Working on a Deconversion

[Joyous1]

I agree with greasemonkey, I think backing off is wise HD. Religion is often referred to as a "crutch" but as I recall I needed crutches after my foot surgery last summer. I would have been very pissed off if someone tried to pull them out from under me before I was ready to walk on my own.

 

If this woman needs an emotional crutch for awhile, leave her be.

 

I for one had my fill of evangelism as a Christian, didn't you? I don't want to take it up again as an agnostic.

[Checkmate]

With all due respect for the "leave her be"/"Don't disturb her faith" crowd, but you are WRONG!

 

This "feeble" Christian, who is so lame, that she needs her fath sheltered and pampered; THIS "Christian" APPROACHED HuaiDan! The Christian is the AGGRESSOR in this instance. She is the one who keeps approaching and broaching the subject. HuaiDan has not been seeking her, nor targeting her for de-conversion! If her faith is so weak that it can't withstand any probing questions, then it is SHE who should back off. HuaiDan hasn't done anything wrong. Nor will he be "wrong" for daring her to think about her faith. Why is it OK for Christians to manipulate us, but "evil" of us to educate them? This is bullshit.

 

I'm sick and tired of Christians thinking that they have the right to say and do whatever the hell THEY want, while WE unbelievers MUST remain silent and "tolerant" of their stupidity without challenging them. THIS is how Christianity survives!

 

Screw this woman. And screw all Christians who seek to push their beliefs on us, while expecting no one to push back!

 

If she's strong enough to "preach" her faith, then she is strong enough to defend her faith! I say kick her fucking "crutches" out from under her, and let her see that she can walk on her own!

 

"Enabling" is NOT helping!

[MQTA]

the seeds were planted?

[Open_Minded]

I'm thinking about backing off of this mission. I strongly condemn the evangelistic efforts of missionaries in China, and I hope the hardliners crack down on those mutherfuckers. They are most definitly not welcome here by the majority, and the are a threat to chinese culture. What I'm afraid of is the Chinese are very tolerant of outsiders and hesitant to inform those that have overstayed their welcome.

However, this woman claims that religion saved her life. SHe says she was feeling suicidal until she found Jesus several years ago. ugh.

While I want to halt the spread of christianity (I've become almost militant in my dedication to ridding the world of this plague, this cancer), I can't bring myself to kicking out the last pillar that's keeping this woman from self destruction. If it makes her happy, so be it. She already told me she wants to keep it a secret.

 

HuaiDan:

 

She did approach you, so somewhere within she needs to talk to you about things. I think your compassion for her psychological health will guide you in determining when and how to talk to her about things. But don't lie to her - in the long run literalist dogma will hurt her. Literalist dogma will only convince her that she is not worthy, or that she is dealing with demons, or a whole list of other sick garbage. You could probably create a longer list than I

 

But the point is - for her psychological health - she needs compassionate honesty from you.

[greasemonkey]

This "feeble" Christian, who is so lame, that she needs her fath sheltered and pampered; THIS "Christian" APPROACHED HuaiDan! The Christian is the AGGRESSOR in this instance. She is the one who keeps approaching and broaching the subject. HuaiDan has not been seeking her, nor targeting her for de-conversion! If her faith is so weak that it can't withstand any probing questions, then it is SHE who should back off. HuaiDan hasn't done anything wrong. Nor will he be "wrong" for daring her to think about her faith. Why is it OK for Christians to manipulate us, but "evil" of us to educate them? This is bullshit.

 

Hey Grinch,

 

Hope you don't take me wrong, because I agree with you for the most part. Huaidan should have plenty of opportunities all in good time. This is kinda why I suggested the buhhdist approach; If he can get her to open up to the root of the problem (depression, pain), then the next steps come much faster.

 

Ruth is kinda full of it (but how many 17 yr olds aren't...?), and christian dogma places a lot of value in keeping the people ignorant. Anyone here with half a brain can see that, but if we fail to take into account the emotional state of the person then we aren't exactly gaining any moral high ground here. We don't know the woman; Huaidan does. If he thinks there is a risk, then I think he probably has a reason for feeling that way.

 

I kinda doubt that any of that is going to mean "sheltering" her or not telling her the truth to preserve her feelings, ESPECIALLY when she is the one asking. Only that one has to be careful about the initial amount of water we give to a person who is dying of thirst.

