Any Spiritual Atheists

[wanderinstar]

Since my deconversion sixteen months ago my search for truth has led me to atheism, yet I still sense what I can only call a deep spiritual connection with life and the universe(s). I guess I am kind of a pantheist but I don't like to use the word god. I don't believe there is a separate spiritual entity outside the universe, so I am not a deist and I definitely don't see any evidence for interventionist personal gods. I don't pray, but I do meditate and get a lot out of it. Basically I feel deep awe and wonder at my life and the universe around me, and the connection I feel is profound. SOmetimes I think I might be more pagan - can you be a pagan atheist? I am considering joining a local atheist group but I don't want to go if I don't fit in. 

 

Does this mean I am not an atheist, or can there be such a thing as a spiritual atheist? Just throwing the idea out there to get some ideas to help me on my journey. THANKS

[Deva]

Yes, there are many Buddhists who I think would fit into this category.  Spirituality and atheism are not incompatible. Atheism just denies the existence of a God or Gods. The existence or non-existence of Gods is not really important in Buddhism.

 

Most atheist groups that are labelled as such would probably take a humanist or scientific materialist position that I don't personally find compatible with spirituality. However, that's just my experience. This is not meant  to discourage you from going to the meeting. By all means go and see what happens.

 

You might want to look through some more of  the posts in this section of the forum.

[Ravenstar]

I'm a pagan atheist (but a material agnostic) it's kind of confusing. My logical side insists on hard evidence, but I also sense a larger picture than the one we get from pure materialism. Whether that's just psychological, I don't know.. but I reserve judgement because of my personal experiences - though I remain a skeptic in all matters, especially my own perceptions. I'm also sure that science will provide more answers as time goes on.

 

I find freedom in being able to say "I don't know". An anthropomorphic god? No... something? Maybe.

 

However I am in deep awe of nature, have studied sacred geometry, archetypes, symbology and such, and find it very provocative. When it comes down to it I get great benefit from aligning myself with the natures rhythms and cycles and also from meditation, if that's spirituality then okay, but I don't really need to label it anymore...or make it more than it is. I don't need the 'woo'.

[Guest MadameX]

I am totally spiritual. Also totally a non-believer in gods. It's hard to label, I won't even try it anymore. Words are simply approximations for our thoughts, and our thoughts are our merely perceptions of reality (not to be mistaken for the real thing). So I don't worry too much about labels. Read my statement in my profile if you want :-)

 

Throwing you some encouragement, which you may need as some feel a need to argue and criticize others' self concept and what they have settled on as a label in attempt to define the complexity that you are, that we all are.

 

All the best!

[MerryG]

There's not the slightest contradiction between being spiritual and being an atheist. One is an emotional state; the other a rational conclusion.

 

I rather envy those of you who manage to find satisfying spirituality after religion. After deconverting, I spent years exploring things like Theravada (sp?) Buddhism, Taoism, and various flavors of neopaganism, as well as meditation and other spiritual practices. But ultimately there seemed to be "no there there" for me in any religious practice.

 

I still feel spiritual longing. But thanks to distrust borne of having been raised with christian lies and manipulation, I automatically treat all of the above with too much skepticism to allow myself to let go and dive into spiritual depths.

[mymistake]

The person to ask about this is Antlerman.  I haven't seen him on recently.  But whether you agree or disagree with him his answers are always thought provoking.  I suppose you can go through some of his older posts.

[wanderinstar]

Thanks everyone, lots of food for thought. It is good to see I am not alone in considering myself spiritual while also leaning towards atheism. I am just trying to find some like minded people to mix with and the closest is atheist and humanist societies. All but one of my current friends are christian so I really need to expand my horizons. There are a couple in the city I live in so I am considering going along to a meet-up soon. I don't mind if most are materialists but I am hoping to find some more spiritual leaning types, or at least people who are not going to mock me for being open to the more mystical side of the universe. 

