Religious Pstd

[Kris]

Do any of you think it is possible to have religious PSTD? I have noticed that many people on this site are not easily influenced by religious stories or events, while others like me have a really hard time dismissing them--- even though in my case, I really want to.

 

I have a couple of other threads running in which I discuss people who say they saw angels. I have never seen an angel, probably will never see an angel, and don't know anyone who has-- yet these stories got me all freaked out because they appeared to deal with the supernatural. I saw a few videos on YouTube purporting angels but at least one I saw just looked like a little ball of fire rolling across a freeway--I didn't really look too much more because I think videos can be easily faked. But the point is, people post all over the net about religious things that I can't always easily explain away.

 

The same goes for prophecy stories, archeological finds, NDE's etc. why is it so easy for some of you to just keep going in with your life-- not having your "lack of faith" shaken while people like be struggle? I know there are others like me, I have seen some of the posts and I understand the psychic pain that they are in. I also see the words of encouragement that many of you provide-- but I wonder what it is about us that makes things so hard for some of us?

 

I have studied evolution and space and believe the earth is old-- I have read countless books on the inaccuracies of the bible, I have lived through numerous end of the world predictions--- but let me see something religious-based on the Internet or even in the news and all logic goes out the window. I used to be such a logical person-- now I seem like a mass of jello when it comes to the topic of religion-- why?

[ExCBooster]

Maybe it would help to take a deep breath, and a big step back, and take a hard look at culture.

We often don't notice it, because we live so intimately with it, like fish do in water. You seem to have done a lot of research into science, and that does help, but it also pays to realize that it's not a choice between "Angel or faked video" but rather "Angel or anything else" - setting aside entirely whether the video was fake, would people be interpreting it as an angel at all if they had a different cultural background? No, actually. They might think it's fox-fire, from supernatural foxes. UFO? Ball Lightning? Ghosts? My point is, even if you think it's NOT fake, it's still a huge leap to get to "angel" from a ball of fire crossing the road. People only call it an angel, because that's what their cultural frame of reference restricts it to. Certainly not proof.

 

As for the NDEs, I never did see how these could be taken as any sort of proof of a Christian afterlife - even if you take them as proof of some kind of afterlife. The ones that do, like Heaven is For Real, for example, rely heavily on cherry-picking to make their case. In a heavily Christian culture, of course the book about a Christian child with Christian parents having an experience that confirms these beliefs will get published. It's pretty much guaranteed to make money. Let alone entirely whether said small child was asked highly leading questions, and the whole thing is a confection of wishful thinking at best, and outright fraud at worst. A book about a Chinese child having an NDE where she ends up at the reception office of the afterlife and is told by the otherworldly registrar that there's been an accounting error so she'll have to go back... not so much. (Yes, these sorts of NDEs do happen, they just don't get the book deals.)

 

This doesn't have much to do with a Christian God. Or this one. Or this one... you get the idea. If you're willing to accept personal experiences as evidence of something, why only accept the Christian ones, or their interpretation?

 

This site contains an archive of NDE accounts. Sure, there's a lot that mention God, but it's in English, so there's some selection bias, already. Note also how many of the ones that DO mention Jesus, or a Christian style God also contain the phrase "I recognized it as God" "interpreted it as God" or "knew it had to be God" Even when God is mentioned, there's a good chance something ELSE entirely is going on here, and heavily subject to personal interpretation through the filter of culture. Then there's a lot that don't mention God at all - for quite a few, the NDE actually turned them away from Christianity. Despite everything, there's an awful lot of variety. Definitely worth a read.

 

Long story short, don't wait for the information to come to you, go chase it down. Read up on other cultures and religions, and your own culture. The truth is, it IS difficult, swimming against the current of culture, but it does help to know that it's there. This may not be the answer to your problem, but it just might help you get some distance on it.

American culture check-list.

[Kris]

Thanks ExCBooster for your response-- I appreciate the links you provided on NDEs.. I actually have been trying to collect alternative stories from the usual Christian ones-- just so I can mentally refer back to them when I get frightened over them.

