Comments please Christians and Non's

[Matt]

Hey, my names Matt I became a christian last year out of fear, since then all ive done is research. Why you say? because I am scared for the people of the earth and wouldnt want any of them to go to the traditional view of hell that scared me in to being a christian. Anywhoo enough about me. Ive been reading Lost books or (unadded) books from the bible. As you probably know The bible was put together by prefesssing wise men who were not the same religion as that of a traditional christian.

 

From the verses below is my interpretation. It is an extract from a book called 'The apocoypse of Peter'

http://reluctant-messenger.com/apocalypse-of-peter.htm

 

Peter had seen the horrors of people fates and was very shook up. He wept and wept for them..which is what i have been doing an im sure some of you have, but he also prayed for them and their salvation which is what im sure most christians pray for. So already chrsitians can relate to this and his pain at seeing what will happen to many of the people of the earth. We then read on and see that Christ come to him with an answer maybe even to compfort him. It would seem that the christians (belivers) (those considered reightious) will pray and their prayers will be answered. The prayers of them will save many if not all of man. It is also because of them that have believed in me, that, at their word, I shall have pity on men.' We must remember that Christ asks peter to keep this private in case they sin even more. This is logical as if people knew they would be saved, they wouldnt even try to act accordingly and our whole values system would be messed up.

 

' The Father hath committed all judgement unto the Son.' The destiny of sinners -their eternal doom- is more than Peter can endure: he appeals to Christ to have pity on them.

 

And my Lord answered me and said to me: 'Hast thou understood that which I said unto thee before? It is permitted unto thee to know that concerning which thou askest: but thou must not tell that which thou hearest unto the sinners lest they transgress the more, and sin.' Peter weeps many hours, and is at last consoled by an answer which, though exceedingly diffuse and vague does seem to promise ultimate pardon for all: 'My Father will give unto them all the life, the glory, and the kingdom that passeth not away,' . . . 'It is because of them that have believed in me that I am come. It is also because of them that have believed in me, that, at their word, I shall have pity on men.' The doctrine that sinners will be saved at last by the prayers of the righteous is, rather obscurely, enunciated in the Second Book of the Sibylline Oracles (a paraphrase, in this part, of the Apocalypse), and in the (Coptic) Apocalypse of Elias (see post).

 

 

Ultimately Peter orders Clement to hide this revelation in a box, that foolish men may not see it. The passage in the Second Book of the Sibylline Oracles which seems to point to the ultimate salvation of all sinners will be found in the last lines of the translation given below.

 

The passage in the Coptic Apocalypse of Elias is guarded and obscure in expression, but significant. It begins with a sentence which has a parallel in Peter.

 

The righteous will behold the sinners in their punishment, and those who have persecuted them and delivered them up. Then will the sinners on their part behold the place of the righteous and be partakers of grace. In that day will that for which the (righteous) shall often pray, be granted to them.

 

That is, as I take it, the salvation of sinners will be granted at the prayer of the righteous.

 

Compare also the Epistle of the Apostles, 40: 'the righteous are sorry for the sinners, and pray for them.... And I will hearken unto the prayer of the righteous which they make for them.'

 

Please any comments

[Ouroboros]

Why are you scared of hell, when it doesn't exist?

 

Why aren't you scared of the boogie man, he can come and poke out your eyes and eat them, and then chop of your arms and use them as baseball bats. I mean, why being scared of something you don't know if it exist?

 

If it exists, where is it? Show it to me, take me there, and let me smell the sulphur. Being scared of imaginary things doesn't make those things true.

[qadeshet]

The doctrine of Hell is one of the main reasons I left Xianity. Any god who would sentence even one of his children to eternal punishment isn't worthy of our worship. A robber who points a gun at you and says "your money or your life" isn't offering you a real choice. The Church's threat of Hell is no different. I spit on such a cruel and vengeful god.

[Onyx]

Hey, my names Matt I became a christian last year out of fear, since then all ive done is research. Why you say? because I am scared for the people of the earth and wouldnt want any of them to go to the traditional view of hell that scared me in to being a christian. Anywhoo enough about me. Ive been reading Lost books or (unadded) books from the bible. As you probably know The bible was put together by prefesssing wise men who were not the same religion as that of a traditional christian.

 

Hello, Matt, I'm SillyGeezer10, I'm 16 and an atheist.

Well, Hell is just a invention of man by cruel men, to keep the masses in their control, fear, not to doubt them and money.

