Jephthah

[Justin]

In Judges chapters 10-12 we have the story of Jephthah, you know, the guy who promised god to sacrifice the first thing that came out of his house to great him upon his return from battle if god delivered him victorious in said battle. His daughter comes out and he makes good on his word to god and offers her as a burnt offering.

 

My question is did he actually kill her as many think, or did he merely offer her to god to go away and spend her entire life in service to god? Judges says she goes off and bewails her virginity for a month before her father follows through with it and some think this means she went out to mourn the fact that she will forever remain a virgin since she is going to serve god the rest of her life.

 

Thoughts.

[sdelsolray]

In Judges chapters 10-12 we have the story of Jephthah, you know, the guy you promised to god to sacrifice the first thing that came out of his house to great him upon his return from battle if god delivered him victorious in said battle. His daughter comes out and he makes good on his word to god and offers her as a burnt offering.

 

My question is did he actually kill her as many think, or did he merely offer her to god to go away and spend her entire life in service to god? Judges says she goes off and bewails her virginity for a month before her father follows through with it and some think this means she went out to mourn the fact that she will forever remain a virgin since she is going to serve god the rest of her life.

 

Thoughts.

Did Arwyn have sex with Aragorn before Aragorn was crowned King of Gondor?

 

Fiction is fiction.

[Justin]

By that logic half the shit we talk about on here is a waste of time. You have 344 examples to your credit.

[duderonomy]

Justin,

 

It seems to me the answer is plainly there. Verse 31...vowed as a burnt offering the first thing that came out of the house. Verse 39...he did as he had vowed.

 

It seems all of the wailing in between was because she was a virgin; that is, no grandkids for the old man because she was an only child.

 

Yeah, fiction or not, the story says he burnt his daughter to a crisp. Toast. Limbs burning off and falling into the fire. The smell of burning flesh that is so pleasing to God's nostrils.

 

Don't worry though, I'm sure she didn't feel anything. They must have gathered some priests and said some words and prayers and cut her throat first so she could bleed out. After all, they weren't like the godless savages in those other tribes around them, praise God! 

[mymistake]

 

In Judges chapters 10-12 we have the story of Jephthah, you know, the guy you promised to god to sacrifice the first thing that came out of his house to great him upon his return from battle if god delivered him victorious in said battle. His daughter comes out and he makes good on his word to god and offers her as a burnt offering.

 

My question is did he actually kill her as many think, or did he merely offer her to god to go away and spend her entire life in service to god? Judges says she goes off and bewails her virginity for a month before her father follows through with it and some think this means she went out to mourn the fact that she will forever remain a virgin since she is going to serve god the rest of her life.

 

Thoughts.

Did Arwyn have sex with Aragorn before Aragorn was crowned King of Gondor?

 

Fiction is fiction.

 

 

 

Fiction is fiction.  However the items that appear in that fiction say something about the author and about the audience that found it appealing.  We can go through the Old Testament and draw the conclusion that the people who owned this myth saw their god(s) as being powerful and demanding respect rather than being loving.  It's still fiction but the fiction means something.

 

(Besides having devoted most of my life to Bible study there isn't anything else I can do with my Bible knowledge outside of the religion)

[Justin]

Justin,

 

It seems to me the answer is plainly there. Verse 31...vowed as a burnt offering the first thing that came out of the house. Verse 39...he did as he had vowed.

 

It seems all of the wailing in between was because she was a virgin; that is, no grandkids for the old man because she was an only child.

 

Yeah, fiction or not, the story says he burnt his daughter to a crisp. Toast. Limbs burning off and falling into the fire. The smell of burning flesh that is so pleasing to God's nostrils.

 

Don't worry though, I'm sure she didn't feel anything. They must have gathered some priests and said some words and prayers and cut her throat first so she could bleed out. After all, they weren't like the godless savages in those other tribes around them, praise God! 

 

I know what it looks like on the face of it, but it could be like what Hannah did with her son.

