The Universe

[themonkeyman]

Hi Folks,

 

I am a rather strict Athiest however if evidence is given I am willing to look back into Religion.  My Girlfriend was watching a Show that said that we all came from the Big Bang.  But her question is well what came before it and how did matter exist?!  Something had to have created it?

 

This Got me Thinking?  Is it possible that we were created by a God?

[bdp]

Not one that cares enough to, like, interact with us.  So not a relevant question, to my mind.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Born Again Athiest on here has posted a lot about how the math points to the existence of a multiverse, with "big bangs" happening repeatedly.  In essence, to posit that the multiverse is eternal is simpler than to bring God in as an eternal creator of our universe.  But others on here have much more background than I in these topics.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I'm afraid I am also not an expert in this field; I can be of some use once the discussion turns to how life emerged and evolved, but before that, I honestly don't know anything.  I agree with Ficino, you need Born Again Atheist and Bhim.

[mymistake]

As best as we can tell so far, reality is stranger than any human can imagine.  The gods are things that human could imagine 30,000 or more years ago.  If you had a problem you wouldn't ask advise from a witchdoctor who lives in a cave and cannot read or write.  You wouldn't turn to Bronze Age technology or culture for anything else.

 

The brightest minds on the planet are working on cosmology.  They don't have all the answers but then they don't have to have all the answers.  You only need all the answers if you claim to speak for a god.  If a god created everything then the god should know.  So priests that say "I don't know" lose credibility.  But for scientists "I don't know" is the beginning of the journey.  It's the starting place.  This is why so much religion is in opposition to science.  Religion cannot admit the very thing that starts humanity's best tool for discovering knowledge.

 

 

P.S.

As a layman I like the idea that black holes are other universes that form expanding singularities in their own time and space.  Oh I could never give you the math on it but there is a certain elegance to it that I find appealing.  

[flockoff]

Hi Folks,

 

I am a rather strict Athiest however if evidence is given I am willing to look back into Religion. My Girlfriend was watching a Show that said that we all came from the Big Bang. But her question is well what came before it and how did matter exist?! Something had to have created it?

 

This Got me Thinking? Is it possible that we were created by a God?

You're dealing with unknowns, so it's more useful to ask what's likely than what's possible; *anything* is "possible" if you're willing to accept lack of proof and explanation. Asking what's likely at least makes it likelier that you're getting to the truth.

 

We can observe from our world that complex systems and processes emerge from simpler ones. This is always or nearly always the case in understanding how complexity arises. If we follow this principle it's more likely that matter and energy simply existed in some crude form before the Big Bang and a gradual progression of natural processes.

 

What doesn't fit into this picture at all is the presence of some vastly complex, vastly intelligent super organism who has no beginning. The more complex you make god, the more begs to be explained about who or what created god.

 

Is a god still possible? Sure. But possibility doesn't mean much without probability. And the probability of a god such as described in the major religions is so thin as to say we might as well go on with our lives as though we had absolute certainty that no such being exists.

[chrisstavrous]

Depends what you call god, this word (god) always comes with baggage.

[Bhim]

Actually this is a question with a fairly simple answer.  Time is part of the universe, and comes into being along with the rest of it.  It doesn't make sense to speak of what came before the Big Bang anymore than it does to ask what is outside the universe.  In both cases the question sort of assumes that there is something outside of the universe to begin with, which is wrong by the defintion of "the universe."

 

That's the official scientific answer as well as my professional one.  But since this isn't the science forum, I'd like to explore a strongly relevant issue.  I don't think the Big Bang lmodel of the origin of the universe necessitates a creator deity, however I also wouldn't say that it precludes it.  But more to the point, it certainly provides absolutely no evidence of the claim that you'll go to an eternal hell if you don't believe in Jesus.  So I would ask: even if you were to look into religion again, why even bother with Christianity?  Christianity has enough problems even when you assume that a God exists.  Heck, it has enough problems even if you assume that the entire Old Testament is true.  I often say that my reasons for joining and leaving Christianity had nothing to do with the veracity of the religion's factual claims.  But you know what kept me up at night when I was a Christian?  It was the New Testament's shoddy use of the Hebrew Bible to support its own claims, as well as the generally poor quality of the New Testament.  The text consists largely of letters, it's written in Greek while claiming to be a continuation of the Hebrew Bible, and it contains four separate accounts of Jesus' life which contain different chronological orders of events.