[xliar]

Hey Wanderinstar, I would describe myself as a born-again atheist who is still a little bit in the closet, and not because I'm still undecided about my non-belief. Nothing could be clearer to me. I am completely disenfranchised with god and religion. But, I'm willing to let myself wonder and perhaps remain open about the possibility of spiritual connections even though I feel unmotivated to seek any. The reason I aint slammed the door on that as well is, there has been more evidence of it's existence to me personaly, and the evidence I refer to is more confusing than convincing. Anyway, I've had a number of conversations with friends, some very close, and I might add, they are believers, and they have described very similar events at a loved one's death bed during the final moments. Some of their last words would be with, or to a child they buried, or a spouse that preceded them. I don't know what to make of it but I have every reason to believe it happened.

[Eugene39]

One of the best books that exists is "The Little Book of Atheist Spirituality" by Andre Comte-Sponville. It's very good for helping a person with the deprogramming process and helping you get a foundation for your own spiritual journey.

[wanderinstar]

Thanks for the book tips - I will look into them. I am going to my first meet-up with a large group of free thinkers on the 17th November and have also joined a 'recovering from religion' group which only has 10 members but should be helpful. Hopefully between the two I will find some people I can connect with. Having almost only christian friends has been really tough, and lonely - except for you guys of course. Having everyone on this website to talk too has been a lifesaver, but i really need some flesh and blood people too. 

[Antlerman]

Since my deconversion sixteen months ago my search for truth has led me to atheism, yet I still sense what I can only call a deep spiritual connection with life and the universe(s). I guess I am kind of a pantheist but I don't like to use the word god. I don't believe there is a separate spiritual entity outside the universe, so I am not a deist and I definitely don't see any evidence for interventionist personal gods. I don't pray, but I do meditate and get a lot out of it. Basically I feel deep awe and wonder at my life and the universe around me, and the connection I feel is profound. SOmetimes I think I might be more pagan - can you be a pagan atheist? I am considering joining a local atheist group but I don't want to go if I don't fit in.

Greetings. I see someone mentioned my name in this thread. I guess I should offer my thoughts.

 

Oh, I completely relate to where you are at. I struggled with this for a long time identifying myself as an atheist, and yet having this spiritual connection to what I used to hang on the symbol "God". I felt somewhat of a hypocrite for still embracing this, while denying this God I used to imagine. I called myself a spiritual atheist for sometime, but have just dropped the atheist bit altogether now. No need for it. What atheism was for me was not to deny "God", but to reject a mythic-literal portrait of deity, the guy-in-the-sky model of some literal judge of humanity and the condition of my living room. In short, the wholly externalized form of theistic deity.

 

I too practice meditation, about an hour each day, and the question of the existence of "God" is really a moot question. Of course there is that which can be called "God", but understanding the nature of this in how it relates to the mind and spirit is the ongoing journey. Any mental image we have of this Absolute, is just that. A mental image. These images can be useful when approached symbolically to evoke a realization, an apprehension of the spiritual within us. And that is key. It is not that this "God" is some entity existing wholly outside the universe, nor one that is ultimately even distinct from ourselves, but that the nature of who we are IS that which is both within us, within all that is, and beyond all that is. Gods are simply the faces we put upon that, to come to know that within ourselves. And upon knowing that, then God is not.

 

It is not however necessary or required by any means that one holds to deity forms in this, as there are many paths to that same realization. But understanding the function of them on a spiritual and psychological level is helpful to recognize what is at work within those who do hold them literally. There is a quote I like to share that I think will help illuminate what I am saying.

 

"But this is not God as an ontological other, set apart from the cosmos, from humans, and from creation at large. Rather, it is God as an archetypal summit of one's own Consciousness. ... By visualizing that identification 'we actually do become the deity. The subject is identified with the object of faith. The worship, the worshiper, and the worshiped, those three are not separate'. At its peak, the soul becomes one, literally one, with the deity-form, with the dhyani-buddha, with (choose whatever term one prefers) God. One dissolves into Deity, as Deity - that Deity which, from the beginning, has been one's own Self or highest Archetype."