 

 

Third, Jephthah’s action may best be understood by recognizing that he was using ‘olah in a figurative sense. We use the term “sacrifice” in a similar fashion when we say, “I’ll sacrifice a few dollars for that charity.” Jephthah was offering to sacrifice a member of his extended household to permanent, religious service associated with the Tabernacle. The Bible indicates that such non-priestly service was available, particularly to women who chose to so dedicate themselves (e.g., Exodus 38:8). [sadly, Eli’s sons were guilty of taking sexual liberties with them (1 Samuel 2:22).] Even in the first century, Anna must have been one woman who had dedicated herself to the Lord’s service, since she “did not depart from the temple” (Luke 2:37).

Several contextual indicators support this conclusion. First, the two-month period of mourning that Jephthah granted to his daughter was not for the purpose of grieving over her impending loss of life, but over the fact that she would never be able to marry. She bewailed her virginity (bethulim)—not her death (11:37). Second, the text goes out of its way to state that Jephthah had no other children: “he was his only child. Besides her he had neither son nor daughter” (11:34). For his daughter to be consigned to perpetual celibacy meant the extinction of Jephthah’s family line—an extremely serious and tragic matter to an Israelite (cf. Numbers 27:1-11; 36:1ff.). Third, the sacrifice is treated as unfortunate—again, not because of any concern over her death, but because she would not become a mother. After stating that Jephthah “did with her according to his vow which he had vowed,” the inspired writer immediately adds, “and knew no man” (11:39). This statement would be a completely superfluous and callous remark if she had been put to death. Fourth, the declaration of Jephthah’s own sorrow (11:35) follows immediately after we are informed that he had no other children (11:34). Jephthah was not upset because his daughter would die a virgin. He was upset because she would live and remain a virgin.

Hannah made a similar sacrifice when she turned her son over to the priestly direction of Eli for the rest of his life (1 Samuel 1:11). How many are willing to make such sacrifices? Actually, however, these tremendous acts of devotion were no greater than that which God requires of all Christians: to offer ourselves as spiritual burnt-offerings in service to God (Romans 12:1).

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=6&article=1273

 

I mean it can go either way i think.

[duderonomy]

With the right apologetics, and in the Original Greek (or Hebrew or whatever), The Flying Spaghetti Monster is really Herod the Great.

 

I don't buy that it could go either way. . The Good Book says what it says.    Vow. Burnt offering.

 

Why do you ask?  

[Justin]

With the right apologetics, and in the Original Greek (or Hebrew or whatever), The Flying Spaghetti Monster is really Herod the Great.

 

I don't buy that it could go either way. . The Good Book says what it says.    Vow. Burnt offering.

 

Why do you ask?  

 

Actually, like with so much else in the Bible, it isn't clear. It never flat out says he killed her, and the line “and knew no man” does not jive with killing her.

 

Because i had never come across this other explanation before. I'm not saying this proves the Bible or anything like that, far from it.

[mymistake]

 

With the right apologetics, and in the Original Greek (or Hebrew or whatever), The Flying Spaghetti Monster is really Herod the Great.

 

I don't buy that it could go either way. . The Good Book says what it says.    Vow. Burnt offering.

 

Why do you ask?  

 

Actually, like with so much else in the Bible, it isn't clear. It never flat out says he killed her, and the line “and knew no man” does not jive with killing her.

 

 

 

If she had known a man then she would belong to that man.  The father can't sacrifice an impure girl or a woman who belongs to another man.  If it doesn't belong to you then you would be stealing. 

[duderonomy]

 

With the right apologetics, and in the Original Greek (or Hebrew or whatever), The Flying Spaghetti Monster is really Herod the Great.

 

I don't buy that it could go either way. . The Good Book says what it says.    Vow. Burnt offering.

 

Why do you ask?  

 

Actually, like with so much else in the Bible, it isn't clear. It never flat out says he killed her, and the line “and knew no man” does not jive with killing her.

