Mycroft Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 Hello people of the internet! I thought it might be nice to share this discussion I had on whatsapp with my friends yesterday. Note: the orange, the light blue and the black are guys, the purple, dark blue and yellow are girls. (My words are black) I didn't really know where to post this, but as a newly deconverted guy telling about a new experience this seems like the most logical choice. I started translating from the point where the discussion started. Enjoy! - But piet, we aren’t animals, right? There are animals, lots and lots of them, and there are people. We are living organisms, just like animals. Just like plants. Yes, but we are not the same kind of organism as animals and/or plants We can take care of the earth for instance. Dear one, we have a lot of matches with animals People have souls, animals and plants don’t. Matches, yes, but we are not animals, whilst all of these kinds of animals are all named with the term “Animals.” Exactly. Because us humans have a pair of brains for instance, and animals have instincts. Have you guys had biology in high school… YesJ But people are, biologically seen, in a higher rank, right? (sends a picture about evolutionism) Haha piet, can your dad actually explain everything scientificly? Haha yes, that is his cup of tea Should I invite him to school some time? Haha I thought so. Seems like fun to be honest I like philosophers and stuff. Interesting, for sure. It is a bit lame to doubt science when it comes to this. Everything we enjoy so much in this world comes forth from that same science. That’s your science. The funding of our science is completely different, right? You are all about evolutionism, I’m all about creationism. (Evolution theory versus the theory of God’s creation) Yeah okay. Maybe this isn’t the right moment for this discussion. I do find it a very interesting discussion, so we’ll resume it some other time. Haha no you’re right, but it just came to me naturally. Okay you’re on. I’ll talk to my older brother first, he knows much more about this than me. ^^ Haha, there’s always so much discussion on whatsapp. Imagine a World without whatsapp… (This is where I come in. It’s 23:00 by now) I don’t think the theory: “You don’t have the answers too, therefore christianity.” is very strong. Seeing ourselves as a higher species is something we made up ourselves 100% And when it comes to caring for the earth… We’re doing an excelent job (sarcasm) After World war three the only things crawling around on the earth will be the cockroaches because of their resistance to radiation. Talking about being a higher species… Ohmy, feel free to discuss with us next time. And I’m not saying that first thing at all… But what are you trying to say? That you believe in that monkey theory too? Very much. At least there’s proof for hat. There is just as little proof for the big bang as for creationism. But does that mean that everything that hasn’t been scientificly proven (yet) is immediatly wrong? I believe in a combination of both It means that when something can be scientificly supported it becomes more realistic than when that is not the case You’re right on that point. But the Faith is just not factually provable. Some things do not have to be proven. Things like the creation of the earth are a matter of Faith and acceptation for me. The Bible is proof enough for me. You believe in a combination of what exactly? You’re very welcome to buy my book ;P Exactly. Having Faith is believing in stories of men. Some times proof in science is based on assumptions “We found this, so it probably went like this.” Like the big bang The people who wrote the Bible were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Then why won’t you believe in the book of Mormon? Or the Koran They were inspired by devine beings too The Koran is a whole other story. I have been raised my whole life with the idea that God exists (and the bible is true), so I can’t imagine that He doesn’t exist or doesn’t want to care for us. That’s called indoctrination, Lisa. I can’t actually explain it. It’s something I’m 100% sure of And yet, you simply can’t deny that with our present knowledge we can accept with reasonable certainty that our life comes forth through the evolution. We didn’t have that knowledge in the past, and it’s not strange that we believed something else without it. The fact that you still believe what you believe is caused by the way you were raised. Or by the Stockholm-syndrom Yes, but it’s not just that. I can now see in my own life how God helps me and cares for me Piet, has the big bang theory ever been scientificly proven? Google it, read articles about it. Roam the internetz. Haha, but you say it is? Still, I deeply realize how Faith can be something very beautiful. I can imagine how it can give you trust. And I find it more probable that God created the earth than that we (through the evolution) *poof* suddenly came to exist from a big bang. It’s still pathos Feeling It’s bullocks scientifically and rationally seen. Go drink beer you guys… (I suppose we were annoying him with all of our notifications) That’s even better We should have this conversation accompanied with the joy of a cold beer Do you know that the oldest civilizations in the world on earth all have the story of a flood with a man called Noach, Noah, or some other variation? I