Asimov's Points to Ponder #3

[Asimov]

So I’m perusing my December 14th copy of 24 Hours (a daily free magazine which posts articles….some of questionable veracity), and I come across my FAVOURITE part: The ‘What’s on your mind?’ section. In this section readers get to send in their opinions. Everybody has opinions; it just seems like stupid people have more of them.

 

There has been considerable coverage on the Liberals plan to outlaw handguns and, maybe a few months ago I would have been jumpin’ in the air giving a cheer for my party doing the right thing. It takes guts to realise you’re wrong, and after a specific discussion in a chat room with some people regarding the whole gun issue I realised the folly of my ways. Gun control is a terrible idea, and outlawing guns is not the answer. I will prove that in a second, but allow me to get back to what I read in 24 hours and see if you can spot the error.

 

“The bottom line is: Guns murder. End of story. If you love your family, your children, your friends, yourself, even the planet for that matter, you would do everything in your power to stop guns from destroying Canada. It’s time for the stupidity to stop.” – Joe Simon

 

Yes, it is time for the stupidity to stop and it takes a certain amount of ignorance to write something like that. Ignorance of what, you ask? Facts, my dear Watson, because not only do guns not murder, by definition, but they actually do not attribute a significant amount of death to Canadians…nor do they ruin the environment as stated in this atrocious opinion.

 

You see, Joe, guns do not murder. If by gun you mean human, then yes, guns murder:

 

mur·der

n.

1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

 

However, since a gun is not a human you are wrong. According to some statistics I found, in the year 2001 there were 2, 778 motor vehicle accidents resulting in deaths in Canada. In 2001 there were 842 gun deaths (not just homicides). Wow.

 

The bottom line is: Cars murder. End of story. If you love everyone and are a tree-hugging hippy, you would do everything in your power to stop cars from destroying Canada. It’s time for the stupidity to stop, people.

 

Using the same logic that Joe uses, we should ban anything that hurts anyone or has the potential to hurt anyone. And that goes for anything from plastic knives to shovels.

 

A gun is a tool and it can be used for good purposes or bad purposes. Am I an advocate for licensing only after passing a practical test so that you don’t accidentally de-brain your best friend? Yes. Should Canadians be able to protect themselves from criminals trying to invade their home or harm them? Yes. Do you really think a ban on guns is going to deter law-breakers? They’re not going to suddenly say “oh, guns are illegal now….I guess I should get a job….” This is actually protecting criminals from the very people they are trying to hurt.

 

In the words of Joe Simon….It’s time for the stupidity to stop. Thank you Joe Simon, for allowing me to take your quote out of context and apply it to something that makes sense.

[♦ nivek ♦]

Smith and Wesson Cam

 

Saying guns cause crime is like saying forks and spoons make Oprah and Rosie fat..

 

If firearms *caused* crime, haciendaFatman would be a hotbed of criminal activity.

However in my rural town, the block around our little place is by far the safest place a person would want to be in most events of unrest or dis-order..

 

Compass needles swing towards my place when folks use them within half a mile of the place.

Electromagnatism doesn't work. Chuck Norris lost his roundhouse ability due to all the steel in my place.

World, if it comes to a sucking end will be in part to the entropy, the sucking caused by the hole that opens up in the crust from the weight of the ams and ammo in and around the place..

 

It was the siggy making rounds on net for a few years for RKBA activists:

 

"It is more Politically Correct to find a woman raped and strangled with her pantyhose than standing over the smoking holed body of her attacker yelling "How do I reload this son of a bitch!?"

 

Prefer my lady to be alive...

 

kL

[Onyx]

Guns should be used responsibly, that's my opinion.

Why not teach them how to use guns and teach them how to be moral while using them?

Penalties should be for misusing guns, jail or death or whatever for murdering people with guns if the victim didn't commit a crime.

 

Guns should be either for targeting or protection against crime.

It MUST be locked out of reach of the children unless for target practices and education.