 

Because i had never come across this other explanation before. I'm not saying this proves the Bible or anything like that, far from it.

 

 

OK, but the way I read it is that, like I said, she was killed and burnt (I assume, because why take a chance on incurring the wrath of God) to a crisp. All of the stuff in the Bible, whether it is fiction or not, really does mean what it says plainly.

How many people read Moby Dick and picture a British racing green whale?

 

 

 

It was when I read the Bible without footnotes, cross-references or the opinions of preachers or their books about the Bible that I lost my faith. While that isn't related directly to this 'passage', it is about the idea in general.

 

The Bible says what it says, in any translation, and in any language. It either means what it says, or it doesn't, and we have to take it or leave it.

 

You don't think that a girl, having known no man, would be killed and sacrificed by fire to her dad's God? Have you read in the Bible the book of Judges, chapters ten through twelve?

[duderonomy]

By that logic half the shit we talk about on here is a waste of time. You have 344 examples to your credit.

 

Oh, and for someone that ends their premise with...

 

 

"Thoughts."   

 

 

Have you read sdelsolray's other 343 other posts? I haven't read all of yours, so who am I to judge and all, but still.

 

Do you know what a waste of time is in the Lion's Den or in Ex-C?

 

 

 

 

 

Discuss.

[rach]

 Cain brought the fruit offering, Abel brought the blood.  Which one pissed Yahweh off?  The way the story reads to me...there was bloodshed

[Ravenstar]

Of all the stories of the Bible this one could actually be true.(except the part where god actually helps Jephthath to win his little war) Read the WAY that sacrifices had to be prepared - THAT is what he did to his daughter. Although it's downplayed it's pretty obvious that the early Hebrews made human sacrifices (along with their neighbours, it was a common practice).

 

Christians really like to whitewash this aspect of the OT, but there are several passages that support human sacrifice.. crap the entire religion is about sacrificing your firstborn.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Dave Miller, Ph.D., in the link you provided in #6, Justin, is doing the usual Christian apologetic spin.  Lawyer for God.

[mymistake]

Dave Miller, Ph.D., in the link you provided in #6, Justin, is doing the usual Christian apologetic spin.  Lawyer for God.

 

Some of us have had decades of brainwashing.  It takes time to get past that. 

 

Exodus 13

 

Mixed in among the propaganda about a story that never happened (aren't you grateful for all the things God never did for your grandfathers?) there are these gems:

 

"² Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is mine."

 

"¹² That thou shalt set apart unto the Lord all that openeth the matrix, and every firstling that cometh of a beast which thou hast; the males shall be the Lord's."

 

"¹³ And every firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb; and if thou wilt not redeem it, then thou shalt break his neck: and all the firstborn of man among thy children shalt thou redeem."

 

So you had to pay the priest a sum of money or else they killed your first born son as a burnt offering to God.  This is not the rule of a God who detests human sacrifice.  However it sounds like a great rule for priests who love money.

 

 

And in Deut 13 we burn entire cities for God.  Isn't that a burnt offering?

 

¹⁵ Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

¹⁶ And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the Lord thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.

[WarriorPoet]

I agree with most people here.  It does read on first impression that Jepthah killed her.

 

Sure, there is a way the words can be spun to make this story less atrocious, but if you have to go through those types of hoops to justify it, it isn't worth justifying.  I always follow Occam's razor when reading the bible, the simplest solution is usually correct.

 

I also immediately discount any argument about the original language.  First, we don't have the actual original manuscripts of any biblical texts.  Also there is that pesky 2 Timothy 3:16, "ALL scripture is god breathed..." This, if true, should apply to all translations and different versions of the bible.  What type of omniscient and omnipotent being would let the only message for his followers to be corrupted by fallible man?