find that pretty extraordinary. Because I honestly find it very interesting, but nobody ever wants to have this discussion, because they’ve already had it so many times in their lives. Exactly. That’s why I find it so frustrating that I can’t explain it to you. It’s something I believe in 100% (and of course I have my doubts and unanswered questions), but it’s very hard to explain because it’s about having faith and lots of you look at things more rationally. And Joas, life is not just about drinking beer. It is on Friday night. You’re right Lisa. Having faith is just having faith. But when it comes to creationism there is something scientifically to say. We think the exact same thing Lisa. But as long as you’re not doubting your reality none of the logic in the world will help us convince you. The most frustrating thing is that if tomorrow there would be very convincing evidence about the big bang, you still wouldn’t believe it. Oh well, frustrating… Let’s say it makes things hard By the end of the day we’ll all turn our back to each other and think something like: “Morons.” But how do you see God now? Do you believe in His existence? Hmmmm…. It’s said that God challenges people. True. To become stronger in your faith eventually. Well, Piet won’t ;P And if you say he exists, then what is his function according to you? I believe somebody has set existence in motion. But that is not the bible god. Somebody is… vague, Sietse By the way, I honestly believe in God, but just the teachings. I don’t have a bond. Very vague ;P Then what is his function according to you? (At this point I started to get very annoyed by Lisa. She was trying to ask rational questions about my theories, but at the same time she couldn’t answer any of our questions rationally, and saw it as her very right to do so. The constant capitals when using words like Him or His or Bible or God were almost starting to feel like an impenetrable barrier. So I decided to make some fun of that to break down her defense) A book in which he Presented Himself 2000 years ago where after he Hasn’t Spoken A Word isn’t very clear either. But Sietse Neither is the fact that I can’t See or Hear Him When I say my Prayers. They are stories, by people. “No, by the Holy Spirit” The Holy Spirit doesn’t have a pen. That’s not exactly true. You say we can’t hear Him anymore, but you got to open up to hear him. And you have to want to see it. Ahhhhh, the everlasting “hand-of-God” Why are you using capitol letters for everything all of a sudden? Have you ever fully believed in him? Maybe in the past? Yes of course, how couldn’t I? From my crib to my baptizing, to the children’s bible and the church clubs Straight to Christian preschool and high school Okay, so it was spoon fed to you. But what happened that made you stop believing? I saw the world around me And the message that was presented to me all these years It all starts with the question: *Enjoying this interesting conversation* Would I have been Christian if my parents would not have been? And in addition to that: Why haven’t I been raised in an Islamic or Hindustani family? Well, why are you a boy? Why is your name Sietse? Why are you talking to us right now? Why are you living in the Netherlands? I wonder that too every now and then, Sietse. What would I believe then? But you can also see that as being something predestined! God wanted you to believe in him, and therefore raised you in a Christian family. I knew you would say that. Okay I believe that lots of things happen for a reason And that things are predestined And now I lost my faith. That was predestined, as everything is, and it fits in Gods plan. Everything is written down in the great book What was the point of that then? That we got to meet each other is something like that too J Because God didn’t make us into robots and therefore we have our own will and our own responsibility. Then how can everything be predestined? (I’m really trying to push the paradox into their faces, but they don’t seem to (want?) to get it) And now you think: oh, if it’s all predestined, things will go the way they should, just like that? Yes That’s the whole idea of predestination God can make something bad happen in your life and use that to show you that you need to trust him And then it comes down to your choice What you do with it But you have your own responsibility… Somebody said: “God’s time is now, it’s up to you now.” What does that bring me when it’s all predestined anyway? True. But the fact that we’re talking about it right now shows that you can decide what you do with it. You know that he exists… God loves you and wants you to live close to him so that he can do the best for you. Even if you don’t understand shit of it. Why is it so bad to accept that? Well, I can understand that… I don’t have the slightest clue if God has the best in mind for me He does, for everybody. Luckily God already knew that I would end in hell… So for you too. Of course God has the best in mind for you Sietse No, he sometimes asks too much from people That depends Siets, you’re not dead yet Thanks We talk about this with each other right now. If God wanted you to end in hell, you might as well have grown up in Africa without ever hearing from God. You’re welcome dear one Then why are there children in these parts of Africa? Because God wants to work there too, by the means of pastors for instance. Why