rach Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 When I was going to church we were always taught that no matter what kind of hell we would be put through on earth, it's all ok, because heaven's going to make up for it. There's going to be ever increasing joy or some such. The horrible thing about this teaching is that it can be used to justify anything at all. There was a commentary I read in the bible some years ago that said even if a person were subjected to eighty years of intense, lifelong suffering on this earth (such as homelessness, hunger, pain, and cold), it really wouldn't matter, because heaven would make it all right. I am sure those arrogant words were written by a well-off, well-fed preacher who has not known a day of disability, starvation or freezing cold in his life. To just brush off a lifetime of extreme suffering like that is heartless. Of course heaven has been used to justify slavery because those "heathen Africans" would not have been 'saved' through conversion if they had not forcibly been brought over and subdued in servitude. Nevermind their whole lives being destroyed, they get to walk the streets of gold with their slave drivers after their bodies finally give out from exhaustion and die and spend an eternity worshiping the great slave master in the sky. The "heathen" American Indians also were 'saved' for heaven by being stripped of their culture, dignity, and freedom (in other words, hollow shells of them were 'saved' to go to heaven, whilst killing off their personhoods). JonBenet Ramsey raped and strangled? Oh well, she's in heaven with Jesus now so it's all ok. This is just like the movie Saw where we have the villain, Jigsaw who is torturing people "for their own good" to make them grateful for being alive. Isn't it scary? I heard a brilliant quote once and I wish I could find it now but it was about how those who torture us believing it is for our own good are the scariest people of all. Because they are so sure they are doing the right thing, they will never stop. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Religion is the opiate of the masses. The whole quote: Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions.Karl Marx, Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right He's not just saying that religion is wrong because it's like a drug. He's saying that the world and its conditions can be bad, and that needs fixed for real, not just with a religious band-aid with promises of happiness in an afterlife. People should be fulfilled in THIS life. I also never liked hearing in church that suffering was fine in this world, as long as we were saved by the blood of jesus, and we'd get our real reward in heaven. Yes, always said by the well-fed preacher. No, suffering in this world is NOT all right. Not when it is something that can and should be alleviated. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerryG Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Is this the quote you're looking for? Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. -- C.S. Lewis I agree; both heaven and hell are nothing but christian manipulation tools -- hell to terrify us into obedience, heaven to persuade us grubby little peasants to accept our lot in life and not ask inconvenient questions of our "betters." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rach Posted October 26, 2013 Author Share Posted October 26, 2013 Merry that's the quote thanks for finding it! "Those who torment us for our own good"...chilling. Chilling because you can't reason with somebody who thinks they're doing no wrong in tormenting you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilith666 Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 I also never liked hearing in church that suffering was fine in this world, as long as we were saved by the blood of jesus, and we'd get our real reward in heaven. Yes, always said by the well-fed preacher. No, suffering in this world is NOT all right. Not when it is something that can and should be alleviated. It's OK so the well-fed preacher doesn't have to do anything about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisstavrous Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Even evil can be justified so long it ends up with the person been transformed into gods goodness because of it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissingLink Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 This is exactly what I hate most about religion - the acceptance of suffering in this life, and the belief that it is part of some "divine plan"! Just this morning, there was a post on my newsfeed saying, "Sometimes God doesn't change your situation because he is trying to change your heart". REALLY? Is that what you would say to the 3 women sexually abused for 10 years by a monster? Or the people in concentration camps?? Or starving children? <scream> I just HATE the smug, pitiful platitudes christians use to justify any horrible circumstance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisstavrous Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 This is exactly what I hate most about religion - the acceptance of suffering in this life, and the belief that it is part of some "divine plan"! Just this morning, there was a post on my newsfeed saying, "Sometimes God doesn't change your situation because he is trying to change your heart". REALLY? Is that what you would say to the 3 women sexually abused for 10 years by a monster? Or the people in concentration camps?? Or starving children? <scream> I just HATE the smug, pitiful platitudes christians use to justify any horrible circumstance! AMEN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 What bothers me more than someone suffering for decades and dieing and then going to Heaven is someone who suffers and dies and goes to hell simply because they were born into a culture that wasn't Christian and just because they had never heard how to get "saved". Using Heaven to justify long lasting suffering is one thing but a God who uses long lasting Hell to justify circumstance is unforgivable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 This is exactly what I hate most about religion - the acceptance of suffering in this life, and the belief that it is part of some "divine plan"! Just this morning, there was a post on my newsfeed saying, "Sometimes God doesn't change your situation because he is trying to change your heart". REALLY? Is that what you would say to the 3 women sexually abused for 10 years by a monster? Or the people in concentration camps?? Or starving children? <scream> I just HATE the smug, pitiful platitudes christians use to justify any horrible circumstance! It's these same people that forgo this life for the magical, supernatural afterlife to come. This is why religion, ALL religions are scary. People who hold the opinion that this life is so pointless and not worth much can possibly do anything to make sure, even if it's just in their own heads, that they make it into the next life, at the expense of any and everything. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimimom Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Observation of human suffering is a big part of what led to my deconversion. I've always had this thought about heaven in my mind as well. Take the child raped, tortured and murdered. Saying that an eternity of joy in heaven makes up for any suffering we endure in this life is like saying that if the rapist/murderer paid the child's parents a billion dollars, it would be as if the atrocity never happened. And imagine when that child enters heaven....God says welcome, its all bliss from here on out. The child says, ok, but what about what just happened down there? Why didn't you stop him? What could God possibly say? Well, it won't happen again, so come on enjoy my paradise and start worshipping? How could someone who truly loves you allow such a thing to happen? I doubt anyone would have noticed if the rapist had died of a heart attack the day before. Or maybe never been born in the first place. That shouldn't be too hard for God to figure these things out. Or maybe God is just too busy helping believers find their lost wallets or nail their big job interview. And as for the child's parents who have to endure the rest of their life suffering in the pain of losing a child in such a horrific way...I guess they should just accept that God allowed their child to be raped and murdered for a good reason...its all part of God's plan and they'll understand one day. I'm sure when they get to heaven, they'll say Oh! there really was a good reason! Thank you Lord for allowing my child to be raped and murdered...heaven is so amazing...this all makes up for it. Uh huh. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisstavrous Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Even worse when you get to heaven god will force you to remain in total obliviousness. You won't even be able to morn for all the lost since even your tears will be forced from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rach Posted November 10, 2013 Author Share Posted November 10, 2013 Even worse when you get to heaven god will force you to remain in total obliviousness. You won't even be able to morn for all the lost since even your tears will be forced from you. If I ever go to heaven I would definitely want to forget all the awful things that happened in my life so I'd be able to enjoy myself. However, if the bible is true then god predestines some for heaven (Romans 8:29), then he sends them to earth and "tests" the hell out of them (murder, Down Syndrome, car accidents, burns, concentration camps), then they finally die and go to heaven, god snaps them into being perfect beings and they forget all the tests. So why not just cut to the chase and skip the cruel "tests" altogether? Accordng to the bible he has already picked out his "chosen" heaven-buddies and has the power to snap them into perfection. Another dumb thing is how you'll hear about murder victims that the angels carried off to heaven. So the angels apparently were standing there on the sidelines or singing in their praise band whilst your killer is ripping you apart, and after a few excruciating hours your body finally slips into unconscious. NOW the angels step in to carry you to heaven. Too bad they couldn't be there a few hours earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisstavrous Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Even worse when you get to heaven god will force you to remain in total obliviousness. You won't even be able to morn for all the lost since even your tears will be forced from you. If I ever go to heaven I would definitely want to forget all the awful things that happened in my life so I'd be able to enjoy myself. However, if the bible is true then god predestines some for heaven (Romans 8:29), then he sends them to earth and "tests" the hell out of them (murder, Down Syndrome, car accidents, burns, concentration camps), then they finally die and go to heaven, god snaps them into being perfect beings and they forget all the tests. So why not just cut to the chase and skip the cruel "tests" altogether? Accordng to the bible he has already picked out his "chosen" heaven-buddies and has the power to snap them into perfection. Another dumb thing is how you'll hear about murder victims that the angels carried off to heaven. So the angels apparently were standing there on the sidelines or singing in their praise band whilst your killer is ripping you apart, and after a few excruciating hours your body finally slips into unconscious. NOW the angels step in to carry you to heaven. Too bad they couldn't be there a few hours earlier. Too bad indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilith666 Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 And as for the child's parents who have to endure the rest of their life suffering in the pain of losing a child in such a horrific way...I guess they should just accept that God allowed their child to be raped and murdered for a good reason...its all part of God's plan and they'll understand one day. I'm sure when they get to heaven, they'll say Oh! there really was a good reason! Thank you Lord for allowing my child to be raped and murdered...heaven is so amazing...this all makes up for it. That is exactly what they would do. They might even admit it here on earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeCycle Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 You're right Rach. Those who say those things are the ones who don't know what it is to go without or to be in a prolonged stated of confusion and torment. It is arrogance and is one of the many downfalls of Christianity. The things that would be done in God's name.... I guess he just never knew it would get this bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisstavrous Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 And now for something completely different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francesco Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 What I don't like about this idea is people is idolizing heaven so much that they don't care and detached about earthly things Their goal is heaven and threaten other with hell One of the heaven idol from christian forum that I know always talk about heaven and stand by the idea so much that seems like other people will go to hell. he/she even can say x will go to hell, y will go to heaven And it is getting more hilarious when people come with problem. this member will come and put bible passage and said u did sin, u are going to hell Whenever other people try to give a bit compromy, it was rejected right away and marked as stray away from bible and you are going to hell. The way. In other words, my idea is the one that biblical It is not really help, bad thing already happened, people feel bad about it and they need solution, support or even just to be listened Bashing with bible passage and sin and going to hell does not help at all It is very ugly, showing no compassion, and shows that he/she does not have an understand the goal of christian's after life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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