[Gnosis of Disbelief]

Hey, GoD! Check THIS out. My reply to Sadie about why we get pissed at Christians.

 

Looks like you've been pulled out of your "comfort" zone!

 

Hey! Does anyone remember where that thread is, from a few weeks ago, on this same subject? About whether or not it was right for us to "evangelize" our unbelief, and thus destroy someone's faith? I think we came to some wise conclusions that need to be unearthed.

 

 

 

 

Yup, Ruth's arrogance hit a nerve.....but I do get where HuaiDan is

coming from. A deconversion that would lead to suicide would be

inhumane.

 

OpenMinded does make some excellent points though; there has to

be a compassionate way of rescuing her from the death cult. The

death cult is like sugar-coated poison; right now, she's savoring the

sweet outer coating of it, but when she's past that, she might very

well become suicidal once again.

[Mythra]

Hmm. This all made me think about something. Has anyone ever went from a solid faith in christianity, and then de-converted as the result of someone else convincing them?

 

That doesn't seem to be the pattern. All of the extimonies that I've read here, and my own experience is that the only deconversions begin as individual disillusionments (for varying reasons)

 

I'm not sure you can cause someone's deconversion if they aren't already leaning that direction.

 

I know as recently as one year ago, I would have told you all to go fornicate yourselves.

 

(I was too holy to say fuck)

[Checkmate]

Let me now address ye olde pulling of my non-existent heart strings about this "suicide" talk.

 

I understand that she WAS contemplating self-destruction. That is OVER now, correct? She found "Jesus" and got all better.*

 

So...WHERE is the "risk" in telling her MORE information? You can't possibly expect me to believe that if we replace her religion with, say, secular humanism, that she's going to relapse and slit her throat. If she is THAT whacked out, then perhaps she isn't as "fine" as she says she is. She still needs to be institutionalized.

 

I don't buy it people. If someone is STRONG enough to preach the gospel, and defy the "wicked" authority of her nation, then she's tough enough to endure a few constructive arguments against her faith. If Truth™ is going to make someone slit their wrists, then they truly need a keeper.

 

 

 

*P.S. - Before I became a Christian, I too struggled with suicide. I gave up such thinking when I "found Jesus" too! But then, years later, I became an apostate and an atheist. And I have not relapsed into depression and have NOT slit MY throat. I am perfectly fine. I figured out that I don't need an invisible friend to give meaning to my life.

 

The Truth™ is NOT deadly people! (However, putting your neck in a noose for foolish beliefs IS deadly!)

[Asuryan]

you don't understand what I'm trying to say - this woman wants to help hauidan by trying in her inexperienced way to show him life eternal

 

And hauidan is trying in his inexperienced way to show her a life full of rationality, self confidence, sensual pleasures, and freedom from superstitions that could severely cut off her free time... her money... her life, maybe, if christians are still killed in china (which I'm not sure of)... her freedom of choice...

 

(which he has already glimpsed and rejected);

 

This is your point of view. But it's not hauidan's or mine.

What makes you think that Hauidan has glimpsed an eternal life?

Of course, if god doesn't exist, there is nothing at all to glimpse and reject, don't you think?

Don't commit the mistake of thinking that we BELIEVE in god but just rebel against him because we're proud or some other foolishness. Atheists don't believe in god - nothing to glimpse, nothing to reject.

 

he in response is attempting to convince her to turn away from this faith - which even if it did nothing else, gives people hope to live by on earth.

 

What is he trying to do to the chinese woman?

I gave you an atheist's (mine) answer to this question of yours. There's much to be gained, by abandoning christianity...

Your sentence about christian faith is, I am sorry to say, rather naive. The word "inquisition" should strike a bell now, doesn't it? And, before you say that the inquisitors weren't true christians to begin with, remember that the Bible itself says that you shouldn't allow a witch to live. Those people, the inquisitors, lived by the Bible. (and Jesus, in the gospels, says he hasn't come to change mosaic law, on the contrary he has come to make the punishments for the sins even worse and harsher than before...).

So it can be said that christian faith doesn't "did nothing else apart from giving people hope to live by on earth". It did lots of things. Two inquisitions in europe (the first one at the beginning of 1300, the second one - spanish inquisition). Witches burning in america too. Crusades. The extermination of the Cathars in the southern france. Conquistadores (the christian authorities said at that time that "the blood of the indios has a sweet smell for god and it is good to kill them for God, because He loves the sacrifice"). Spontaneous jew burnings in russia (well before communism) and all around europe even around the end of 1700. The jesuites enslaving hundreds of thousands of black skinned people to sell them as slaves in america... Lots. Lots of things the Christian Faith did.