do they have to die young from AIDS, and go to hell just because they haven’t heard the gospel of love, acceptance and redemption? Agreed Why aren’t his ways just perfect? That’s a question I can’t answer, but what I do believe is that lots of people have heard about God at some point in their lives. Don’t come with the story of sin from birth And then it comes down to having faith. God can look into the future, and he can see what a person would have decided in his life (Wtf?) If God is the bible God, then I very much welcome him for a cup of tea Whether or not he would have chosen for him. (WTF!!!) Sietse… Show some respect! No Lisa, just no… xD You die when you’ve played your part Not when God sees that you won’t confess to him anyway. You don’t know that Us humans can’t possibly know that And neither can you How he judges that Even better, we have no physical evidence of his existence That’s why I want to meet God personally As was written about so beautifully in the bible countless times I wont accept Christianity for anything less than that All I’m saying is that I think that almost everybody has encountered God at some point in his life, and that what you do with it is you own choice. Why some die so soon without hearing of God is a riddle to me, but what I have heard is that every human being is born with the knowledge that there is a God/something supernatural Something supernatural. And then it is up to us to figure out that out of all these hundreds of religions we have to pick Christianity? Just because you tell it so beautifully? Yes, you’ll have to take that from us, yes Ah No way ^^ Because it’s true! There is nothing I’m more certain of than that As Pieter mentioned earlier: that’s because of how you were raised. If that wouldn’t be true, my whole life would be a big lie. I believe it’s more like you don’t understand it than that you don’t believe it I am absolutely convinced that God exists and that he loves us and has a certain plan with our life There are questions you’ll never get an answer to But why would you want to know everything? Therefore Christianity? Yes! No! God’s knowledge is ungraspable for us We are clearly nearing the end of this conversation That’s why we can’t understand it You are starting to recall and rely on the ungraspable Accept that you can not figure everything out with logic Haha Lisa Not from you Not from any of you It’s not going to work Not from humans And that God loves you too. And that it is bullshit to assume that God predestined you to go to hell There are people who think further than “you’ll just have to believe it” That’s true, but that’s why I say that there are things you can’t figure out but will just have to believe Yep, and that’s the problem ^^ (It’s now midnight) I have a lot of unanswered questions too, but that’s not a reason to kiss religion all together goodbye I find it useless too You have to open up for it and allow God to enter your life, pray a lot to him… For some it is so… And then I believe there will come moments when you’ll see him in your life You can’t have faith in something you doubt so much And I’m going to bed now Goodnight everybody Me too I’m dog tired - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kolaida Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 So I know I could google it, but what the hell is whatsapp? An app for an ipad that's kind of like What's up? Kind of looks like twitter but just among friends. Gotta agree with the light blue guy. Also, I have to say I think it was Lisa who said that you were "spoon-fed" religion like was she trying to dismiss it as you never making your own choices? I've had that happen to me recently, too. It's like people who hear you were raised in it and turned away don't believe you fully understood it. It sounds like Lisa might possibly be from a very fundamentalist home whether she realizes it or not. It took me a very long time to realize how fundamentalist my family was. Though, it sounds like she does have some good points as she doesn't believe God predestined you go go to Hell, I guess. Also, debating Christians especially friends can be dangerous ground. Oh, and most things can be figured out by logic and I'm by far not even the most logical person here and don't always understand the logic and sometimes have to work hard to keep up and figure out the logic, but there's always a logical explanation for everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawn Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 Lisa sounds like a brainwashed idiot, with horrible critical thinking skills. Kudos to you for remaining calm in the face of such idiocy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExCBooster Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 Great points, Mycroft! You do have a lot of patience, especially with Lisa. She does use the capital letters of God and He as an impenetrable wall, as you said. I have a difficult time with people like her, who don't apply logic to their own side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mycroft Posted November 3, 2013 Author Share Posted November 3, 2013 So I know I could google it, but what the hell is whatsapp? An application for android and iOS smartphones. It's like texting, only whatsapp is free of charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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