 

Imho the fact that apolegetics needs to exist is the most damning evidence against the validity of the bible.  If an almighty god wants to provide his creation with a book that explains his nature and plan of salvation, and that book is not written in a way that is perfect and easy to understand, then that god is at best apathetic and definately not worthy of his title.

[centauri]

I know what it looks like on the face of it, but it could be like what Hannah did with her son.

Third, Jephthah’s action may best be understood by recognizing that he was using ‘olah in a figurative sense. We use the term “sacrifice” in a similar fashion when we say, “I’ll sacrifice a few dollars for that charity.” Jephthah was offering to sacrifice a member of his extended household to permanent, religious service associated with the Tabernacle.

 

Only a figurative sense of the word sacrifice?

That's not a strong apologetic when the specific phrase "burnt offering" is used.

 

Keeping vows is extremely important to God.

Being devoted to the Lord (regulations):

Lev 27:28-29(ESV)

“But no devoted thing that a man devotes to the Lord, of anything that he has, whether man or beast, or of his inherited field, shall be sold or redeemed; every devoted thing is most holy to the Lord.

No one devoted, who is to be devoted for destruction from mankind, shall be ransomed; he shall surely be put to death."

 

The Bible indicates that such non-priestly service was available, particularly to women who chose to so dedicate themselves (e.g., Exodus 38:8). [sadly, Eli’s sons were guilty of taking sexual liberties with them (1 Samuel 2:22).] Even in the first century, Anna must have been one woman who had dedicated herself to the Lord’s service, since she “did not depart from the temple” (Luke 2:37).

Several contextual indicators support this conclusion. First, the two-month period of mourning that Jephthah granted to his daughter was not for the purpose of grieving over her impending loss of life, but over the fact that she would never be able to marry. She bewailed her virginity (bethulim)—not her death (11:37). Second, the text goes out of its way to state that Jephthah had no other children: “he was his only child. Besides her he had neither son nor daughter” (11:34). For his daughter to be consigned to perpetual celibacy meant the extinction of Jephthah’s family line—an extremely serious and tragic matter to an Israelite (cf. Numbers 27:1-11; 36:1ff.). Third, the sacrifice is treated as unfortunate—again, not because of any concern over her death, but because she would not become a mother. After stating that Jephthah “did with her according to his vow which he had vowed,” the inspired writer immediately adds, “and knew no man” (11:39). This statement would be a completely superfluous and callous remark if she had been put to death.

The text says nothing about his daughter being redeemed and allowed to serve in another form of devotion. Nothing.

The fact that she knew no man is not superfluous if she died.

Women were incubators and when they did not fulfill that role, their lives were deemed incomplete and lacking.

In other words, the girl didn't reach her potential.

That's the case either way, death or no death.

 

Fourth, the declaration of Jephthah’s own sorrow (11:35) follows immediately after we are informed that he had no other children (11:34). Jephthah was not upset because his daughter would die a virgin. He was upset because she would live and remain a virgin.

Where exactly does the text state this?

Wishful thinking and inserting qualifiers into the text is little more than excuse making based on expediency.

 

Hannah made a similar sacrifice when she turned her son over to the priestly direction of Eli for the rest of his life (1 Samuel 1:11). How many are willing to make such sacrifices? Actually, however, these tremendous acts of devotion were no greater than that which God requires of all Christians: to offer ourselves as spiritual burnt-offerings in service to God (Romans 12:1).

Hannah didn't vow to make a burnt offering, Jephthah did.

A burnt offering is pleasing to God, a sweet aroma.

If the apologist can remove any reference to a burnt offering from Judges 11 and wipe out the stipulations of Lev 27:28-29, I might be able to take their apologetic more seriously.

 

[Justin]

This was what i was wanting people, a discussion about it. That was all. I wasn't trying to bring about the end of the world.

[Justin]

 

By that logic half the shit we talk about on here is a waste of time. You have 344 examples to your credit.

 

Oh, and for someone that ends their premise with...

 

 

"Thoughts."   