It's okay to shoot a violent criminal in the chest or whatever.

But for petty criminals, you can only shoot warning shots.

With guns, comes great responbility.

Guns is not to be taken too lightly or too seriously.

You have to respect and take care with guns.

Guns must not be fired irresponsibly.

 

 

You've been warned.

[greasemonkey]

Hmmm

 

I never gave gun control a single thought in the world, never even fired a gun till I was in my early 30's. That changed when I got married for some reason. The area I live in isn't exceptionally high risk for crime, but you never know... I do have a couple of points to ponder on about gun control.

 

1) I doubt terrorism would ever consider making an assualt on urban Dallas, or any small town in Texas for that matter, because a large number of us is armed. That's a deterrent. When they started giving concealed handgun permits, the crime rate went down a little (not a LOT, but some), and abuses were few. I think the idea of terrorist cell attacking a neighborhood is a little absurd, but the invasion of our country however unlikely, is always a possibility (even if it may never happen in our lifetimes). Natural disasters are a little more likely. I for one would like to have the ability to defend myself and protect what is mine.

 

2) I've read some far-leftist statistics that large cities tend to want more gun control. They don't often mention the demographics though. It generally tends to be people who can't afford guns and live in high crime areas that want more gun control. Gun control tends to only hinder the innocent though, the criminals will find the guns regardless.

 

3) The founding father's stuck that amendment in there for a reason. Read the Declaration of Independence and you'll see that part of our job as a citizen is to replace our government if they become too oppressive. Sheesh, this alone should make the far left re-think the gun-control issue; if there was ever an administration that MIGHT need to be removed at gunpoint... yada yada yada.

 

Now to give a little credit to the opposing view, maybe self-defense classes might be in order for handgun owners. Perhaps mandated would be overkill, but maybe just strongly encouraged. One seldom to never hears about a black belt going on a rampage killing people (outside of hollywood anyway). A gun is "purchased" power. You own a gun, or carry a gun, you have power. Power that you bought. This is the type of power that most criminals have. Martial arts and self-defense is an "earned" power; you work your tail off for it, and there is a much lesser likelyhood of abusing that power when earned by self-discipline rather than the all powerful dollar. It might also cut down on the occurence of people being killed (or robbed, etc) with thier own gun because they hesitated to pull the trigger when they had the chance. That's one thing they really drill into your head when you get a concealed permit in Texas. If you aren't able to pull the trigger at the critical time, then you don't need to have the gun in the first place. They also encourage that if you DO have to use it, try to make sure there is only one side of the story to tell...

[SilentLoner]

I dont really have an opinion on gun control. I dont own a gun, i dont think i will in the near future, (though I should admit I like to carry around self-defense knives) I dont really care about the issue. I do think its stupid to say guns kill. might as well blame my bad spelling on the keyboard.

 

some stuff the NRA does really irritates me.

 

Agree with SillyGeezer.

[Vixentrox]

Been shooting guns since I was six just like about every member of my family. I've never even had a speeding ticket. They'll never take my guns from me anymore than they will sieze my vehicle.

[Taphophilia]

I had heard Canada has the most number of guns per person and has the lowest gun related crime. Obviously, you can have guns and not have crime.

 

My ex is an idiot and has guns, when he gets pissed and drunk he shoots up the house. So, I think it's just against nature for drunken idiots to use guns. Use them responsibly.

 

Also, I am not sure if anyone else would agree with me but as far as hunting goes, I think if you kill it, you eat it.

 

Taph

[Wertbag]

From gun violence website in regards to US gun death stats:

"Firearms are the second leading cause of traumatic death related to a consumer product in the United States and are the second most frequent cause of death overall for Americans ages 15 to 24. Since 1960, more than a million Americans have died in firearm suicides, homicides, and unintentional injuries. In 2001 alone, 30,242 Americans died by gunfire: 17,108 in firearm suicides, 12,129 in firearm homicides, 762 in unintentional shootings, and 243 in firearm deaths of unknown intent, according to the National Center for Health Statistics. Nearly three times that number are treated in emergency rooms each year for nonfatal firearm injuries."