 

 

~Ken Wilber, Eye to Eye, pg. 85

But I totally understand the need to not come close to this for many coming out of a dogmatic literalism. Part of the process is to differentiate from anything resembling that past understanding, because we don't yet feel strong enough in ourselves to try to redeem whatever baby there was in that bathwater of myth. Or, the symbol itself never connected. That really becomes a matter of self-discovery to find what works. For me now, I very loosely would identify myself as an "evolutionary panenthiest." But that is when I find it useful to envision Spirit, in a 2nd person perspective. Others connect through 3rd person perspective, such as nature mysticism, or a 1st person perspective such as is realized in causal states in meditation. More of interest for you to read would be these "three faces of spirit" understanding. I think it will be helpful to you. http://www.kenwilber.com/blog/show/462

 

Does this mean I am not an atheist, or can there be such a thing as a spiritual atheist? Just throwing the idea out there to get some ideas to help me on my journey. THANKS

I found the term atheist for myself to be useful as a transition, but not an identity. Atheism for me really means one thing, "not the mythic-version of the Christian God". So in this sense I am an atheist. But in that sense only. Plus, I also find walking around continuing to identify myself as "divorced", puts too much focus on my past. No, I'm single. I'm seeking. And that language speaks much more to the truth of who I am.

[wanderinstar]

 

Antlerman said;

" Plus, I also find walking around continuing to identify myself as "divorced", puts too much focus on my past. No, I'm single. I'm seeking. And that language speaks much more to the truth of who I am."

 

Thanks Antlerman. That was all very helpful, especially that last bit. After leaving christianity I have been very hesitant to accept any spiritual labels as I don't want to box myself in. Yet I also have a strong desire to declare what I am not so the term atheist is helpful in that way. What I feel I am, and connect to, is indescribable but of course times do arise when there is a need to describe and this is when I use the term 'spiritual atheist'. or 'pantheist'. In the end, to quote 'god', 'I am who I am'. 

 

edit: sorry guys, I messed up the quote

[TheBluegrassSkeptic]

There's not the slightest contradiction between being spiritual and being an atheist. One is an emotional state; the other a rational conclusion.

 

I rather envy those of you who manage to find satisfying spirituality after religion. After deconverting, I spent years exploring things like Theravada (sp?) Buddhism, Taoism, and various flavors of neopaganism, as well as meditation and other spiritual practices. But ultimately there seemed to be "no there there" for me in any religious practice.

 

I still feel spiritual longing. But thanks to distrust borne of having been raised with christian lies and manipulation, I automatically treat all of the above with too much skepticism to allow myself to let go and dive into spiritual depths.

Man, I really resonate with what you are saying here. When I deconverted I checked into Wicca, Native American practices, even Mongolian shamanism (yeah, from the Middle Ages).  Ultimately, I found peace in moments and places. Whether it be that perfect smell of approaching snow and spicy rotting leaves on the ground hitting me in the face when I leave the house, or enjoying an unusually luke warm breeze on naked shoulders. In those moments, I have trained myself to pause, and just absorb it. Opening my mind to all kinds of thoughts and feelings and connecting further with my inner thoughts and emotions in those moments.

 

Since there isn't just one definition of spirituality, I try to not go into too much depth as to which version I prefer. I just call it calm and roll with it. I don't sense a higher power or even remotely think that. I revel in myself as I am, connecting past experiences with the current and find self-analysis comes of it.

[Antlerman]

If you do indeed still seek things, be careful. Don't believe everything, and if something doesn't sit right, get out of there (especially if they say things like "Abandon what you like in life.").

I think the real key to this advise boils down to this: don't look to others to give you answers. There is nothing wrong in speaking with others, looking for some advise or guidance for you, but it is ultimately you that is seeking to find what works for you. People tend to bring with them this notion of the spiritual, or God, as some sort of external rule set that has hidden keys to get it to work. You have to put in the right combination of coinage to get the machine to work for you. They see the whole thing outside themselves, and thus look for other "experts" to tell them how to work that "force" to get it to perform for them. At which point, they become susceptible to control of others, either intentionally by the teachers or not, and they lose their own self-identities in it. Abandoning ourselves to a system will never yield true self-knowledge, and in fact takes us away from it. Some throw themselves into the system in order to avoid looking within. They started the whole search on the wrong foot, looking outside themselves.