 

 

Have you read sdelsolray's other 343 other posts? I haven't read all of yours, so who am I to judge and all, but still.

 

Do you know what a waste of time is in the Lion's Den or in Ex-C?

 

 

 

 

 

Discuss.

 

 

Listen i do not understand why a simple question is causing so much flack for me by a couple of you. If you don't want to discuss it then don't fucking read it, certainly don't comment and comment again. If all you and sdelsolray have is smart ass bullshit, why waste your time even bothering to comment?

 

All i wanted was for a discussion to get started and hopefully draw in some Christians so we can have a real good debate.

 

Furthermore, if you honestly have to wonder what i meant with my reply to sdelsolray, then i have to wonder about you. I was meaning most of the posts on this site deal with things from the Bible, things that we almost all agree are fiction yet we discuss them anyway.

[Kris]

It is important not to be so flippant when responding to topics in these forums.  I have had it happen to me as well.  If something is important enough for someone to want to discuss-- isnt that what these forums are for?  Some people are at a different point in deconversion than others and might think differently than the OP-- but making the person who wrote it feel stupid is not helpful.  Often, there are verses or stories in the bible that are confusing, and even though we don't believe the book itself, we might wonder why it is written. 

 

This is a story that has always bothered me-- I believe that god expected this poor dad to sacrifice his child-- and I don't really see any alternatives to the story, even if people want to wish them there.   God is an asshole.  Why did he have to create a son and then sacrifice this son to himself?  Why ask this dad to sacrifice this child?  Doesn't make any sense at all.  If god is supposed to be so intelligent-- why would he do dumb things like this?  That is my take on the story.  It was meant to prove that you have to obey god no matter what.  Thankfully, I don't think it is true, so I don't think that there was a father out there that actually had to live through this dilmena.  If it was me, I would have told god to kiss my ass.  And if he told me that he was going to sacrifice his own son (to himself!!), I would have told him that this was the stupidest thing I had ever heard in my life-- and what kind of idiot would do something like that?  This is probably why god doesn't talk to me-- he doesn't want to hear what I have to say!!

[Fernweh]

39 And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel,

40 That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileaditeur four days in a year.

 

Its pretty clear from these two verses at the end of Chapter 11 that Jephthah offered his daughter to the Lord as a burnt offering. If he didn't, then why would the daughters of Israel lament his daughter four days every year? I can only wonder at the purpose of such a morbid story. Is this supposed to be a warning to be careful with vows? I have no idea. As a believer, when I read such stories, I just glossed over them without really thinking them through. Now when I read the OT I just see genocide, infanticide, misogyny, and a very fickle narcissistic god.

 

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

If I was God, then the very moment that Jephthah's daughter walked out of the house, the ground would have shook, lightning would have flashed in the sky, and my booming voice would have said, "Oh hell no! You're not sacrificing her as a burnt offering! I won't let you go through with it!"

 

Then if he tried anyway, I'd make his daughter indestructible and give him rabbit ears.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I wasn't there when it didn't happen, so I can't say for certain whether she was literally killed or just sent away to a nunnery.  However, in the mythologies of the Greeks  and Mesopotamians of the time, when a king made a promise to sacrifice a family member, or when an oracle or prophet said that a sacrifice must be made, it generally meant the sacrifice was literally killed.  Therefore, since I suspect the writer of this myth may have been influenced by the myths of surrounding cultures, I would argue that the death was meant to be interpreted as a literal one.

 

 

[Justin]

I guess the biggest thing that threw me was human sacrifice was supposedly banned long before the events in Judges took place. But then again it's the Bible we're talking about.

[duderonomy]

Justin,

 

I thought you were saying that all of sdelsolray's posts were a waste of time, and I suppose then by extension so were mine. Then came your apologetic (well, not your's, but what you posted), and I guess I misunderstood and jumped the gun.

 

I didn't mean to cause you any ruffled feathers on what is really a good topic and thread.

 

Duder