 

Earlier it was mentioned 800 deaths in Canada in 2001, even if the numbers are off by hundreds of fatalies there is something very wrong with 12,000 deaths in the US as opposed to the rest of the western world. It was the basis of the Bowling for Columbine movie, which regardless of the exact numbers and the way it was presented did raise the question, why are Americans so prone to gun violence?

 

I've been amazed by some of the guns advertised as home defence. Automatic with a 30 round clip... what the hell are you defending your home against?!

[Asimov]

From gun violence website in regards to US gun death stats:

"Firearms are the second leading cause of traumatic death related to a consumer product in the United States and are the second most frequent cause of death overall for Americans ages 15 to 24. Since 1960, more than a million Americans have died in firearm suicides, homicides, and unintentional injuries. In 2001 alone, 30,242 Americans died by gunfire: 17,108 in firearm suicides, 12,129 in firearm homicides, 762 in unintentional shootings, and 243 in firearm deaths of unknown intent, according to the National Center for Health Statistics. Nearly three times that number are treated in emergency rooms each year for nonfatal firearm injuries."

 

Earlier it was mentioned 800 deaths in Canada in 2001, even if the numbers are off by hundreds of fatalies there is something very wrong with 12,000 deaths in the US as opposed to the rest of the western world. It was the basis of the Bowling for Columbine movie, which regardless of the exact numbers and the way it was presented did raise the question, why are Americans so prone to gun violence?

 

I've been amazed by some of the guns advertised as home defence. Automatic with a 30 round clip... what the hell are you defending your home against?!

 

It's the American perspective of passion over reason.

[♦ nivek ♦]

From gun violence website in regards to US gun death stats:

"Firearms are the second leading cause of traumatic death related to a consumer product in the United States and are the second most frequent cause of death overall for Americans ages 15 to 24.

Since 1960, more than a million Americans have died in firearm suicides, homicides, and unintentional injuries. In 2001 alone, 30,242 Americans died by gunfire: 17,108 in firearm suicides, 12,129 in firearm homicides, 762 in unintentional shootings, and 243 in firearm deaths of unknown intent, according to the National Center for Health Statistics. Nearly three times that number are treated in emergency rooms each year for nonfatal firearm injuries."

 

Earlier it was mentioned 800 deaths in Canada in 2001, even if the numbers are off by hundreds of fatalies there is something very wrong with 12,000 deaths in the US as opposed to the rest of the western world. It was the basis of the Bowling for Columbine movie, which regardless of the exact numbers and the way it was presented did raise the question, why are Americans so prone to gun violence?

 

I've been amazed by some of the guns advertised as home defence. Automatic with a 30 round clip... what the hell are you defending your home against?!

 

Wert,

 

Your stipulations make a discussion point by point hard to do. As the, err, one of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms/2A Activists and Self Protection loudmouths I'll try to do so.

 

From gun violence website in regards to US gun death stats:

 

Quote an exact source please. Not good enough to bandy assorted mumbers and figures around and not allow me the privilidge of seeing their "root".

I can pull figures out of my broad hairy fat ass and make them sound good, however they won't be any more provable as their source is SOL.

 

"Firearms are the second leading cause of traumatic death related to a consumer product in the United States. snipped

 

Please source this one also. I have on fille indicators and statistics (lies and damned lies) that show this to be untrue at best, and flat out bullshit at worst.

 

....second most frequent cause of death overall for Americans ages 15 to 24.

 

Care to notice that young men in that catagory die more often than anone but smokers and realllly old folks? Know why? Age we men take chances and do crazy shit. Also is median age of the inner city 8youth* who mishandle and criminally use firearms for theivery and murder of citizens and themselves.