 

I wanted to throw something in here that may be helpful to people concerning the question, "what is spiritual". What the spiritual is, is that which relates to that which is of ultimate concern. It is distinct from a emotional feeling in that it engages us at the deepest and highest levels of our being. There may be emotional responses to an engagement at the spiritual level, just as there may be bodily responses: breathing rates change, heart beat changes, thoughts change, etc. But the spiritual is not defined by or as the emotion itself. Nor the mind's image that is evoked, such as a vision of God even, or that of radiant beauty emanating from everything. Of course the mind and emotion and body are engaged, because we are all these things too. We are simply opening to that part of ourselves in the spiritual engagement. It is not something removed from us. The pursuit arises from within us to engage with that of ultimate concern to us, beyond the 'ordinary'.

 

And if it is something within all of us, then to look to others for Answers on that level, is to begin the search looking everywhere but within. The journey, the path, really is discovering our true Self through a series of awakenings and unfolding of what is already there within us. Others can offer insights they have gained on their own path, or even from within established traditions, but the work will be individual. Basic guidelines are useful, but not the magic key. We each hold our own keys to ourselves. And with this approach, you are not vulnerable to others "telling you" this is truth or that is truth. You take responsibility for your own development, to finding that Truth within you.

 

In all honesty, as I've said I've seen atheism as transitional step in the right direction, in that it begins with taking responsibility for ourselves by saying "no" to being dominating. It is saying "no" to continuing to look to others to tell us Answers. And the danger of course, is that that sort of looking can be carried over into atheism too, where you look for Answers in science, for instance. The same problem is just carried forward. But if we take responsibility for our own self-discovery, then we will utilize whatever tools avail themselves towards that goal of self-realization for ourselves. We can only ultimately judge for ourselves what we are comfortable with or not, but the focus should always be unfolding ourselves, not looking for Answers outside ourselves. The pursuit is self-knowledge on the deepest levels, those of ultimate concern. And that, is the spiritual.

[Joshpantera]

You're on the right course trying to see an atheist, that is, lack of God belief type of spirituality. It's simply pantheism - a spiritual feeling towards the natural universe. It can take on the form of natural pantheism or panentheism, but it's all more or less a blanket pan which involves a non-supernatural oriented sense of spirituality. The panentheistic view can either be fully natural or conceived of as supernatural as we've touched on in the past. But for the sake of atheist spirituality it seems that we're only concerned with the naturalistic flavors of spiritual thought. I've seen people toss around the spiritual atheist term and it usually comes from having a pantheist leaning and trying to figure out how to express it.

 

I've found that non-supernatural based spiritual feelings are compatible or at least tolerated in most atheist circles. I generally frequent atheist dominant boards as an outspoken pantheist and don't really catch any grief over it. The atheists, hard line or otherwise, don't generally care about spiritual feelings as long as they don't cross over from the natural world to projections of supernatural woo. I remember this one apologist on a board here in FL bitching and moaning at the atheists because they'd crucify his every spiritual assertion and let pretty much anything I said pass unchallenged. That really burned his ass. But that's only because I made it a point of clarify that I'm not a supernaturalist, merely a pantheistic naturalist. There's no harm in my spiritual assertions.

 

We are at one with and an interconnected aspect of the natural cosmos -  fact of science, but at the same time a very spiritual realization in a naturalist way. 

 

That deep inward journey is that of a journey into the natural fact of who and what we all are. Allan Watt's made a brilliant statement in his Out of Mind series something to the affect of: 'What you are, basically, deep, deep down, far, far in - is simply the fabric and structure of existence itself....'

 

The macro and micro are an interconnected unity, an broken and undivided whole. We are the whole, not just the part. That's spiritual awakening in a nut shell. The sankrit term suggests "tat tvam asi," thou art that.

 

What?

 

What else?

 

We are essentially that which we seek to know when seeking to the know the question of absolute ultimates and or seeking to know the God of any religion. Whatever existence as a whole is, we are that. It's not about something "other." It's about what naturally exists and our connection to that. All of the deeply spiritual insights available to human comprehension tend to become more and more atheistic, that is, lacking belief in the existence of literal Gods conceived of as out there and other.

 

As Antlerman suggested above, going atheist can essentially work as a stepping stone to an even more spiritual path in the long run, a completely naturalistic and atheistic oriented spiritual path free and clear of supernatural imagery and woo but very spiritual all the same.... 

[Deva]

There's not the slightest contradiction between being spiritual and being an atheist. One is an emotional state; the other a rational conclusion.