Three thousands years ago, there was a tribe of men who happened to think God created everything and there was no science to explain what, why, when and wheres of the world. The bible was to help them to come to terms with the unknown.

Then "Jesus" came and warned of a impending "doom" ( I think the carindals changed the text of the Bible to include hell, in the middle ages, but I could be wrong.) and that changed everything. God was just gentler and with a far larger bite than the OT God, whereas in the OT, God was mean, killing and moraless but only threatened death. Whereas NT God and Jesus (Jesus really wasn't in the OT) threatened a terrible eternal hell to many great people.

 

In my opinion, hell is evil and a soul sucking invention.

Bible is a words of a demon and I refuse to follow it.

 

 

From the verses below is my interpretation. It is an extract from a book called 'The apocoypse of Peter'

http://reluctant-messenger.com/apocalypse-of-peter.htm

 

Peter had seen the horrors of people fates and was very shook up. He wept and wept for them..which is what i have been doing an im sure some of you have, but he also prayed for them and their salvation which is what im sure most christians pray for. So already chrsitians can relate to this and his pain at seeing what will happen to many of the people of the earth. We then read on and see that Christ come to him with an answer maybe even to compfort him. It would seem that the christians (belivers) (those considered reightious) will pray and their prayers will be answered. The prayers of them will save many if not all of man. It is also because of them that have believed in me, that, at their word, I shall have pity on men.' We must remember that Christ asks peter to keep this private in case they sin even more. This is logical as if people knew they would be saved, they wouldnt even try to act accordingly and our whole values system would be messed up.

 

In my opinion, God and Jesus was insincere, sadistic and elitist in the Hidden Books of the Bible as well as the canonical Bible.

If a god was good, then it must be kind, giving salvation to everybody no matter what.

Bible God fails that in both the hidden books and the canonical Bible.

They are hiding the means to salvation from the masses in that book till the last moment. How sadistic is that?

 

' The Father hath committed all judgement unto the Son.' The destiny of sinners -their eternal doom- is more than Peter can endure: he appeals to Christ to have pity on them.

 

Any sane man would do that and moreover, condemn the god who judgeth everyone.

 

And my Lord answered me and said to me: 'Hast thou understood that which I said unto thee before? It is permitted unto thee to know that concerning which thou askest: but thou must not tell that which thou hearest unto the sinners lest they transgress the more, and sin.' Peter weeps many hours, and is at last consoled by an answer which, though exceedingly diffuse and vague does seem to promise ultimate pardon for all: 'My Father will give unto them all the life, the glory, and the kingdom that passeth not away,' . . . 'It is because of them that have believed in me that I am come. It is also because of them that have believed in me, that, at their word, I shall have pity on men.' The doctrine that sinners will be saved at last by the prayers of the righteous is, rather obscurely, enunciated in the Second Book of the Sibylline Oracles (a paraphrase, in this part, of the Apocalypse), and in the (Coptic) Apocalypse of Elias (see post).

 

That would be true religious gibberish at its best. If they knew that, they would gladly do no more and get happier.

I think this is garbage.

 

That only serves to make the God of the Bible and the Hidden books look more of a jerk.

 

Ultimately Peter orders Clement to hide this revelation in a box, that foolish men may not see it. The passage in the Second Book of the Sibylline Oracles which seems to point to the ultimate salvation of all sinners will be found in the last lines of the translation given below.

 

The passage in the Coptic Apocalypse of Elias is guarded and obscure in expression, but significant. It begins with a sentence which has a parallel in Peter.

 

The righteous will behold the sinners in their punishment, and those who have persecuted them and delivered them up. Then will the sinners on their part behold the place of the righteous and be partakers of grace. In that day will that for which the (righteous) shall often pray, be granted to them.

 

That is, as I take it, the salvation of sinners will be granted at the prayer of the righteous.

 

Compare also the Epistle of the Apostles, 40: 'the righteous are sorry for the sinners, and pray for them.... And I will hearken unto the prayer of the righteous which they make for them.'

 

Interesting but BS to me. If God truly wants Humanity back to him, he should make them good at the beginning, no tears, no cross and no sin needed.

 

So, there you go.

 

Welcome to EXC!

 

Please any comments

[Dianka]

Empty concern

[Bongo]

If no one goes to hell, and if I, as an unbeliever, wakes up in a jesus-christ heaven anyway, then I will bend my knee and be thankful.