Mere numbers do not indicate a general trend for an entire populace.

Do some investigation and see where and what is causing this spike and you will see that the big cities are the harbors for the criminal activity that causes *youth death by fiream*.

 

Since 1960

 

What is 1960 indicate for this discussion? Why did the authors of the article pick a spot 46 YEARS in history to try and make point?

In that time frame how many Americans have died of all causes, including lack of life?

 

have died in firearm suicides, homicides, and unintentional injuries.

 

Ahh OK, lets now get to the big cheese, the kahuna statistic. All injuries can eventually be classed as unintentional with a few minor mental exceptions to the *Easy Answer Jar Rules*. Very few folks bother to shoot themselves unless they really want out.

You are aware that folks trying a firearm to end their life have often tried other less intrusive means and were not able to do the life taking? Most often according to those who have intimate knowledge of the suicidal persons, the gunfire was often proceeded by many other *tries* by many other methods.

 

A suicidal or homicidal person is not stopped by the lack of a specific tool, they just move onto one that they can get hands on and use for their purposes.

 

Japan has some of the most stringent anti-civilian gun laws on book, yet the highest suicide rate of any industrial nation. The folks there like the edge of steel, its tool they can use.

 

In 2001 alone, 30,242 Americans died by gunfire: 17,108 in firearm suicides, 12,129 in firearm homicides, 762 in unintentional shootings, and 243 in firearm deaths of unknown intent, according to the National Center for Health Statistics.

 

Again, show your homework. show sources, and please desist in merely quoting others work in a discussion like this one.

 

Kanadastan, the Socialist Paradise

 

Don't know what to say about their offical statistics, save to say if firearms are not a problem there, why is the Liberal-Socialist goobermint trying so damnned hard to disarm the Canadians whose arms have done nothing wrong?

 

 

It was the basis of the Bowling for Columbine movie, which regardless of the exact numbers and the way it was presented did raise the question, why are Americans so prone to gun violence?

 

Again stas are showing a dramatically dropping curve of violent crime and arms used by criminals by noted stat keeping agencies such as FBI.

If you listen to Moore you might figure the country is awash with gun toting do-ragged punks shooting bluehaired grandmas on every street corner.

 

Aint'a happening.

 

I've been amazed by some of the guns advertised as home defence. Automatic with a 30 round clip... what the hell are you defending your home against?!

 

Automatic? As in fully automatic Title-II/Class-3 firearms, capable of firing more than one round a trigger pull? Harshly regulated since 1934.

 

Semi-automatic? One round per pull? Old technology been around since Hiram maxim and John Moses Browning's days well over 100 years into past.

Modern arms use new materials, look black and ugly as fuck, but nothing exceptionally different than Grandad could and did own in 1900.

 

As for a *mere* 30 rounds, who the fuck carries ONLY 30 rounds to a gunfight?

You ARE kidding aren't you? Sheeit I have that much just in loaded mags for my extra pistols..

 

Oh, you asked why??.. Oh, because I can, and no one from goobermint R Us is gonna tell me I am disallowed.

 

THE SAMURAI, THE MOUNTIE, AND THE COWBOY David Koppel

 

If you don't have access to this book, be pleased to send it to you for your perusal.

 

Firearms are simply one tool in a kit of such that allow Freedom from Tyrants.

 

That some are misused and handled poorly in a Nation of almost 300 millions is a statisitcal glitch, until the night that evile minded glitch comes to relieve you of life and property.

 

daFatman espouses and practices that a "well regulated", shot in, targeted, and trained with 38 Special revolver is of more use in the hands of a Citizen than a platoon of armed goons "watching".

 

When shit goes bump in the off hours, your 38 close by or in hand is more an extension of your will than just a chunk of machined metal and some chemicals.

 

Don't allow the anti-firearms crowd sway you with the promise of peace on earth...