 

I rather envy those of you who manage to find satisfying spirituality after religion. After deconverting, I spent years exploring things like Theravada (sp?) Buddhism, Taoism, and various flavors of neopaganism, as well as meditation and other spiritual practices. But ultimately there seemed to be "no there there" for me in any religious practice.

 

I still feel spiritual longing. But thanks to distrust borne of having been raised with christian lies and manipulation, I automatically treat all of the above with too much skepticism to allow myself to let go and dive into spiritual depths.

 

I relate so much to this.  No matter how hard I try to enter into the practice of the different paths, I simply cannot sustain it.  It seems that having thrown one system overboard, the others go too.  Its part of the process of freeing oneself from a religious system.  A huge hole is left and I have been trying to fill it.

 

Although I have had my moments with Buddhism, I find it impossible to be a "Buddhist". Even if I agree with it philosophically and find it aesthetically attractive, it is always going to be someone else's religion, not mine. There is also that element of religious authority that is unchanged from Christianity, and in fact it even goes further in Tibetan Buddhism. It is very distasteful to me.  I don't think the system with lamas as "precious teachers" translates well to the West.  It just comes off looking like a personality cult, especially when you have someone talking about a lama as their "father." I have waffled back and forth with this, but Ugh. I have pretty much had enough.

 

Any real spiritual teacher will just say go on and do what you have been doing anyway.

[Antlerman]

We are essentially that which we seek to know when seeking to the know the question of absolute ultimates and or seeking to know the God of any religion. Whatever existence as a whole is, we are that. It's not about something "other." It's about what naturally exists and our connection to that. All of the deeply spiritual insights available to human comprehension tend to become more and more atheistic, that is, lacking belief in the existence of literal Gods conceived of as out there and other.

I agree with what you are saying, but I tend to hear you wish to confine this to atheistic understanding, ultimately. I think the problem is that at such an ultimate view, the term theist or atheist is irrelevant. It isn't that at Enlightenment, you will be an atheist. But any definition at all is moot.

 

I think if you look at the Upanishads and the Vedas they have plenty of insight into the Divine, but it is wrapped in so-called, supernatural language. I think I prefer to say rather than they are "supernatural" in the sense that a modern atheist would attack as "woo", they are symbolically indicative of truth that the eye of mind or reason cannot penetrate. A reality that is not a matter of scientific investigation using the eyes of the five senses. The mistake is the rationalistic, atheistic mind sees such symbolism when referred to or "believed in", as to be irrational. It wishes everything to fit a "naturalistic" reality, which means one which can in fact be penetrated and understood rationally. It defines the limits of what acceptable spirituality is, one that has "realism" as its ground, and defines this as what is ultimately rational. It's fine to play with myths, so long as at the end of the day its "naturalistic". The problem is that starts with the reasoning mind, and ends right back up with it. It limits what is acceptable to its terms, as if it sits at the peak of all modes of knowing.

 

In regards to this, I have another favorite quote I like to pull from that speaks to exactly this point. I think it adds to this discussion. From the great Eastern philosopher and mystic Sri Aurobindo,

It is necessary, therefore, that advancing Knowledge should base herself on a clear, pure and disciplined intellect. It is necessary, too, that she should correct her errors sometimes by a return to the restraint of sensible fact, the concrete realities of the physical world. The touch of Earth is always reinvigorating to the son of Earth, even when he seeks a supraphysical Knowledge. It may even be said that the supraphysical can only be really mastered in its fullness – to its heights we can always search– when we keep our feet firmly on the physical. “Earth is His footing,” says the Upanishads whenever it imagines the Self that manifests in the universe. And it is certainly the fact the wider we extend and the surer we make our knowledge of the physical world, the wider and surer becomes our foundation for the higher knowledge, even for the highest, even for the Brahmavidya.