I think it's better for the chinese woman to put her trust in herself. To believe in herself. What is better... standing on your own legs, able to walk on your own in the world, or having to rely on the crutch of the christian God while your legs are broken?

It won't be hauidan's speech to deconvert her and heal her legs. The healing, she must do herself. However... he may, at least, initiate the healing process: a word, a question she can't answer or justify that linger into her mind, and maybe, in some years, with the help of her personal intelligence and experiences... (reading the bible, one of them)...

 

This whole attitude makes me think of the maxim "misery loves company."

 

Hmm...

I have a boyfriend that I love very much. We're not married. We're sexually very active and exploring - you wouldn't believe certain things we've tried. I'm happy with him and happy when I'm in his arms.

Christianity says that I shouldn't do such things unless we're married.

The bible also says that I shouldn't eat shrimps and prawns, which I very much like.

The bible also says that I should cover my head (st. Paul says that) with a veil, because if I don't the angels will take offense.

These are only examples.

I don't believe in the bible, meaning, I am *free*. Free to eat shrimps, free to go around with my head uncovered, free to love my boyfriend without marrying him. Where is the misery in that?

It would be much more miserable to have to follow a long list of orders without a sense (poor shrimps... what did they do to deserve such a treatment? ).

I am happy of who I am and what I am today. I have no reason to feel miserable

 

 

Y'all don't believe in a loving God

 

Er... you don't either. Your god isn't loving. And the bible shows it in a lot of different verses and chapters. If you wish to know which ones, just ask, we will answer you in detail.

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

 

 

I have a boyfriend that I love very much. We're not married. We're sexually very active and exploring - you wouldn't believe certain things we've tried. I'm happy with him and happy when I'm in his arms.

Christianity says that I shouldn't do such things unless we're married.

 

 

 

 

I suspect Christianity would say you shouldn't do most of the fun things you two do together, Asuryan, and probably nowhere near as often even for the "OK stuff", either!

 

cheers

[All Gods Fail]

One thing I would consider - the Chinese govt. hasn't exactly become benevolent to 'subversive' beliefs, and they're not above monitoring it's citizens for improper thought. Be sure you don't get this woman (and yourself) mixed up in anything serious. One xtian more or less isn't going to make or break the world.

 

Also, I wonder about deconversion - is it even possible? I think you'd already have to have some serious doubts about your faith before you'd even hear what a non-believer has to say about your god. I think it's better to try and educate, plant those seeds, and let them grow (kinda like xtians try to do). Once it's in their minds, it's there for good, and if reality begins to dawn on them they might remember what you told them about biblegod.

 

Otherwise, you're just shouting down a well.

[Amethyst]

Also, I wonder about deconversion - is it even possible? I think you'd already have to have some serious doubts about your faith before you'd even hear what a non-believer has to say about your god. I think it's better to try and educate, plant those seeds, and let them grow (kinda like xtians try to do). Once it's in their minds, it's there for good, and if reality begins to dawn on them they might remember what you told them about biblegod.

 

Otherwise, you're just shouting down a well.

 

Good point. I would not have deconverted if I hadn't had serious doubts on a long-term basis. But it took me until after I left HS until I had the courage to question it. Had my mother survived her cancer, I'm not sure I would have had the courage to follow my own path. She was very manipulative in her own way.

[Asuryan]

 

I suspect Christianity would say you shouldn't do most of the fun things you two do together, Asuryan, and probably nowhere near as often even for the "OK stuff", either!

 

cheers

 

Yes, christianity is all about NOT having fun. Fun is sinful!

[SkepticOfBible]

 

I suspect Christianity would say you shouldn't do most of the fun things you two do together, Asuryan, and probably nowhere near as often even for the "OK stuff", either!

 

cheers

 

Yes, christianity is all about NOT having fun. Fun is sinful!

 

 

One of the things is what puzzles me is the christian obsession with Sex.

 

Just look at the OT, you pretty much get killed just for having sex or plain losing your virginity. Even sex with your wife is not right.

 

At the end of the day, sex is sinful according to christian theology

[MQTA]

 

I don't believe in the bible, meaning, I am *free*. Free to eat shrimps, free to go around with my head uncovered, free to love my boyfriend without marrying him. Where is the misery in that?