 

I also liked what you had to say about angels. It does make sense that a religious person would see something one way while a scientist might see the same thing in an entirely different prism. I never really thought of that so I will file that away as well.

 

If you get a chance, please check out my post on the Six Day War angels abs some stupid Internet stuff I came across on that-- I would love to hear your thoughts on that! Kolaida has been absolutely wonderful in giving me some things to think about on this topic--- but it was the latest thing that set me off.

 

As I said, I seem to do really well for a short time-- enjoying my studies related to science and embracing the fact that I don't believe in god ( or at he very least the bible-god) because I embrace reason-- but then when something odd (and religious-based) comes along--- a story about Israel, an archeological discovery that supports some sort of historical aspect of the bible, etc. I get all freaked out. My current issue with angels and the stupid reports of them affects me (along with NDEs, devil possessions, and prophecies) because they have that weird supernatural aspect to them-- that I actively discount in the bible.

 

Again, all I have ever wanted in my life is peace. I didn't have peace when I was religious-- in fact, I found that I really despised religion because it scared me. I renounced religion but the tentacles of the fear I had still have a grip on me. I don't understand why for some it is so easy for some and so hard for others.

[Margee]

Kris hon, Would you say that the bottom line to the whole issue of all your investigating is the fear of going to hell? Besides hell, what else would cause these terrible fears? What else would cause you this much grief with the topic of Religion? If it is the fear of hell, then you may be able to conquer that with some help of EX-c? Just wondering how we can help to narrow this down for you.......

 

*Hug*

[Kris]

Margee-- I suppose that could be the issue--- but I have resigned myself to the thought that if I am wrong about religion (in that I believe it to be crap) that I am hell-bound. I guess I just thought that if I accepted my athiestic leanings (that I have had for many years, even prior to my deconverting), things would be easy. But, they are not. For me, it takes a lot of faith to be an atheist because we are constantly being bombarded with religious crap from the majority of the world that believes in a higher power!! And that is rough for me-- because I really do think I have a form of PSTD related to religion. I want to just be able to wave my hand and discount religious stories, but I find myself having to look into thrm, which then puts a bunch of religious stuff in my head that takes me days to work through. I want to be like Flordah and others on this site who so easily cry "bullshit" when things like this cone up and then go on with their lives. The question is-- how do I do that?!?!

[Margee]

Margee-- I suppose that could be the issue--- but I have resigned myself to the thought that if I am wrong about religion (in that I believe it to be crap) that I am hell-bound. I guess I just thought that if I accepted my athiestic leanings (that I have had for many years, even prior to my deconverting), things would be easy. But, they are not. For me, it takes a lot of faith to be an atheist because we are constantly being bombarded with religious crap from the majority of the world that believes in a higher power!! And that is rough for me-- because I really do think I have a form of PSTD related to religion. I want to just be able to wave my hand and discount religious stories, but I find myself having to look into thrm, which then puts a bunch of religious stuff in my head that takes me days to work through. I want to be like Flordah and others on this site who so easily cry "bullshit" when things like this cone up and then go on with their lives. The question is-- how do I do that?!?!

 

It fascinates me how some people can just 'get over it'. I don't let go easily either Kris. It always takes me a long time to 'let go'. I have memories as a child that are just as vivid as when I was 9 years old. I have had to learn how to just accept a lot of things and none of my journey has been easy. I force myself to walk into my fears everyday - if I didn't I would become a total agoraphobic and even then...if I locked myself in....I would worry that a plane was going to crash into the house!!!!!! Fuck!!

 

I posted this a very long time ago Kris. See if anything in this can help you. It helped me a lot....

 

....another hug for you!!

 

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-deprogram.html

[Kris]

Thanks for that link Margee--- I programmed it in my phone and am going to read it each morning to help me!

[ExCBooster]

Margee-- I suppose that could be the issue--- but I have resigned myself to the thought that if I am wrong about religion (in that I believe it to be crap) that I am hell-bound. I guess I just thought that if I accepted my athiestic leanings (that I have had for many years, even prior to my deconverting), things would be easy. But, they are not. For me, it takes a lot of faith to be an atheist because we are constantly being bombarded with religious crap from the majority of the world that believes in a higher power!! And that is rough for me-- because I really do think I have a form of PSTD related to religion. I want to just be able to wave my hand and discount religious stories, but I find myself having to look into thrm, which then puts a bunch of religious stuff in my head that takes me days to work through. I want to be like Flordah and others on this site who so easily cry "bullshit" when things like this cone up and then go on with their lives. The question is-- how do I do that?!?!