 

k, one_evile_mean_old_fatman, L

[Asimov]

You were one of the people who convinced me otherwise in regards to gun control. Although I've never held a gun and abhor unnecessary violence, as I'm sure you do, I would take more comfort in knowing that you own guns than a cracked out desperado who needs a fix.

[Wertbag]

My post was mearly a discussion point and not meant as an attack on your beliefs.

I found the info by googling "gun deaths in america" and hitting the link:

http://www.vpc.org/nrainfo/phil.html

 

Are you saying that there aren't 12,000 deaths in the US as opposed to 800 in Canada? Be great if thats true, I've tried several different sites but keep coming up with similar stats such as:

In 1998 gun homicides:

373 people in Germany

151 people in Canada

57 people in Australia

19 people in Japan

54 people in England and Wales, and

11,789 people in the United States

 

from: http://www.ichv.org/Statistics.htm

 

Of course there are stats that are quite interesting the other way:

Washington D.C. enacted a virtual ban on handguns in 1976. Between 1976 and 1991, Washington D.C.'s homicide rate rose 200%, while the U.S. rate rose 12%.

Between 1977 and 1992, 10 states adopted right-to-carry laws. Dr. Lott's study found that the implementation of these laws created:

-- no change in suicide rates,

-- a .5% rise in accidental firearm deaths,

-- a 5% decline in rapes,

-- a 7% decline in aggravated assaults,

-- and an 8% decline in murder

 

for the 10 states that adopted these laws between 1977 and 1992.

* Using 1995 numbers, this amounts to:

 

-- 1 more accidental gun death,

-- 316 less murders,

-- 939 less rapes,

-- and 14,702 less aggravated assaults

in these 10 states annually.

 

The "Assault Weapons Ban" was enacted on September 14, 1994. This bill banned the manufacture, possession, and importation of semiautomatic assault weapons for civilian use.

 

All from the site:

 

http://www.justfacts.com/gun_control.htm

 

So which stats do we believe? Are there 12,000 deaths, or has the death rate reduced?

 

I'm from New Zealand where most people would have never handled a gun, the majority of our police do not carry guns, and if theres a gun related crime its rare enough to make headline news. We do have hunters, pest control and target shooters, but we do not have guns for home defence.

Its very different to the US situation, so I'm not in a position to make any claims or have an opinion on your country. Just interested in the debate...

[All Gods Fail]

Guns are great. Everyone should own at least a couple - a handgun (at least a 9mm) and some sort of assault rifle, or an assault-style shotgun (magnum rounds, .00 buckshot alternating with slugs). Kids should be shooting guns as early as they're old enough. More guns would prevent another 9/11. Gun control is unpatriotic and pro-terrorist, as well as pro-commie. The insignificant few lives lost to inappropriate gun violence is miniscule compared to the number of lives saved every day by gunplay. Criminals will leave you alone if you're armed.

 

You also shouldn't worry if a neighbor has a large collection of guns. You are that much safer from rapists and terrorists. And the likelihood that your neighbor will discharge a round or 2 through your window (accidentally or otherwise) is low. It almost never happens. The more people carrying weapons, the safer you are. With proper training, guns will rarely be misused by drunk, crazy, or angry people. Gun safety prevents that.

 

Also, guns give you confidence and peace of mind. Although it's true dogs deter most burglars, guns deter them more because they will never know if you are awake and holding a cocked 9mm in your hand, sitting in he dark just waiting to shoot them as soon as they're legally in your house. Most criminals are intelligent, rational people who never take unnecessary risks, especially with guns.

 

Guns increase our safety. Ask any gun-owner.

[Asimov]

Why the need to bring in those silly words like "unpatriotic" "pro-terrorist" and "pro-commie"?

[Mike D]

Gun control is stupid. I own 2 guns and fire them regularly and aside from the fact that they are protection they are just fun to shoot.

 

The only thing I support that maybe isn't being done now is mandatory safety training for people who want to shoot and/or own a gun. As it is right now, I think in many states in the US any idiot without any training can purchase a gun and bring it into their home, which is a risk to all inhabitants of the home (espeically kids) as well as the immediate neighbors. These people actually scare me more than criminals....