 

But the bible certainly doesn't say that. And none of its proponents do. Matt, if you believe otherwise, then you are not a True Christian and sooner or later you'll probably be back as an ex-christian.

 

 

Sure, there are problems with christianity and bible-god other than the hell doctrine. But once hell's removed, then i'm willing to listen. (Listen to God that is, not to his followers)

 

bongo

[Amethyst]

The hell myth was a huge reason I left.

 

1. It's plagiarized from pagan myths.

 

2. There is NO proof it exists outside of the Bible & church propaganda. If such a place existed, don't you think that scientists would have been able to prove it by now? Don't you find it odd that it's the 21st century and there are still people who believe in such a myth?

 

3. It's a mind-control tactic to get you to believe out of fear, and to keep you believing "just in case" hell exists. Hell is just a primitive medieval superstition generated by the church in order to control people.

 

4. Do you really want to worship a god who would send little children & other people to hell just because they were born into an atheist family? Or agnostic? Or pagan? Or Buddhist? Or Jewish? How about the people born gay who can't go straight because it is genetic? Do you really think they deserve torture (and if you do, you're a bigot)?

 

A god like that is a bigoted, hateful, vengeful, heartless, sadistic tyrant. He is no better than Saddam Hussein or Hitler. He is not worth your time, money, or effort.

 

Christianity is just another cult and the hell doctrine proves it. All the hell myth does is keep you there out of fear.

 

Think for a moment. Do you really want to spend the rest of your life in a cult that has to make you feel afraid to stay in it? If not, then I suggest reading the Age of Reason by Thomas Paine. Also, read the Jesus Mysteries. Both of those are good books which debunk religion.

 

And think about this, because I know you are probably afraid you will go to hell for reading them. Any god that would torture a human being for ALL OF ETERNITY, think about that, eternity, just for reading a book is not worth worshipping.

[Lycorth]

Hello, Matt - I am a recent ex-Christian, and I've been discussing the issue of my former religion and why I can no longer accept it on several discussion boards, and have come up with a list of nine reasons why I am not a Xian anymore - it's pretty much plagarized from an old post of mine on this board. These reasons apply to all denominations that accept the Bible as the "Word of God" and perhaps they will help you as you decide between accepting or rejecting the christcult.

 

For your reading pleasure...

 

A. I cannot accept a god who is supposedly all-knowing and yet who does not show me the evidence I need to believe in it. If Yahweh is all-knowing, he would know what I'd need to be shown, and show it. He does not, therefore he is not

 

B. I cannot accept a god who is supposedly all-powerful yet does nothing about the primary enemy he has. If our souls were so valuable and the devil such a threat to them, then why not just cut the crap and eliminate Satan? Why play games with our souls and make us jump through hoops, especially since being all-knowing makes Yahweh capable of knowing that virtually no one would be able to follow Christianity correctly.

 

C. I cannot accept a god who knows it all yet institutes a religion so full of nonsense. All the Big Three Monocults are very convoluted, and have no rational basis for virtually all they propose. Their parables make no sense, their moral laws are often shrouded in riddles, and especially in the case of Christianity, it is written that it is intentionally made to be confusing. WTF? If our souls were so important, why not just hand down a set of clear and concise moral and ritual laws in an easy-to-understand package? Again, why not cut the crap?

 

D. I cannot accept a god who creates a universe yet wants us to believe it is nothing and transitory, and that only the spiritual really matters. Sex, necessary to bring forth life is supposedly a sin, and even in "lawful" marriage it isn't as "holy" as virginity. Well, without people losing their virginity in good, natural sex, where would the next generation of Christians come from? In short, I cannot accept a god who goes through all the bother to make all the world and then expects us to act as if none of it matters except how much of our lives we spend kissing his ass. Anyone knows that if your life revolves obsessively around your religion, your religion has gotten way out of hand. But, if you are serious about Christianity (or any of the Big Three) your life has to revolve around it. You have to eat, sleep, and breathe Jesus - that's the undeniable essence of the Gospels. You'd have no time for anything else, or else you're ignoring biblegodzilla in favor of transitory, mundane things - like family, love, health, etc.