 

In emerging, therefore, out of the materialistic period of human Knowledge we must be careful that we do not rashly condemn what we are leaving or throw away even one tittle of its gains, before we can summon perceptions and powers that are well grasped and secure, to occupy their place. Rather we shall observe with respect and wonder the work that Atheism had done for the Divine and admire the services that Agnosticism has rendered in preparing the illimitable increase of knowledge. In our world error is continually the handmaid and pathfinder of Truth; for error is really a half-truth that stumbles because of its limitations; often it is Truth that wears a disguise in order to arrive unobserved near to its goal. Well, if it could always be, as it has been in the great period we are leaving, the faithful handmaid, severe, conscientious, clean-handed, luminous within its limits, a half-truth and not a reckless and presumptuous aberration.

 

~Sri Aurobindo, The Life Divine, pg 12,13

 

As you see here, Aurobindo makes a distinction between atheism and what transcends it, "the Divine". He rightly does not reduce "the Divine" to an atheistic, naturalistic understanding. It transcends a "naturalist" understanding, while at the same time is compatible with one.

 

As Antlerman suggested above, going atheist can essentially work as a stepping stone to an even more spiritual path in the long run, a completely naturalistic and atheistic oriented spiritual path free and clear of supernatural imagery and woo but very spiritual all the same....

I don't suggest that how we end up is atheistically oriented. Again, those terms are moot and a hindrance to try to make it "compatible" with that understanding. It has the feel of the new "orthodoxy" of religious or spiritual boundaries, one which the board of atheist advisers deems acceptable because it is naturalistic, or a type of "sexed up atheism". I reject that wholly. That will stand in the way of advancing if we place a cap of understanding on it. And for reference, panentheism is not the same as pantheism and it does include the so-called supernatural. In a panentheistic view, God is both wholly transcendent to the natural universe, while at the same time, paradoxically, wholly immanent within it. It merges in a paradox, the supernatural and the natural.

[themonkeyman]

Hey,

 

I am finding people around me and my self that I am increasingly becoming more Spiritualist.  When I spoke to my Mother about God and Religion she says that she prays to her Mother (My Grandmother) not to God and not to Jesus.  She says that things always work out when she prays to them.

 

Being completely honest There is so much in this world that cannot be explained by science but I am definitely a strong believer that there might well be some sort of Higher Power that we all ascend to.

 

Call me a Stargate Buff I kinda believe in Einstein that energy cannot be created or removed only transferred so where do I actually Go?!

[Fweethawt]

All of this reeks like bullshit to me.

 

Carry on...

[Deva]

Please refrain from snide comments in this section of the forum in keeping with the rules.

[Joshpantera]

I don't suggest that how we end up is atheistically oriented. Again, those terms are moot and a hindrance to try to make it "compatible" with that understanding. It has the feel of the new "orthodoxy" of religious or spiritual boundaries, one which the board of atheist advisers deems acceptable because it is naturalistic, or a type of "sexed up atheism". I reject that wholly. That will stand in the way of advancing if we place a cap of understanding on it. And for reference, panentheism is not the same as pantheism and it does include the so-called supernatural. In a panentheistic view, God is both wholly transcendent to the natural universe, while at the same time, paradoxically, wholly immanent within it. It merges in a paradox, the supernatural and the natural. 

 

The newer way of looking at it removes the paradox though. In a multiverse scenario there's only more of the natural beyond the visible natural universe, an eternal natural multiverse realm going on forever without end - the natural realm existing eternally and any possible dimension is  nothing more than more of the natural. That's a type of panentheistic outlook completely free of supernatural assertion explaining both the transcendent and immanent as entirely natural and removing any previously conceived paradox. And that type of panentheism is nothing more than and extended view of natural pantheism applied to only the local, immediate observable universe.

 

And in any case I'd say these pan beliefs are all closely connected because they're all based on the basic idea of interconnection applied in different directions. In this case people in the past have applied panentheism in supernatural directions but with modern cosmological insight and vision it's entirely possible to see a panentheism applied to completely natural directions, such as the above. 

 

I think that any one who gets to the point of understanding that mythological religious symbols are simply metaphorical and allegorical and that God is basically a metaphor for the mystery of the existence of mere existence itself, would generally also understand that belief in the existence of the supernatural in a literal sense is a misunderstanding of mythological religious symbolism. This would seem to lead towards a lack of conventional God belief, or quite simply atheism defined. A spiritual type of atheist nevertheless. A lover of nature and cosmos feeling deep connection and interconnectivity but not at all a 'believer' in the existence of God(s).