Aw, Kris, you'll be okay in the end. I love the saying "fall down seven times, get up eight" - having trouble is never a failure. You've already learned the most important thing, which is to pick yourself up again. Here's another secret: it's not courage, if you have no fear. There's a big difference between fearlessness, and actual courage. Courage is being afraid, and going forward anyway. But, like I said, research. The only reason some people on this board can "cry bullshit" so easily is that they have tons of counter-examples, and well-thought through arguments in their favour. A standpoint like "I am an Atheist" is like a machine. You need fuel if you're going to get anywhere with it. Here are some counter-examples, so that you can add some more fuel to what you know. You're transitioning from one way to "run" your mind to another. All your life, the "faith" machine in your head has been maintained, and fuelled, and even if you get another model, even one that you think suits you better, you need to fuel it up. Here's some information, that might help where you've been running on empty:

 

The idea that it's a choice between "I'm right about this" and Christianity is a false dilemma. It's the one in your head, but there's 7 Billion other people out there. The Pascal's wager that you're going to Hell if you're not right... isn't statistically true at all. Look at this pie chart. No "majority of the world" believes in the SAME "higher power." Really, it's the majority of people in your part of the world that seem to. Statistically, assuming Pascal's wager holds any kind of water, what you should really be worried about is being reincarnated as something unpleasant, since Buddhists and Hindus combined - who believe in the SAME end-of-life options - vastly outnumber anyone else without mutually exclusive heavens or hells.

 

What to do about this? Find out WHY people believe the things they do, from a sociological perspective. Read some religious literature from a completely different culture. Look into history. Learn about cognitive biases, and logical fallacies. Research is your friend, and every little fact you get is a step out of fear.

 

*hugs* for you today. You can always ask us for more help. We're here to support people, after all.

[RipVanWinkle]

Kris : For several years after I deconverted  I had the same kind of doubts that you describe. If fact, it was sort of a panicky feeling- like I was making the biggest mistake of my life; like I was turning my back on god.That's exactly why the Xtian apologists claim that it is the devil tempting you to turn away from god. It doesn't have to be true as long as you believe it's true. Those thought's are deliberately planted in your brain by unscrupulous christians to scare you away from thinking. Using your brain is the last thing they want you to do.

 

But what kind of god would want his "flock" to be afraid of thinking? Why would his "kingdom" be structured in such a way that thinkers are risking eternal damnation for really trying to understand god so that they could worship him better? Instead, why would he not make it easier for both the 'wise" and unwise to have actual knowledge of God's existence and his plan for salvation? Why would he penalize the wise by giving them a brain capable of thinking deeply? Why should all types of people not have  equal opportunities to meet god's plan for salvation? Why should anybody have a disadvantage if Jesus really was sacrificed for "all of mankind"? Otherwise, god's plan is nothing more than a stacked deck.

 

Keep on keeping on. I believe that your deconversion has merely not yet had time to mature. It needs time and continued study to offset the years of indoctrination you have undergone. Keep coming back so your thinking can be neutralized and free.  bill

[Kris]

Bill-- will you take a look a another thread I wrote right before this--- it is in the Rants forum and is on the six day war-- which started my latest panic.

 

I totally get what you are saying about not wanting to worship a god who doesn't let you question things. I actually despise the Christian representation of god and even did so before I deconverted. I found him to be more evil than the devil for the most part. But if you get a chance to look at the other thread, you will see why my anxiety level went off the charts-- stories of miraculous events (particularly in Israel) tended to tweak me because of all the years of Christian conditioning. I keep telling myself-- just continue to not believe- but some things are harder for me to dismiss than others. I get caught up in the obsessive little details of things-- and on Internet sites I should stay away from. Anyway, thanks for your kind words. I really appreciate this site and the good people on it!