 

E. I cannot accept a god who is so sick as to condemn people to an eternity of suffering, no chance of parole, for so meaningless a crime as not believing in Jesus or missing Mass one day and not being sorry for it, or anything as trite as what we are taught are sins. Yahweh is a total hypocrite, and we are taught to forgive any offense as many times as it is committed, yet Yahweh does not do the same for us. Yahweh supposedly knows that we will find Jesus hard to accept, yet condemns us anyway. That's not a religion of love, that's a religion of fear. Being threatened with so insanely cruel a punishment as eternal torture is utterly demonic.

 

F. I cannot accept a god who wants us to not "resist evil" and to "turn the other cheek" when we are attacked. If life is so precious, especially as all the Christian churches rant and rave about, surely we wouldn't be given such muddled garbage about letting evil people walk all over us. There is no symbolic interpretation of those words of Christ - it's literally being a doormat for Jesus' sake. Screw that.

 

G. I cannot accept a god whose god is more evil than the supposed bad guy. Satan is supposed to be the prince and author of all evil, yet in the Bible it is Yahweh, not Satan, who incinerates cities, floods planets, drowns people, orders armies to kill, rape, and murder, condones slavery and torture and requires the blood sacrifices of innocent animals - and even his own son! Satan did not do a single one of those things, yet Yahweh and Jesus are supposed to be the "way and the truth and the life"? Don't make me die laughing.

 

H. I cannot accept a god who thinks that having his own son (or any innocent person) executed is better than just snapping his fingers and ridding the world of sin, or at least forgiving everyone in such fashion. Why the blood and gore of the Passion? Why all the drama and violence? Is it because that reverberates with the human sense of compassion, as in "who could say no to such a sacrifice?" sort of thing?

 

I. I cannot accept a god or religion that claims to be the eternal truth and yet has not eternally existed. If Adam and Eve did indeed sin in the Garden, then why not send Jesus immediately? Why wait all the time from the Garden of Eden till the engagement of Joseph and Mary? Why, again, play games with people's souls? Why let all those people die without, oh my gosh, not knowing Jesus ? If Xianity is the only path to heaven, then why wait to institute it? That's like holding medicine from the sick for no reason when you have the power to heal them.

 

I hope this helps, Matt. Don't be afraid to trust your own mind and heart!

[Open_Minded]

Hey, my names Matt I became a christian last year out of fear, since then all ive done is research. Why you say? because I am scared for the people of the earth and wouldnt want any of them to go to the traditional view of hell that scared me in to being a christian. Anywhoo enough about me. Ive been reading Lost books or (unadded) books from the bible. As you probably know The bible was put together by prefesssing wise men who were not the same religion as that of a traditional christian.

 

Hello Matt:

 

I'm Christian and I don't believe in hell. A few thoughts.

 

1. When I was a young teenager my parents left the Catholic church. My siblings and I continued at the Catholic schools for a few year because of friendships. When a priest informed me, in front of 20 other students in religion class, that my parents were going to hell because they left the Catholic church, I decided that if this was the type of God that I was suppose to worship I wanted no part of it. And then I refused to attend any more religion classes by this priest.

 

2. You might want to read the thread in Rants and Replies titled "Need Help - Seriously". This thread is about a young 15 year old girl I know. And I am very concerned for her right now because of influence this type of theology has had on her.

 

3. Here is the most important point Matt. If God is LOVE then hell does not exist. A God of LOVE would never consign anyone, or anything to hell. If you like to read you should really pick up If Grace Is True : Why God Will Save Every Person . The link follows: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006251704...glance&n=283155

 

4. Matt this statement says much, "Hey, my names Matt I became a christian last year out of fear". It is not healthy to make decisions based in fear. Your decisions, especially decisions about your spiritual life, should be based in love and what is healthy. If the church you are at now causes you to feel fear, I would run from it. I'd find a church that is more liberal in it's focus, or I would look at some other (more productive) way to approach spirituality.

[Checkmate]

Hello Matt. Here is something for your reading pleasure about the unreality of "hell".

 

The Case Against Hell

By Mercy Aiken

Link

Here is just an excerpt of the beginning:

The case against Hell: Did you know that there is a solid scriptural case to be made against the idea of Hell? Many non-Christians have rejected the concept of Hell, but it may come as a surprise to learn that there is a growing number of Bible-believing Christians who also reject the notion—not in spite of Scripture but because of it! This short study is meant only to raise some questions and provide brief answers. For further study, please refer to the links at the end of the article.

 

An open and unbiased study of the Bible, including many key Greek and Hebrew words as well as Church history will reveal some surprising things.

 

For instance, did you know that……..