 

I could believe that God exists, that he created the universe as described in the opening chapters of Genesis (however you choose to interpret that), and that he established a covenant with the nation of Israel through the prophet Moses.  And guess what?  I still would not be able to believe in Jesus.  The Hebrew Bible says nothing of the "New Covenant" in the way the Greek testament describes it.  Deuteronomy 13, which contains warnings agaisnt false prophets, seems to apply very well to Jesus.  And Deuteronomy 30 says clearly that it's possible for mortal men to obey the Torah, contrary to what Paul says in Romans.  New Testament quotations of the Old Testament are almost always taken out of context, often quoted from the Septuagint rather than the original text, and often blatently misquoted.  Indeed, Jews do believe in the Hebrew Bible (to varying degrees), and they almost universally reject Jesus for the reasons that I've described.

 

My point is this: while Christian apologists spend a lot of time trying to prove that God exists, the existence of God does nothing to bolster the claims of Christianity.  Keep in mind that most people in the world believe in God, but not that Jesus is God.  Believe in God or do not, I'm not trying to sway you either way.  But do not be afraid of evidence that makes you think a God may exist, because this doesn't at all mean that Jesus is that God.

[themonkeyman]

But this is where I am at now.  I was doing so well in my Cruisade in Athiesm but now this has caused me to trip to think that ultimately there is a God?  It worries me because of the Anger and things I have said should said God be the Christian God I am deeply fucked.

 

Can someone please give me some encouragement

[chrisstavrous]

But this is where I am at now. I was doing so well in my Cruisade in Athiesm but now this has caused me to trip to think that ultimately there is a God? It worries me because of the Anger and things I have said should said God be the Christian God I am deeply fucked.

 

Can someone please give me some encouragement

How can you find real proof of a god who is, invisible and living in a dimension you can't go till you die? thats why the only way to find the christian god is with faith, if your trying to work out this god with facts you'll fail.

 

The dice are loaded mate

[RogueScholar]

When I look at the universe, I find the principles that seem to explain it are always followed. I don't see crazy things happen with spectroscopy and I do not see these "rules" ever break. For example, I've never seen elemental Helium form strong covalent bonds with other atoms. If there is a god, it either follows the rules so strictly that intervention will not happen or this god is also bound by the same rules. Either way, it's like god does not exist even if one were to actually exist. Additionally, it's plausible that the universe may very well have come into existence with out any classical form of divine intervention. I would say a god hypothesis would mean we would have to make many more assumptions and I tend to fall back on Occam's razor and go with the fewest assumptions possible.

[Burny]

But this is where I am at now.  I was doing so well in my Cruisade in Athiesm but now this has caused me to trip to think that ultimately there is a God?  It worries me because of the Anger and things I have said should said God be the Christian God I am deeply fucked.

 

Can someone please give me some encouragement

 

Which version of the Christian God are you afraid you may have pissed off? I'm a former Reformer and they believe that God chooses whom he wills before they're even born - there's NOTHING you can do about your own salvation anyway. If you're meant to be saved, you're saved. If not - you're FUCKED. So I would suggest just relaxing and living an honest life which fulfills you. 

 

There are around 40,000 Christian sects so you're fucked no matter how you look at it! If you spent just 1 day looking into each and every Christian sect (never mind all the countless other ideas of God(s)), you'd die long before you finished. You're playing a version of Pascal's Wager which has been shown many times to be a fail.

 

Don't bother friend. LIVE FREE.

[mydisplayname]

But this is where I am at now.  I was doing so well in my Cruisade in Athiesm but now this has caused me to trip to think that ultimately there is a God?  It worries me because of the Anger and things I have said should said God be the Christian God I am deeply fucked.

 

Can someone please give me some encouragement

 

What came before the big bang? I don't know, but saying because I don't know it has to be god doesn't make sense to me.

 

If you want a warm fuzzy feeling think of it this way.

 

If god really existed and if the Christians picked the right one then I will still not worship him.

 

He is not in the least moral, doesn't practice what he preach, he's easily insulted,  he's kinda obsessed with sex and he hates women. 

 

Keep digging. The more you read and study religion the dumber it becomes.

[sandiego4me]

Hi Folks,

 

I am a rather strict Athiest however if evidence is given I am willing to look back into Religion.  My Girlfriend was watching a Show that said that we all came from the Big Bang.  But her question is well what came before it and how did matter exist?!  Something had to have created it?

 

This Got me Thinking?  Is it possible that we were created by a God?

 

I have two salient references for you:

 

1. Have you heard of the Anthropic Principal?  Read "The Fingerprint of God" by Hugh Ross, an astrophysicist who shows scientifically that a chance occurrence of this universe is impossible.  A fabulous read. 