It would be much more miserable to have to follow a long list of orders without a sense (poor shrimps... what did they do to deserve such a treatment? ).

I am happy of who I am and what I am today. I have no reason to feel miserable

 

 

Y'all don't believe in a loving God

 

Er... you don't either. Your god isn't loving. And the bible shows it in a lot of different verses and chapters. If you wish to know which ones, just ask, we will answer you in detail.

 

They didn't have cocktail sauce back then.

[HuaiDan]

Just wanted to say I appreciate the feedback posted from all sides. I don't want to disappoint anyone, but I think we've reached a mutual decision to respect each other's ways and back off. I tried the buddhism angle, but frankly it didn't go anywhere and I don't really know enough about buddhism to pursue it at length. I'm sure she probably knows more about buddhism than I do, being that she's chinese. If I get any interesting feedback from her, I'll be sure to let you guys know.

Nonetheless, I think I handled this whole affair foolishly from the get go. I was all too willing to fly my colors as an apostate when confronted with her evangelism, which was really an over-emotional and zealous thing to do. If I really wanted to make an effective difference in curbing the spread of christianity in the east, I blew a golden opportunity. When she invited me to a chiristmas party, and I'm sure no one here is fooled into thinking that by "christmas party" she didn't mean "evangelical sermon", had I the time I should have played along and attended just to get the scoop on how things are progressing on the christian eastern front. I should have gotten her trust. I could've gotten some real intelligence on global scale evangelism, rather than just show this one woman how zealously ex-christain I am. Maybe it's still not too late, but I don't think this woman will be easily fooled if I suddenly change my colors.

 

Interesting debate on the merit and necessity of exvangelism. Why bother with it? It would be nice to escape to a part of the civilized world where I wouldn't have to worry about preached to about an inane superstition and watch helplessly as those around me fall victim to it. But since I now know I don't have that option, the only other feasible option is to fight back. As long as there's christianity and other evangelical religions, this ain't a live-and-let-live world.

[LloydDobler]

Interesting debate on the merit and necessity of exvangelism. Why bother with it? It would be nice to escape to a part of the civilized world where I wouldn't have to worry about preached to about an inane superstition and watch helplessly as those around me fall victim to it. But since I now know I don't have that option, the only other feasible option is to fight back. As long as there's christianity and other evangelical religions, this ain't a live-and-let-live world.

You know, personally I think it's about the whole 'sharing opinions' really. I mean I share my love for Volvo automobiles to a lot of people when the subject comes up, and my dad is a full fleged Volvangelist. He literally believes they are the greatest car in the world. It's also good for his business, as he's an independent used Volvo dealer.

 

You can be evangelistic about anything. It's just how people are. To me, it's not right or wrong. Do it if you want to, or don't if you don't.

[HuaiDan]

Yeah, but there's nothing inherent about Volvos that put the task upon Volvo owners to tell non-Volvo owners they must convert to Volvoism or suffer an eternity in GM hell. Volvo owners (I think) don't harbor a secret desire to see the non-Volvo owners suffer that fate. On the other hand, christians don't feel it's a matter of opinion that non-christians are merely different. To them, non-christians, or even christians of other denomonations, are hell-bound, and it is their god-assigned DUTY to save these poor bastards from eternal torment, lest they themselves be damned in the eyes of god for not doing everything they can towards that cause.

[LloydDobler]

Yeah, but there's nothing inherent about Volvos that put the task upon Volvo owners to tell non-Volvo owners they must convert to Volvoism or suffer an eternity in GM hell. Volvo owners (I think) don't harbor a secret desire to see the non-Volvo owners suffer that fate. On the other hand, christians don't feel it's a matter of opinion that non-christians are merely different. To them, non-christians, or even christians of other denomonations, are hell-bound, and it is their god-assigned DUTY to save these poor bastards from eternal torment, lest they themselves be damned in the eyes of god for not doing everything they can towards that cause.

And yet the vast majority of christians that I've known over my life prefer to evangelize through living a clean and ethical life, without any direct discussion of religion at all.

 

My point was addressing the merit and necessity you were talking about. It's not necessary to ever shove any opinion onto other people, some do and some don't. My Volvo example was just to point out that people's motivations are entirely their own.

 

In other words, if you feel like it, do it. If you don't, don't.