 

“Hell” Is Not an Old Testament doctrine:

 

Popular myth: Hell is an established Biblical doctrine that is in the Bible from start to finish. This is not true! Two thirds of the Bible (the Old Testament) do not mention Hell at all. (“Sheol,” the Old Testament word that is sometimes translated as Hell, only means “grave” by definition, and it is where everyone in the Old Testament went when they died--good or evil, Jew or Gentile). Thus the Old Testament does not contain the concept of Hell!

 

Think about it………

 

If Hell is real, why didn’t God make that warning plain right at the beginning of the Bible? God said the penalty for eating of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was death--not “eternal life” in fire and brimstone.

 

If Hell is real, why wasn’t Cain warned about it, or Sodom and Gomorrah, or any of those who committed the earliest recorded “sins?”

 

If Hell is real why didn't Moses warn about this fate in the Ten Commandments or the Mosaic Covenant consisting of over 600 laws, ordinances, and warnings? The Mosaic Law simply stated blessings and cursings in this lifetime.

 

If Hell is real, why are its roots in paganism, rather than the Bible? Many nations surrounding Israel in the Old Testament believed in Hell-like punishment in the afterlife, for they served bloodthirsty and evil “gods,” while Israel simply taught the grave (sheol) and a hope of a resurrection. If Hell is real, why was the revelation of it first given to pagan nations, instead of God’s covenant people?

Aiken continues to explain that "hell" is just a construct of Pagan/Greek/Roman minds. "God" had nothing to do with it and Israel had no knowledge of it. Your fear of hell is not only unhealthy, but it is also unnecessary. There is no "hell" of which to be afraid. I hope you come back to read these posts and are set free from your fear.

[Mythra]

If you are going to live in fear of Hell, then - as MadameM says - maybe you should convert to Islam. Their hell is much scarier. Or, perhaps you should worship Atum, Horus, and Ra. Since the concept of hell originates in Egyptian mythology.

 

[Of hell] "The more enlightened sages of the Mysteries viewed such horrors as merely stories to encourage better moral behavior. Plutarch calls the terrors of the Underworld an 'improving myth'. The Christian philosopher Origen likewise argued that the literal terrors of hell were false, but they ought to be publicized in order to scare simpler believers"

 

"Origen, however, was posthumously condemned by the Roman Catholic Church as a heretic for his compassionate belief that all souls would eventually be redeemed. The Roman Church required all Christians to believe that some souls would suffer in hell forever, while the faithful would enjoy eternal salvation.

 

This is the one doctrine on the afterlife which Celsus regards as distinctively Christian. He writes:

'Now it will be wondered how men so desperate in their beliefs can persuade others to join their ranks. The Christians use sundry methods of persuasion, and invent a number of terrifying incentives. Above all, they have concocted an absolutely offensive doctrine of everlasting punishment and rewards, exceeding anything the philosophers (who have never denied the punishment of the unrighteous or the reward of the blessed) could have imagined' "

 

From the book "The Jesus Mysteries"

[Mythra]

Here is the fate which awaits Christians, according to Muslims:

 

Koran 40:67-40:73

Do you not see how those who dispute the revelation of God turn away from the right path ? Those who have denied the Book and the message We sent through Our apostles shall realize the truth hereafter: when, with chains and shackles round their necks, they shall be dragged through scalding water and then burnt in the fire of Hell.

 

 

Koran 18:28-30

For the wrongdoers We have prepared a fire which will encompass them like the walls of a pavilion. When they cry out for help they shall be showered with water as hot as molten brass, which will scald their faces. Evil shall be their drink, dismal their resting-place.

 

 

Koran 22:19-22:23

Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Scalding water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed with rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, back they shall be dragged, and will be told: 'Taste the torment of the Conflagration!'

 

And on and on it goes. If you want to avoid such a fate, perhaps you should face Mecca five times a day and protrate yourself to Allah in repentance for having followed the lie that Jesus was Allah.

 

And so, Matt - you will say - "yes, but Islam is not a true religion". Are you sure? How do you know?

Islam says the exact same thing about Christianity. With God's word to back them up. And Jews say the same thing. With God's word to back them up. And Hindu's say Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are all three wrong. With God's word to back them up.

 

You are young and obviously thoughtful. Don't swallow any of this stuff hook, line, and sinker. Use your mind and your common sense. You'll figure it out.

[Bongo]

Wolfheart, that was great!