empire' of the bible came tumbling down for me. I need not question any further because the whole entire 'holy' book is taken and based from this first stupid story!! THIS video is one of the best video's I've ever seen and I've watched a lot!! Excellent! Tooooooo friggin' funny when everyone was having sex!! That perverted cartoon almost turned me on..... Totally worth watching!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted July 16, 2013 Moderator Share Posted July 16, 2013 We'll be here for you when your house of cards falls, ex-ChristianGuy1000. Most of use have gone through the same process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristianGuy1000 Posted July 16, 2013 Author Share Posted July 16, 2013 Hey, Thanks - I spoke to my Brother In-Law because he always was semi-Athiest. So when I told him I am de-converting he went its about time. So he is agreeing to help me in my path to rid myself of religion fully. One of the first acts though is I just emailed my old pastor there and gave out about how my - de-conversion is ulimately his fault. Ya see when I was worried about the Unforgivable Sin I asked for his advice and he was like 'Dont be silly - if you need to talk about it Im free in 2 weeks for an hour' I never went back to the church since. So I thought I would email my pastor telling him why I'm not comming back and how if he had of tended to his sheep instead of leaving me to the wolves I would still be in-doctornated in the church. I also said its probably because I didnt pay enough in to be considered important so when I vanished the bank balance didnt register it. Thanks everyone for being there for me - Oddly enough its ex christians out of everyone seam to have their heads screwed on because we all know the falacys of the bible. Athiests generally havent a clue - I have noticed depending on how you look at the bible there are two points of view. If you read it with Blind Faith then the reason God is an evil person is because your taught that its not possible and we are not to know the ways of God. Yet when you read it with some common sense God is quite spiteful. Maybe there is a God there it will take a while for me to find the path I feel right with but for now Christianity is something I need to get out of my system so sorry people If I vent it here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 Vent anytime you need to. That's why we're here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lerk Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 Maybe there is a God there it will take a while for me to find the path I feel right with but for now Christianity is something I need to get out of my system so sorry people If I vent it here. Vent all you want! As far as "maybe there is a god", well, maybe, but there's no book that tells about any real god or gods. If there are gods, they haven't bothered to let us know, so people just speculate about it. They speculate to the point that they imagine the god they speculate about is real, and they start worshiping it/them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 Adam and Eve were free to do anything they wanted, except eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 2:16-17, “And the LORD God commanded the man, ‘You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.’” While death (Concept) is real they did not surely die. And like others have said it was directed at Adam. "Technically they did die eventually, just not right away, but they did still die." If you eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you will surely die.....a thousand years later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernweh Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 As you are busy digesting the Red Pill may I suggest this most excellent RationalWiki article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 Lets take an Apologists Response Source: http://www.gotquestions.org/tree-knowledge-good-evil.html God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden to give Adam and Eve a choice to obey Him or disobey Him. Why did God give them a 'Choice' when in reality God knew they would sin? "Adam and Eve, I give you an option to royally piss me off. Aren't I a nice guy? And right now you have no idea what I'm talking about because I have deprived you of that knowledge." - Love, God. ----------------------- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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