I Broke Free Posted May 2, 2005 Share Posted May 2, 2005 Below is some text written by James Dobson. Apparently he is now a genetic scientist. On the other hand, I am certain that homosexuality does not result from irresistible genetic influences, as some would have us believe. First, if it were specifically a genetic trait, then all identical twins would either have it or not have it. Their genes are exact duplicates, so anything deriving specifically from their DNA would express itself identically in the two individuals. Such is not the case. There are thousands of identical twins with whom one is gay and the other is straight. http://family.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/family....hp?p_faqid=1217 Below shows why his claims are total crap! Type One Diabetes Type one is when pancreas islet cells dies. The islet cells make insulin. Type one diabetes is also called "insulin- dependent" because you have to get insulin from a source outside the body. Out of all of the cases of diabetes, only 5-10 % are Type one which amounts to 1 million Americans (Beaser 18). There are three main factors which contribute to "coming down" with this disease. They are heredity, environment, and auto-immunity. The heredity of diabetes is simple; the genes that deal with diabetes are passed from parent to child. Diabetes is a recessive trait disease, which means that both parents have to pass the gene on. Diabetics have a prevalence of two genes, called DR3 and DR4. Only 3% of non-diabetics have the DR3/DR4 combination as shown in research. Heredity and genetics is never cut-and-dry. Research shows this in studies of twins. Twins, having the same genes, have only a 50% likelihood of both children developing the disease (Chase p12). http://www.unm.edu/~abqteach/multi_disc/01-05-10.htm The statistics I have read show that when one identical twin is homosexual, the other twin has about a 50% chance of being homosexual also. The same percentage we see in Type One Diabetes. Dobson is such an asshole. If Dobson was right with his statement, then both twins would have to have diabetes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted May 2, 2005 Share Posted May 2, 2005 Clearly, Dobson knows less about genetics than he does about psychology. If a trait occurs in identical twins at a greater rate than in the general population, then that trait must be controlled, at least partially, by genetics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celsus Posted May 2, 2005 Share Posted May 2, 2005 It is the old choice versus biology argument. I can safely say there was never a time when I made a choice to be heterosexual and I can safely presume that there was never a time when a homosexual decided to be what they are either. Some of us are just hetero or homo, short or tall, black or white, blue eyed or brown eyed. Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Broke Free Posted May 2, 2005 Author Share Posted May 2, 2005 As a gay man with straight identical twin brother, this debate has always fascinated me. Dobson seems to think like many “NON-geneticists” that identical twins are perfect copies of each other. I wonder how Dobson can explain why I have psoriasis and my twin does not; why what moles we have are in different places. His name on the website is listed as “Dr.” Does anyone here know if he really earned that degree, and if so, in what field of study? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanInPA Posted May 2, 2005 Share Posted May 2, 2005 Silly IBF. Obviously, you chose to have psoriasis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Broke Free Posted May 2, 2005 Author Share Posted May 2, 2005 Silly IBF. Obviously, you chose to have psoriasis Ah, yes.. I remember it like it was yesterday. There I was 23 years old and thinking to myself, “Yes! I want a chronic disease that will disfigure me and last my whole life.” Some choices are so easy to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted May 2, 2005 Share Posted May 2, 2005 Ah, yes.. I remember it like it was yesterday. There I was 23 years old and thinking to myself, “Yes! I want a chronic disease that will disfigure me and last my whole life.” Some choices are so easy to make. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You did that too? I thought it was just me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueGiant Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 His degree is in child development from U. Southern California 1967. Bio His training, however, gives him next to no authority on genetics, though he probably does know his psycology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlinfmct87 Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 If it was gonetic, wouldn't that trait have died out already, consitering the fact that gay people can't reproduce? In other words, how the hell is this trait being passed on? Merlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lalli Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 If it was gonetic, wouldn't that trait have died out already, consitering the fact that gay people can't reproduce?<{POST_SNAPBACK}> (1) As we've seen from studies of identical twins, having the "gay gene" doesn't automatically lead to being gay; environmental factors are also important as well. So for example, while IBF is gay, his identical twin brother isn't, but has the same genes and will pass them on to his children. (2) Gay people can reproduce quite well, especially if they live in a society that is violently homophobic, thus pressuring them to quietly settle down with a "normal" wife and "normal" family and keep their "dirty secret" to themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlinfmct87 Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 (1) As we've seen from studies of identical twins, having the "gay gene" doesn't automatically lead to being gay; environmental factors are also important as well. So for example, while IBF is gay, his identical twin brother isn't, but has the same genes and will pass them on to his children. (2) Gay people can reproduce quite well, especially if they live in a society that is violently homophobic, thus pressuring them to quietly settle down with a "normal" wife and "normal" family and keep their "dirty secret" to themselves. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Probably should have been more specific and said "Gay Couples" but I see your point. It's nonsense in any case... Melin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSpooky Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 If it's a recessive gene, it can persist in a population's gene pool for an indefinite amount of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitchu Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Imo, all these genetic "findings" are happening too fast and too furiously, with far too much impact in far too many totally un-allied areas of human behavior. I anticipate that we'll go down this track for long enough to cause irremediable pain and suffering until (like margarine instead of butter) genes are determined to be of little or no use in addressing the common misconceptions humans have about one another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 I don't understand why the "choice" thing is such a big issue. Is being gay somehow justified if it's biological? (implying that it isn't justified if it's simply a choice?) See, I read once about some twin studies that showed that among male identical twins, if one was gay, then there was a 50% chance that the other one would be, too. Those are pretty convincing statistics. HOWEVER, among female identical twins, there was no correlation at all... which suggests that 'gayness' has a genetic component among males, but not neccesarily among females. So, if a genetic predisposition is somehow required to justify homosexuality... then does that mean it's ok to be gay, but not ok to be lesbian? heh... The way I figure, gay people aren't hurting anything or anybody by being gay... so what do I care? Why should it matter whether or not it's a choice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitchu Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 The point was that there is something inherently bisexual about women. I dont' know if that's a proper conclusion to make or not...but it does seem to indicate that sexuality in a woman might be a bit more fluid, and more fixed in a male. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> In Western society, "boys will be boys" hasn't been just an excuse for rambunctious behavior or sowing wild oats -- it's also been a definitional demand that certain behaviors, and only those, may constitute maleness. Sexual fluidity is traditionally harshly discouraged in males; whereas females, being more 'emotional' and all, are given latitude of expression which isn't allowed for our male population. To me, this explains the above point more reasonably than any argument for genetic disposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlinfmct87 Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 lalli answers this better than I ever could...but homosexuality can in part be an evolutionary protection against overpopulation. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I hadn't consitered that.... Merlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Java Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 I hadn't consitered that.... Merlin <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Homosexuality can also be passed by parallel lines. You have two parents with the "gay" allele, and since I'm already oversimplifying let's say it's recessive. They have four kids. One has no gay allele, two have one but are straight/bi, and one is a happy gay guy! And also, in a family-based society, the gay guy will probably not reproduce but will help with his sibling's children, giving them an advantage in nature. That's how "teh gay" is supported. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Broke Free Posted May 20, 2005 Author Share Posted May 20, 2005 Homosexuality can also be passed by parallel lines. You have two parents with the "gay" allele, and since I'm already oversimplifying let's say it's recessive. They have four kids. One has no gay allele, two have one but are straight/bi, and one is a happy gay guy! And also, in a family-based society, the gay guy will probably not reproduce but will help with his sibling's children, giving them an advantage in nature. That's how "teh gay" is supported. Java Thank you for your posts. You have brought up some perspectives on the subject that I have never considered. Until the twentieth century, Type One Diabetes was pretty much a death sentence for children. I doubt many would have been able to pass on their defective (recessive) genes, yet the disease continued. I think that would be a good example to show people who scream that there cannot be genetic component to homosexuality. Both Type One Diabetes and Homosexuality make offspring unlikely, yet the recessive gene carries on unabated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Java Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 Java Thank you for your posts. You have brought up some perspectives on the subject that I have never considered. Until the twentieth century, Type One Diabetes was pretty much a death sentence for children. I doubt many would have been able to pass on their defective (recessive) genes, yet the disease continued. I think that would be a good example to show people who scream that there cannot be genetic component to homosexuality. Both Type One Diabetes and Homosexuality make offspring unlikely, yet the recessive gene carries on unabated. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You're right, Type One Diabetes is an excellent example. Almost any recessive genetic mutation which either causes sterility or death in childhood is proof homosexuality can be genetic. I just remembered that part from Speaker For The Dead (i wub ender). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Broke Free Posted May 20, 2005 Author Share Posted May 20, 2005 I just remembered that part from Speaker For The Dead (i wub ender). I knew I liked you. I must of have read "Ender's Game" and Speaker For The Dead" at least five times. I just turned around to look on my bookshelf. Yep! Still there. It's been a few years. It's time to read them again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 I've heard it suggested that any genes that cause men to be 'gay' could simply be genes that promote attraction to men. If such a gene is inhereted by a female, then she's considered 'normal' and possibly has an extra attraction to men. This way there's no biological reason that the gene would be eliminated... hell, if females carrying the "gay male gene" were a bit more attracted to males than females not carrying the gene, it could even increase her chances of reproduction. I imagine that a 'lesbian gene' could work similarly. I think my aunt is a closet lesbian... I could be carrying a gay gene... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ro-bear Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 If it was gonetic, wouldn't that trait have died out already, consitering the fact that gay people can't reproduce? In other words, how the hell is this trait being passed on? Merlin <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How is Down's syndrome passed on? Very few of these folks reproduce, and it's not a trait that contributes to society as far as I can tell. Still, they keep popping out at a relatively constant rate. Don't get me wrong; the Down's kids are real sweetie-pies and I love them, but they don't solve existential problems. Some genetic anomalies persist in spite of their apparent non-contributory status. Perhaps they are related in some way to more adaptive mutations or genetic tendencies. I'm convinced that homosexuality is mostly genetic-based. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 I recently saw an article about research showing that a gay guy would react to scent from flowers, male and female pheromones the same was as a woman. And this reaction occurs in the brain, without control of the test subject. (The subjects where straight men, gay men and straight women) My task will now be to find the article... [Edit] ... Got it http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/05/09/pheromones.study.reut/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
necrosmith Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 I've heard that report, or the gist of it. Yet more evidence coming out that homosexuality is, in fact genetic. I am confident that, yet again, science will prove Christianity to be on the wrong side of history (I know, I know...like that's never happened before...) In any event...so what? Why does it need to be proven at all? What two consenting adults to with each other and how they decide to live their lives and how they decide to be happy is their own damn business. I am so sick of people in other people's bedrooms. When, oh when, can we put this to rest? Jesus, fuck whoever makes you happy. Christ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 I think my aunt is a closet lesbian... I could be carrying a gay gene... From what I've read, the genetic correlations of male and female homosexuality indicate that they are controlled by different regions of the genome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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