[SkepticOfBible]

I'm from New Zealand where most people would have never handled a gun, the majority of our police do not carry guns, and if theres a gun related crime its rare enough to make headline news. We do have hunters, pest control and target shooters, but we do not have guns for home defence.

Its very different to the US situation, so I'm not in a position to make any claims or have an opinion on your country. Just interested in the debate...

hey hey, I am in New Zealand too.

 

I am from India, but I found New Zealand and Canada a great country to live in.

 

In short I don't think it's a short and easy answer. Each country should decide on it's own whether they need to arm themselves.

 

Personally, I am not in favor of Guns, since I come from a Country where Non Violence is heavily emphasised.

[Asimov]

Gun control is stupid. I own 2 guns and fire them regularly and aside from the fact that they are protection they are just fun to shoot.

 

Your penis and the penis of your lover don't count as guns, even though I know it may be fun to shoot each other with them!

 

[♦ nivek ♦]

prithsd, how soon you forget your Nation's history:

 

Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest. -- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

 

You may think your actions are meaningless and that they won't help, but that is no excuse, you must still act. -- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

 

Noncooperation with evil is as much a duty as cooperation with good. -- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

 

 

 

 

kL

[Asimov]

Thanks nivek, for those interesting points you bring up.

 

Even though you may not like me for my "apparent" immaturity on these boards, I respect you for your insistence on freedom and your right to be a free man.

[♦ nivek ♦]

Thanks nivek, for those interesting points you bring up.

 

Even though you may not like me for my "apparent" immaturity on these boards, I respect you for your insistence on freedom and your right to be a free man.

 

High compliment indeed Asimov.. I've been wrong, flat wrong before, and will be many times again before I pass on.

Sure that any problem I have with you will be tamed with some thought on my part and more examination of my place here.

 

Good words appreciated.

 

kl

[Mike D]

Your penis and the penis of your lover don't count as guns, even though I know it may be fun to shoot each other with them!

Ok that was just totally cheesy

[Asimov]

Your penis and the penis of your lover don't count as guns, even though I know it may be fun to shoot each other with them!

Ok that was just totally cheesy

 

Oh, that reminds me...*takes a picture*

[Mike D]

Good boy

[SkepticOfBible]

prithsd, how soon you forget your Nation's history:

 

Hey KL,

 

No I have not forgotten my country's history. But I am not an historian nor am I autobiographer of Gandhi, so I would not know every single speech he made.

 

Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest. -- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

 

Well one of the things that happens in debates that you may be aware, is when people start quoting each other out of context. If you would have done a little research on this quote you will find that this is actually in reference to the British disarmament of the Indian Army.

 

So i don't think the above quote proves that he advocated violence, nor does it proves that he advocated the individual right to bear arms.

 

You may think your actions are meaningless and that they won't help, but that is no excuse, you must still act. -- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

 

Noncooperation with evil is as much a duty as cooperation with good. -- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

 

 

Well Gandhi did start the civil disobedience movement in India, but he had always emphasised on non violence. In fact there were some Indian freedom fighters that took a violent method, but every time they commited violence commited violence, Gandhi and Congress party was the first to condemn it.

 

It is ironic, that many Hindu Fundamentalist and ultra nationalist in our country condemn Gandhi because they think that Gandhi was sissy who could not stand up against British Govt.

 

I highly recommend to watch the movie "Gandhi". It is a good representation of his life.

 

Other Quotes of Gandhi Which Talks In Favour of Non Violence

[HadouKen24]

Guns? They're effective, but they lack a certain finesse in most hands. I tell you, though, there are few things more terrifying or deadly than an angry trained swordsman in his own home.

 

* pats his katana *

 

'Course, I have a friend who's apparently a natural with throwing knives. Which is something that would be freaking scary to come up against.