 

2.  Have you heard of Anthony Flew?  He was, by all accounts, the most militant atheist of the 20th Century.  He changed his mind after studying the mind-boggling statistical improbabilities associated with evolution.  His mantra was always, "Follow the evidence where ever it may lead you."  His book "There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind" is an incredible read. 

[mymistake]

 

Hi Folks,

 

I am a rather strict Athiest however if evidence is given I am willing to look back into Religion.  My Girlfriend was watching a Show that said that we all came from the Big Bang.  But her question is well what came before it and how did matter exist?!  Something had to have created it?

 

This Got me Thinking?  Is it possible that we were created by a God?

 

I have two salient references for you:

 

1. Have you heard of the Anthropic Principal?  Read "The Fingerprint of God" by Hugh Ross, an astrophysicist who shows scientifically that a chance occurrence of this universe is impossible.  A fabulous read. 

 

2.  Have you heard of Anthony Flew?  He was, by all accounts, the most militant atheist of the 20th Century.  He changed his mind after studying the mind-boggling statistical improbabilities associated with evolution.  His mantra was always, "Follow the evidence where ever it may lead you."  His book "There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind" is an incredible read. 

 

 

Oh would you quit trolling.  Go to the Lion's Den where you belong.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

Hi Folks,

 

I am a rather strict Athiest however if evidence is given I am willing to look back into Religion.  My Girlfriend was watching a Show that said that we all came from the Big Bang.  But her question is well what came before it and how did matter exist?!  Something had to have created it?

 

This Got me Thinking?  Is it possible that we were created by a God?

 

I have two salient references for you:

 

1. Have you heard of the Anthropic Principal?  Read "The Fingerprint of God" by Hugh Ross, an astrophysicist who shows scientifically that a chance occurrence of this universe is impossible.  A fabulous read. 

 

2.  Have you heard of Anthony Flew?  He was, by all accounts, the most militant atheist of the 20th Century.  He changed his mind after studying the mind-boggling statistical improbabilities associated with evolution.  His mantra was always, "Follow the evidence where ever it may lead you."  His book "There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind" is an incredible read. 

 

 

Probability fail.

 

Both of these arguments begin with the assumption that the universe "decided" beforehand that mankind would be the pinnacle of evolution on one tiny planet within itself.  The universe made no such decision.  In an infinite universe filled with infinite possibility, the probability of any one thing in particular existing is almost guaranteed.   Therefore, starting with a presupposition and trying to work out the statistics afterward is a dishonest method.

[mydisplayname]

 

I have two salient references for you:

 

1. Have you heard of the Anthropic Principal?  Read "The Fingerprint of God" by Hugh Ross, an astrophysicist who shows scientifically that a chance occurrence of this universe is impossible.  A fabulous read. 

 

2.  Have you heard of Anthony Flew?  He was, by all accounts, the most militant atheist of the 20th Century.  He changed his mind after studying the mind-boggling statistical improbabilities associated with evolution.  His mantra was always, "Follow the evidence where ever it may lead you."  His book "There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind" is an incredible read. 

 

 

By all means read it. As an Atheist I say ask questions. A theist says don't question, but believe as a child would.

 

Sounds like these writers questioned god. An action punishable by eternal torture.

[HymenaeusAlexander]

2.  Have you heard of Anthony Flew?  He was, by all accounts, the most militant atheist of the 20th Century.  He changed his mind after studying the mind-boggling statistical improbabilities associated with evolution.  His mantra was always, "Follow the evidence where ever it may lead you."  His book "There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind" is an incredible read. 

 

"Incredible" is the right word. There are a quite a few inconsistencies in the backstory for that publication that call into question just how much of the book content the then eighty-one-year-old Flew was even aware of, much less wrote. In any case, it's fairly clear that Flew's philosophical god was not the Christian god.

 

Best case scenario for Christians looking to Flew as an example of an atheist that changed his mind is that he died a deist. Worst case is that a few opportunistic apologists wined and dined and took advantage of a man in the later stages of his life when he was not fully in possession of his mental faculties in order to shamelessly score one for their side.

[ExCBooster]

I read, about three months ago, a really good book on cosmology. A Universe From Nothing: Why There is Something Rather Than Nothing. Cliff's Notes version: ideas like "before" and "matter, or something" break down massively when we're talking about the extremes of physics at the time of the Big Bang, and, in short, it comes down to evidence that so-called "nothing" is, actually absurdly unstable, and guaranteed to spawn an "everything," all on it's own.